Player Made Harvester Paths
Im sure other people have experienced this, but when tweaking bases i've made the Harvester's path gets broken for no reason despite not being interrupted. Or when trying build a base the Harvester will want to walk into a wall despite a clear path being open to it to use. I think it may be worth while letting player's map out its path like any other guard npc so long as it follows the rules for a Harvester's path, i.e starting at its spawn point and ending at the GenMat treasure.
Comments
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The harvester needs to go.
It limits creativity so much it actually blows my mind.
Any base involving a grappling hook? Impossible. Any base involving pick a path, fake floors, any creative design but misdirection of attention? Impossible.
The harvester path should only be a requirement for beginner bases. So that they learn the basics of the game and dont get overstimulated by the possibilities.
Killcorridors are a direct result of creativity being hindered by the damn dog... I mean harvester.
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"It limits creativity so much it actually blows my mind.
Any base involving a grappling hook? Impossible. Any base involving pick a path, fake floors, any creative design but misdirection of attention? Impossible."
I am so sick of hearing that honestly. Think outside of the box maybe?
I put one of my funnier bases social:
Go have a look. Steam account name is "clownkrieger"
And before you say "impossible":
- I had someone fullclear and extract deathless, took him 12 minutes.
- Can that base be speedrun? Yes, someone did it in 33 seconds (that was before last upgrades though, might be a bit more difficult to escape now. I usually dont try to counter speedrunners on my fun outposts, but did at least a bit here, as far as the design allows. Speedrunning is not the point of this, as should be obvious.)
The harvester is a necessary part of the game imo. It assures that there is a valid path. It assures that people dont cheese more as they already do (and strategies to kill the harvester are "meta" anyways, some people even try to intentinally break the path).
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I have had some creative bases as well... one guy had like a room with lots of giant guys in a seperate room that would trigger if another enemy saw you... so they would path around through the exit, cutting off your escaperoute.
I don'T mean "no creativity is possible". But it is severely limited. There is only a hand full of ways to build a base. And 90% of them are narrow corridors where they are bombarded from every side.
Sure that is fun once in a while... but wouldnt it be MUCH more fun if we didnt have this restriction?
Removing the harvester would not only allow for more possibilities... you could STILL build the maps you can currently build.
Hell maybe even make it optional.
Are you a great raider and want to be creative? Great deactivate the dog and complete your map yourself.
Are you not such a great raider, but still want to make a brutal map? Great use the harvester. No need to complete it yourself.
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"Removing the harvester would not only allow for more possibilities... you could STILL build the maps you can currently build."
While this is right, sadly thats not how most of the gamers think and act. I would still build bases the way i do, yea, but others would use every exploity thing they can find to get an advantage above others.
The option to deactivate harvey or not would be ok, but only on raiders side - builders would still have to build a path thats at least doable for the games pathing mechanics.
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"The option to deactivate harvey or not would be ok, but only on raiders side - builders would still have to build a path thats at least doable for the games pathing mechanics."
Why? He literally adds no value to the game except a "safe" path.
I hate him. Every map of mine kills him outright :D The amount of times where I thought "If I could simply use this drop down as the intended path, that would be so cool" or something similar... is off the charts.
You might like him. Then activate him for your bases. But I don't want him. I want to build a map that I have to complete before uploading it. This means hidden entrances, dead ends and so on will finally be possible.
Ugh this dog is the bane of my builders existence :D
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"I want to build a map that I have to complete before uploading it. This means hidden entrances, dead ends and so on will finally be possible."
See, and there we have the problem: Get a big plot, build the craziest deathmaze ever, make a secret entrance with a safe path to the genemat that no1 can find in a reasonable amount of time (absolutely possible), finish it by using said path, put it online.
Other players will definetly have fun in that map...
Edit: We can agree to disagree btw, seems you play games/build for other goals then i do as well...
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I would like the ability to upgrade harvey with either spider or flight. Granted this could open an entire list of problems but I think it would produce interesting builds. My one comment regarding outpost is how do the developers ensure the outpost is beatable? Mario maker forces you (the builder) to complete level at least once before publishing.
Post edited by chezpizza on0 -
"See, and there we have the problem: [...]"
That is why accolades need to be far more important than kills.
I can already build impossible maps WITH harvey (how the devs call him). Because you don't have to beat it yourself....
That is why the impossibility is a different question and should be fixed with accolades.
But sheer creativity... the possibility to build whatever... is, sorry to say, very definately impaired with harvey. I wrote that in my feedback already, but just a handful of ideas that are impossible with harvey:
-platformer
-pick a path/puzzle
-vertical tunnels
-any irregular terrain
-grapplinghookmaps
-outdoormaps (because if harvey can get there you can simply grapple up there)
-fake floor maps (only possible if you kill him at the start)
and probably a lot more. Will it come with more exploits? Probably. If you can build 5 different ways you will have less issues than if you can build in 50 ways. But that is where accolades come in.
If it isnt fun, tell the builder his map seems to be unfun for raiders. To reset this "score" he has to delete all blocks on the map or hope that the changes he makes will turn the scoring around.
Now I can simply click "no fun" accolade and play the next map.
And yes we can be of different views. And I know that limiting the players options is often what sparks creativity. (Limitations make you think outside the box) But too many restrictions on a creative builder that leads to the same gameplay each and every time is also not fun. So making harvey optional as a builder is totally fine for me. (so either have a harvey path or beat it yourself) and now we have so many more different basetypes.
Spider&flying harveys would also be fun... but I am not sure that would solve anything over just making him optional and will bring SO many new problems :D
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I don't like idea of making harvey optional in outpost build. This would create a situation with folks making endless labyrinths with many false pathways and dead-ends. Forcing a player in an outpost to take 30+ minutes; I can see myself being lead down the wrong way with a minium number of traps just to throw me off.
Personally I feel like having harvey and having the creator beat the outpost should be required to help avoid impossible ones.
For more build variety the devs could introduce the following a gate trap with keys. The idea is its a block that blocks the player but allows harvey to pass through unless the player collects a key. Keys can be a pick up item like the Genmat or a designated guard via a mod. Of course like the main objective, key would need a clear path to obtain - perhaps circuit wiring, if an item.
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but... again... that is why accolades need to matter. Let players decide what map is fun and which isnt.
Built a stupid endless maze with only one correct path? 0 Accolades "Not Fun"; dont get recommended.
Or even better: show us the accolades of a map beforehand. So we can choose to ignore it. "50 plays, 1 finished raid and 5 accolades, all saying "brutal"? Yeah nah I'm good mate."
I grant you the following: If it is not intended for players to actually know beforehand if a map is good, then sure... harvey is an evil necessity to keep even more exploits and unfun mechanics being built.
But if you want to have a variety of different maps and actually have fun for a long time (many players, me included have already burnt out after 2 weeks because it is the same basetype over and over and over and over and over and over and over... I think I have seen nearly every baseidea. 95% of all maps are the same narrow corridor with misleading traps, or exploitbases. Only twice was I actually pleasantly surprised by a maptype.
- incentivise accolades through better rewards
- let players see stats (how often was it played, completed and how often did they die. basicially what the creator can already see) accolades (for free!) when chosing the map
- let us reviewbomb maps that use exploits or simply unfun mechanics (negative accolades and blocking the map so it doesnt show up again)
- better difficulty parameter. Only deaths per sucessful raid should count. Why do I care if there are 500 corrosive cubes? But 10 traps and guards are enough to stop nearly everyone.
that way exploitative bases and crappy mapdesign will automaticially be disincentivised.
Also custom challenges would be awesome. Like "beat this map within 50 seconds" or "deflect 3 traps within 8 seconds" or something... even a boring map can be fun with extra challenges :)
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Not disagreeing ... accolades should matter and they do matter...sometimes. They just aren't enough to disincentivize bad level designs. Like how many negative votes is needed to remove the outpost from the pool of playable maps? 10, 15, 500 votes? All the while the builder still gains resources from the map until its removed. Then they could simply make a new map, same design and back in the system it goes.
Then there is the long term effect, when more folks get into the grind mentality, especially since MYM is about collecting resources either by building or raiding.
In time, builders will design their outpost to get the most kills whereas raiders will most likely care about speed runs and ranking. With a worst case result, of lots almost impossible outposts from builders and/or lots of down votes from speed runners unless they deliberately quiting the raid if they spend more than 2 or 3 minutes on an outpost, if they dont skip voting altogether.
All this to say, that harvey and rng maps are great ways to force less homogenized designs for at least until we learn how cheese it. Removing both of these limitors would create more unfun designs because everyone wants to build a gotcha /lost woods base... people are not as uniquely creative as they think they are.
To the original poster, adding more upgrade options to harvey is probably more worthwhile, like enabling him to climb up walls, go stealth or attack the raider if they get to close than creating a custom path.
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From the last steam news on the MyM page, just saw:
"While an Outpost grants no rewards when it’s in the Social Active State, this custom game mode affords some extra flexibility – neither minimum defenses nor a valid Harvester path are required."
Thought about that today while messing with the social feature, you can see beforehand if there is a harvey path or not.
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