Great Update!
Finally I can use both custodians again! No loss of rank no matter how many times you die. New mod for Warmongers. Change to prestige points. Just good stuff all around.
Edit: The intent behind the change to outposts being refreshed when entered/exited was good but it turns out the execution was horrible. Players shouldn't feel obligated to constantly refresh their outposts to get raiders. But only having an hour worth of raid time per prestige level is horrible.
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What's so great to make challenging game more casual and less emotionally rewarding? Both things like Cube's exploit and rank penalties worked just fine to bring more tension to the game, more challenge and more fun in the end.
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The cube exploit was a bug that got fixed. Whether you liked the bug or not is irrelevant. The rank penalties didn't add anything to the game. It didn't really effect me since I easily got to master even with penalties, but no penalties encourages players to actually attempt higher difficulty outposts.
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For you. For the majority of players, that was not their experience. Rank felt punishing, not rewarding. And the Second Wave Corrosive Cube bug was frustrating. I've been enjoying the game a lot more today than I was over the weekend thanks to the changes.
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Cube exploit was just a cheap copy-cat trap cope for free kills, it turned most builders lazy.
Rank penalties would punish you for winning. I got out of bases, 0 death, 3 minutes clearing traps and got -24 points
People would actively leave after 1 death because the map wasn't a free win.
Brutal maps were actively avoided by the playerbase because Normal and dangerous offered easier ranks, which pushed long term players into bullying new players in normal with cube exploits to get points.
I spent an entire month in brutal and I was stuck in silver, I then wasted 4 hours in normal and ranked to gold 4. So much for challenge.
Now you can actually challenge the maps without leaving or using alt-f4 exploits to keep rank.
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if people don't find brutal difficulty fun for it's own merits they shouldn't be there. i don't care if i get less raids or kills if it means yall don't whine. but now i have to deal with every dungeon having no creativity plasma spam boxes cause thats SOOOOO much better than the fun of hidden traps. so because it was too hard for all of you normies, the rest of us who enjoy challenge got shafted.
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You do realize that the current rank system was heavily punishing base builders, right?
The ability to lose rank is why Brutal Bases did not get raided that much to begin with; and I often found it more profitable to make Normal Bases or Advance Bases because I got significantly more profits and significantly more raids.
Less people raiding. => Less profits. => Bases becomes harder to upkeep. => Less incentive to build.
The easiest way to solve this is by creating the least restrictive environment for players. People can now raid Brutal Bases without being punished significantly, giving time for people to actually learn and improve at the game as well, but leading to more raids. Brutal Base builders can get to work without worrying so much. It overall benefited the game.
My point is that the old rank system caused a lot of issues with the game. You got to look at things from a bigger picture.
Also if you want a challenge, the challenge is still there, want to beat a Brutal Base without dying? Nobody is stopping you, go ahead and try it. You can even self-enforce other challenges on yourself as well. That's the beauty of games, you can play it however you want.
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Its a bad update !!!
The ranked is now really easy 90% of players will be master just for playing...
The "exploit bug" of the magma make deversity in outpost and its easy to counter when you know the game. But now all the outpost will be a death room...
Why developers casu the game? The communauty is the hardcore gamers not the guy who launch the game 1 day in a mounth...
Oh and we cant relaunch your outpost for more attack its a bad Idea again cose the guy who launch him outpost and go afk 24h will be same the guy who rest on the game all the day for looking replay.
Sry for my english
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If you want edit the gameplay pls add new traps not delete interesting mecanics..
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Well... fisrt the comunity is not only the hardcore players!!! in the contrary it's the casual playerbase that holds most games alive.
Deathrooms are now not soo bad anymore because - oh yeah no deathpenalties. I don't think that there will be more killboxes out there.
Ranking.... It's a Seasonal Ranking and there is not reason to get first place bcause you don't get something extra for that.
The problem if have with the update is that 3 of my outpost which got 10-20 raids in a cycle of 12 hours now get 1-3 raids since the update. No clue if the update is the cause. Two of the 3 have enough prestige to upgrade through to rank 10 - i just don't have enough synthite. I raided outposts all dificulties in the last 24h often so i don't get it why suddenly traffic breaks down....
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I am not agree with you who buy dlc or skins? Who play the game all the days? the casu or the players who love the game?
I am agree deathrooms is not bad but if all the outposts is deathrooms its not fun...
And for ranking dont need rewards for have fun with the challenge but now we have no challenge so its useless
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i never had problems with income or upkeep. and i openly explained to everyone how to fix their issues with it. my bases got raided plenty, and i only raid brutals unless they're all bugged with 0M because i don't want the risk of a maze, not a fan of mazes. raiding brutals was about being better not about rank, rank came with being better. they made it so anyone can just crawl to the top with no setbacks. it's completely devalued anyone who go there while dealing with the difficult content and suffering setbacks. what punishes builders is the raiders mindset that everything has to be easy for them. i ran the numebrs, out of 3 normal bases i got about 58 raids between 2 maps that just said "XP" on the front, and 10 on an art build that looked like a dragon. the playerbase doesn't want challenges, they want free stuff. and players like that are the ones advocating for no penalty for leaving.
at least in the old system people were encouraged to try at least 3 time before tying with the penalty for leaving, now we are going to see a flood of 1st death rage quits since there is no penalty for it. we won't see more kills or activity in brutal, we'll see the same thing we've always seen but now they'll leave at 1 instead of 3.
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Its not ranked anymore its juste xp
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Nitpicking about one thing on the update list that says
"Point totals are modified by your rank relative to the opposing Builder or Raider. For example, a Bronze Raider completing a Master’s Outpost stands to gain more points than if they were to complete the Outpost of another Bronze player."
Thing is there is no way to see the rank of the Builder whose outpost you're raiding. I haven't noticed any difference in the points I get on a deathless outpost run over what I was getting prior.
I admit I was prone to force closing the game on (cheap) deaths and out of frustration then I got an update... No, I just realized I was being incredibly (insert choice word) about things that I had no control over and taking a game way too seriously. (one of my many things I need to improve on) There is still plenty of challenge to the game and there will be plenty more ups and downs as things go on. A good upside from the update is I no longer actively avoid outposts where one of the top two traps are Corrosive cubes and dared take on a brutal outpost with a Harvey path of 900 and some odd meters. (the length is what was brutal on that one)
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"If you want edit the gameplay pls add new traps not delete interesting mecanics.."
When you say "mechanics" you actually mean bugs. They shouldn't leave bugs in just because a small group of players like them. Hell, they shouldn't leave bugs in even if the vast majority like them.
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Bug or not its good for creativity and diversité in outposts
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This is a game that has built in unlimited diversity. If you feel that you don't have enough options for building an outpost then you lack creativity. As long as this game is supported then those options will only continue to grow.
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Dude i think i am a fcking good builder i have 2 outposts with 35 artistic and fun so i know what i Say... But more option u have more creativity u Can do
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But it's not?
More options - more creativity, true. But if you have hundreds of options and only one THIS effective there's no creativity anymore. If you don't place corrosives to cover every possible trap you effectively loose possibilities to kill raiders. Hence, there are tons setups that could be considered as creative (without corrosives) but end up like "oh that second wave strat again".
It could be mod with coded logic, could be new special kind of trap with pros and cons, could be anything intended and balanced (i.e. good for certain setups only and bad for other situations) but not this bug with no downsides except the capacity. Using second wave cubes was always a good decision no matter what setup you use and idk how can it be good for diversity and creativity if objectively everyone should use it :/
They'll add new stuff to help with diversity and creativity, maybe they'll even use this bug as inspiration but we definitely don't need this thing as it was before patch.
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Yes its better death rooms....
This game is made by comu! If the comu find a new feature let them enjoy it !!
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can we fix the bug where raiders can pull bolts through solid walls?
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You are not the comu!!! There are as many opinions in the comu as there are players.
Just stop framing you point of view (which may or maybe not "good") as the opinion of the majority of a comu where more than half are mute players which never will join any discussions, they still belong to the comunitiy. You can't possibly know what "the comunitiy" wants because there is NO and there will never be unity in the playerbase about this.
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The mute players dont cry because they are bad and have no idea how to counter a "impossible" glitch... Only the cryer talk i represent the mute comu who enjoy the game before the casu update
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we feel the same way about the people who got corrosive targeting removed rather than made into a mod with a cost. they were vocal, they were not the majority but complained loudly enough that it got taken away. you say he shouldn't frame his point of view as the majorty, why do you assume that you're the majority opinion? just because it was removed? just means that faction was louder. it's also possible that devs made a judgement error out of fear of losing their game because of that vocal population. doing things that aren't good for the game out of fear is something that happens. negative stimuli is often stronger than positive so it takes a lot more of us supporting things to make them into balanced cost adjusted mechanics, but it takes less effort to just bend and remove it entirely. there are plenty of people beyond just momolepro that were in support of that removed function. we just didn't feel a need to be as vocal because we thought it was balanced enough it wouldn't be considered for full on removal. opaque needed fixing, that i agree on but removing targeting entirely i disagree with wholeheartedly and i look forward to when we get the player support to bring it back as a mod.
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Sry my english is Bad hard to truely explain but i agree 100% off MadMoeZel <3
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Never thought i would find people defending exploits for the sake of game health.
But... here we are.
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all exploits have the potential to become mechanics, the only separation is dev intention and that can be swayed. do you disagree that those statements are true?
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Oh sure, but the second wave lava exploit was driving players away. Because a lot of people dodged bases when they contained lava cubes. Simply because they feared the exploit.
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they'll fear "legitimate mechanics" and quit too, did you not consider that? if the issue is fear causing them to leave they need to conquer that fear or they won't improve. taking away builders tools instead of improving their functionality will push builders away. we already don't like grabbing ammo through our walls or kiting our guards outside where they can't pursue raiders to get free kills. there seems to be a ton of consideration for the raider that the builder is supposed to cater to, but where are our fixes against raider exploitation? builders complaints get ignored because there are less of us. it's easy to be a raider and just hop in and out of any dungeon with no penalty. builders spend hours crafting things and get minimal raides, get bad mouthed by the raiders who abuse their dungeons and exploit their own mechanics then call the builder an exploiter cause they had a one way door, or 2nd wave acid. it's a double standard. so if all you want to see is copy and paste basic youtube builds, sure, take away out tools and encourage quitting instead of fleshing out our tools and encouraging learning.
we could have given raiders a tenacity bonus that rewarded them for finally completing something with many attempts or times spent, we could have given grace periods for leaving outposts without fully removing penalties. as some point there needs to be accountability that a player made an active decision to do something and there SHOULD BE consequences to that. but since the patch, outside of socials, i've had ONE person die more than twice in a dungeon and continue playing, because why continue playing? theres no penalty to quitting and finding something easier. why bother learning when you can just go play free XP maps (i have 4 up because of how many raids they get, i don't even bother making art builds or fun things anymore for normal, they just don't get the raids that XP maps do) yet these are the people that got catered to. i don't care of those players are driven away, i don't want to share a playerbase with them anyways. anyone who willingly hunts down XP maps in a game like this honestly makes me cringe.
so i make my XP maps the most unpleasant and unrewarding experience i can, to discourage that type of map hunting. those raids being selected takes raids away from art builds and builds that actually challenge the player to learn and completely ruin the point of the game "here, free stuff in a post-apocalyptic wasteland based around thieving genetic material to survive" and if those players are driven out, XP maps will stop getting raids and we'll see more REAL maps.
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Where did i say that i had the same opinion as the majority - if you read exactly what i wrote - i never gave an opinion to anything but the framing issue i had with those postings. Because I see good arguments on both sides and there are some nice tries to find a compromise from both sides.
And yes you are of course right - the same goes for argumentation in any direction. As i stated there will never be a majority for anything in a playerbase because there are as many opinions as players in the base.
To be clear my personal point of view is:
It 's was not intended to function that way, but it's used in that way - remove it because it's an exploit doesn't matter if it makes sense or not. Simply out of principle. If maps where not player generated but by the system or dev's i would do the same. It's not to personally curb someone or get a advantage over someone. Bend the rules as much as you can yes - but using an exploit is more like using a already broken rule as a base for meta outpostdesign.
Also because as everything s.o. uses excessively it get's boring fast.
I think that perhaps they should get a modified version of said trapcombos in the game, because yes it's stupid that raiders can see and shoot through the cubes but traps just sit there like ducks and don't see the player. Maybe make it possible with some kind of number restriction or only a type of trap that can detect through them. And maybe we will get something like that in the future. I mean they seem to at least try to listen to complains however we as players may personally feel about those.
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I sometimes join those free XP maps just to troll them but one like yours would get accolades from me and maybe a death or 5 if its "nice". ;)
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All bugs should be removed. How is this hard to understand?
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I agree. Not only did the raiders leave in fear of the second wave exploit, the builders that were just using lava cubes got no raids for one reason or another and also left.
The whole rank system was a mistake. It got partly sorted with the last patch, but never should have been a part of the game. It hammered "dying to often lets you lose ranks" into peoples minds and hitting alt-f4 whenever something isn´t rewarding became like a natural move to some people. Which is totally contrary to what the trailers always suggested.
On top, the economy is build to favor raiders over builders. Someone who spams grenades during a raid, will never spend as much in grenades as he gains in parts during the raid. Someone who tries to keep a base running without raiding will hit a wall after a short amount of time. Since no base, doesn´t matter how successful it is, will be self sufficient. Which partly led to the flood of kill boxes, since builders felt forced to get as many kills in the hope to keep a base running, which then led to the alt-f4 behavior at the release of the game.
Raiders going for free XP maps could also simply be a result of the synth starved playerbase. Which is sadly the thing that didn´t get fixed with the patch (instead, consumables were made more expensive).
At release i build some (i think) nice maps, that looked good and appealing. Spend hours on them. They lasted a little over a week. While i understand that there always needs to be a influx of new maps, having a map that cost you hours and hours just become useless feels... kinda frustrating. Maybe there should be another accolade or something for amazing maps. That would allow maps to continue their live circle beyond lvl 10, if enough people give that map a upvote. It would certainly motivate builders.
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bases could be self sufficent in the previous matchmaking setup but i question that in the current one. i was actively generatinvg about 1000 synthite a day, doing MAYBE 4 raids for a good week and a half. the trick was using bases that had overdrive to generate additional genmat to get the resource rewards for leveling up chimera.
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The economy has to favor raiders over builders because if it didn't people would raid even less. The game was never intended for build only/ raid only players. They specifically stated that it was intended that you build AND raid!!!
There are no system sanctioned bots in this game but guards. So people HAVE to raid to essentially get raids on their own outposts.
I like to build too but i accept that i have to raid to so that other builders get traffic and hopefully raid other outposts and generate traffic for my outpost too. This here is the problem, a few only builders would be sutainable but not many and who to choose. If you want a game that grants you raids on your outposts while not raiding yourself you have to have bots or many "raid only" players more in the mix as "builder only" both are not in the game! Especially if a builder can have more than one active map.
The same with the difficulty brackets and traffic - if people only run normal/dangerous but build more brutals than there will be not enough traffic to sustain all those maps which won't get enough raiders.
Yes we can all build only normal /dangerous outposts but then those brackets would have an "overflow" of outposts too and the traffic for a single outpost will go down even if the amount of raids overall in that bracket stays at the same level.
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In the release stream, they said that people can play how they want. If they want to raid only, then thats possible, just as building only.
Builders got the short side of the stick.
The argument that we need far more raiders than builders also doesn´t hold up, when most raiders speed run bases. Hell, i´ve seen bases getting raided in 41 seconds. A raider can finish dozens of raids in an hour.
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"Just stop framing you point of view (which may or maybe not "good") as the opinion of the majority"
he never said his opinion was the majority either, but you treated it as if he did. he spoke as part of the community. i did the same thing you did when addressing them. fair?
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they took away the punishment for quitting. just go loot open tombs and quit for no penalty. there you go, building with minimal raiding required. you can make 2000-3000 synthite an hour doing that if you focus large normal maps that aren't giant boxes/mazes. going into any of your outposts then leaving it again resets the list so you can keep hunting. remember to abandon after you quit a base.
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Its not the same thing. You are still required to raid. Just with less effort.
People asked for builders to beat their own maps, in order to prevent kill boxes. But this wouldn´t work, because some people are good raiders and others are good builders. Game was announced as being able to play one side without the other one. Which is only possible for the raider. Yes, you can farm mats by doing that. BUT some people simply don´t like to raid at all. They just prefer to build their bases and are amazing in doing so.
There is no shame in only wanting to play one side. Just as raiders shouldn´t be forced to build bases in order to progress, builders shouldn´t be forced to raid to progress. If someone wants to do both things, than great! But if one doesn´t, the game shouldn´t punish for that.
I´ve seen some amazing maps, where i thought i should have 3 accolades to award. Because the map was simply beautiful. I´ve also seen lazy maps that were probably build in 5 minutes by someone who doesn´t like to build at all. No one should be forced to play a role he doesn´t like.
Ranks are meaningless. They were meaningless before the patch and now even more. Its one thing i´d remove from the game without hesitation.
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you'd remove it, i wouldn't. i wanted to make the climb take longer, i wanted a grace period of 45-60 seconds for you to decide if you wanted to do an outpost or leave for free, but then after that, you made the choice to stay, i wanted the penalty for quitting after that to be double. i wanted to raise the minimum rank for master. that would have made master rank mean more because quitters wouldn't be able to climb. normals wouldn't provide enough to climb fast enough to do anything but barely climb in at the end of the season for the cosmetics.
both in the previous setup and the current setup, they still treat someone who struggled through a challenge dying multiple times identically to someone who quit without even trying or trying only one time. they get +0
someone who beat a hard challenge, and a quitter, are equal in the eyes of behavior. until they reward you in some way for completion regardless of death, the casual players won't branch into harder content. They have no inscentive to do so, they DO NOT WANT TO GET STRONGER. they want to just roll through whatever is easiest to them.
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Its a pve game. The rank system, in any form, isn´t a reflection of actual skill.
Previous version was just frustrating instead of rewarding. Beating a tough challenge can be rewarding, IF the player feels motivated in trying. Motivation is the key word. In my eyes, the game isn´t exactly motivating for new players. Which explains why it has such a small retention rate.
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THE GAME IS DEAD!!
Since last update nobody attack my outposts...
I try to put a normal, dangerous, and brutal with a nice picture click bait and i have 2 attack each in 24h...
Before last update i have no problem with that.. + the new ranking system the game is dead !!!
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the skill is in consistently going up at a steady pace having penalties for quitting and failing meant that you can only climb if you consistently win, and leaving sets you back. that makes rank related to skill. so yeah, with no loss, rank isn't a reflection of skill. but i prefer when it is, so i'm for increasing penalties for quitting. you don't have to agree, thats fine. it may be PvE, but the total number of rank when compared to someone with equal time IS a comparison of skill in many cases. 5 hours of normals compared to 5 hours of brutals, the brutal player probably has higher rank. especially when extrapolated to 500 hours because as you run harder content your skill grows consistently, the same can not be said for spam running normals
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Its just grind, not skill. Even IF it was a reflection of skill, you can´t see the other persons rank. You can´t see that the person who died 20 times on your outpost was Bronce rank 2.
What really could be motivating though, would be building up on the tournaments they held. Like sure, the tournaments were just random streamers. But it was interesting to watch. I could imagine having an actual monthly tournament. With some kind of unique reward.
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If you want the 'Master Rank' to mean more, then you remove all tangible rewards from it, otherwise players are pressured to grind it out for content.
It's not a true ranking system anyway, it's only a measure of how much you grind, and that was the case before they removed negative rank points. DBD has the same system with it's Grades, you can lose pips, but it's still not a true ranking system. The fact that you can game the system by abandoning, or rerunning raids makes the entire 'ranking' part of it absolutely meaningless.
Ranking systems only work in games that have a defined "win condition", so that you can accurately gauge performance between players. This game will never have that, because it's not a true competitive game, any more than you can say The Sims is competitive if you decided to rank players based on Simoleons acquired. 'Good' Sims players would be able to acquire more Simoleons faster than 'bad' Sims players, but everyone could do it eventually.
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if you play 100 brutals and clear them all at 200 rank gained and your average brutal run is 3 minutes you get 20,000 rank in 5 hours barring load times. if you play 300 normals and clear them all at (i think it's 63 rank for normal??) with an average runtime of 60 seconds (which i don't think people are doing regularly i honestly think it's closer to 2.5 minutes for normal clears for most people.) you get 18900 rank over 5 hours barring load time.
brutal raider has harder content, takes longer, takes more skill, and leaves them higher rank.
dying once in normal nukes the rank to i think 13? in brutal its about 120 for one death. so even one death destroys your ability to grind rank in normals.
if you leave that normal, you have no punishment now, if you had left that normal before you'd have -30. if you consistently leave normals, you don't climb rank because you don't have the skill to complete normals. if you consistently leave every map, you don't have the skill to identify your skill level. if you consistently gain rank then you consistently choose challenges that are in your skill range, complete them without quitting and climb the rank. and the higher skilled player will complete higher difficulty outposts and get a higher rank for the same time investment.
how is there no skill in having higher rank when compared to someone of equal time?
"You can´t see that the person who died 20 times on your outpost was Bronce rank 2."
Well, HOW ABOUT WE ADD IT!!!!
just because you don't interact with others doesn't mean the rest of us are isolationists. i know many other players in the game both in and out of master bracket, we compare our runs, run the same maps, challenge one another. and we do still use rank as a way to know if the person playing the map is a good metric. so i would not say a map that was easy for Master rank 2000 is going to be easy for silver 2. why, BECAUSE MASTER ACTUALLY HAS A SKILL RELATED TO IT. is there some cracked silver 2? yes of course there is. but if i had a map easy for a silver 2, i wouldn't expect it to stop 90% of people who are gold+ because, RANK HAS A SKILL ASSOCIATED. skill is very often related to experience gained by doing things, experience gained by doing things is often increased over time, and rank largely gained by time spent in game. when being killed repeatedly, and leaving had a penalty, quitters and REALLY bad people would never reach master because they kept getting set back, there was a skill floor. thats gone now. so ANYONE can be master which means anyone under the top 1700ish right now probably came in without penalties and their skill is in question as a result of the ability to crawl forward with no punishment for cherry picking via spam leaving. but people in the top 1000 are probably experienced players who many not know everything there is, but can get through just about any problem put in front of them quickly, calmly, and efficently.
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I don´t consider myself to be very skilled. I get a ton of micro freezes when i start playing. For example, the other day i died to a spike trap, when i stood in front of it, the recticle was red and i just pressed m1 for the sword.
Yet i climbed to gold 2 before the rank rework. Ranks are just grind related, not skill related.
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Tell me, what would make rank skill related?
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Its a pve game. So nothing would make rank skill related.
Hell, even in a pvp game like DbD, rank has so little to do with skill, that they ultimately removed ranks.
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If outposts weren't player created, but created by the devs, rigorously playtested and balanced, with difficulty assessed in house.
As it stands, it's essentially an asymmetrical pvp game, much like DBD. The win condition is disconnected from player skill, as both sides can win or lose any given 'encounter' at the same time, and can give each other free wins.
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here we have a disagreement on PvE or PvP
i'm on the PvP side of the fence
a player made the dungeon, a player set the traps, a player set the guards, a player set patrols, and a player runs that dungeon. at every point a player was in control of what was in play and how it was responded to.
@Tsulan, is it the fact that you think it's PvE that makes you say there is no skill related rank? does that not do a disservice to any competitive puzzle solver? coming to a solution quickly an efficiently is very much a skill in my
@Seraphor, "As it stands, it's essentially an asymmetrical pvp game, much like DBD. The win condition is disconnected from player skill, as both sides can win or lose any given 'encounter' at the same time, and can give each other free wins."
The statement that both side can win or lose any given 'encounter' applies both to this and head-on games that we see like OW, or LoL, RL, and any player could potentially get enraged at something and then give the other side free wins. and that behavior is displayed in a decrease in rank because they made an emotional, unskillful play that gave up their chances at victory. (giving up) thats something inherent to any skill based ranking system, the ability to backslide if you can't keep up your performance. the skill is in consistency. you can not consistently outpace other players in the ranking without both skill AND time invested.
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