Here's some reasons why Hex:Ruin Nerf is GOOD, not bad
The new Ruin changes will probably be really good, despite still being tied to a Hex. (Hex's are another discussion) Ruin v1.02 is fundamentally an unhealthy perk to begin with. Why?
- It is inconsistent. It's either cleansed all game or left up all game and good Survivors power through it rendering it useless
- New players are turned off by it, and maintaining a playerbase with new players is important. It's also just annoying try-harding basic skill checks too.
- New Hex: Ruin could open up opportunities and potential for further core game balancing
Hex: Ruin was never good. It got cleansed, it got worked through. I'm not sure WHY 80% of the Killers in Red Rank used Ruin when they could get a lot more value from perk builds synergizing with their power instead.
The inconsistency and the ability to completely ignore this perk made it futile. yet all you Killers kept using it and getting survivors who don't know HOW to do great skillchecks and claiming you got value from it. You just went against people who were bad at the game. Good survivors find Ruin within minutes of the game, or just hit greats.
The problem within the game lies within toolboxes and Map RNG, but that's another discussion as well.
I'm sure this new version of Ruin will be healthier, and there's still some potential. Test it out, let it maybe hit live, and let the meta of the game shift and evolve. I, for one, am tired of having ruin in 80% of my matches anyway.
Comments
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That's right. Ruin was not really that helpful for you killers, that's why they made it less frustrating for survivors. Stop crying and adapt.
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I think it opens the playing field for the slowdown perks.
Now we don’t have to constantly compare it to ruin, but rather, we can modify them to be all equal to one another.
Not to mention that it significantly shakes up the meta, which is something I like to see.
I wanna see the same thing with survivor perks, just the game in general.
It’s annoying when all the meta builds are practically the same.
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Mate, we all know the good parts of the change.
The issues are in the stuff surrounding this change.
In how they took this entire update only looking from a low ranking survivor angle.
In how they removed the most effective early game perk from the game and replaced it with a bad one. (Yes, even with the inconsistency of ruin, you can't deny it's effect)
In how they changed a killer only looking from a survivor point of view.
In how the 3 benefits to the new ruin are only benefits to survivors
In how killers apparently need to work for their bonuses but survivors don't.
In how they changed ruin for being overused but didn't look into WHY it was used.
Please, actually read what people are saying.
Gonna leave you with a quote from scott jund
"I didn't need ruin to win, I needed it to play nice" (may not be word for word what he said. But the sentiment is there)
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I get why people are upset, they have been relying on it for years, but plenty of killers do fine without it. Long term, this will be good for the game. We might have to be a little patient though.
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I've tested the new ruin and it is garbage. Like, absolute garbage. Regression takes ages. If gen stays UNTOUCHED for 20sec it takes solo survivor only 10 to bring it back up. Even 3 gen situation old ruin performed way better if it stayed up to that point. Adding to the fact that it does absolutely nothing early game, the perk's actually dead. Should be renamed to Hex: Gen Kick.
Old Ruin removed during the first 20sec: possible iota of value (maybe 1 missed check)
New ruin removed in the first minute: literally zero value.
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I get that, but I think that now it’s safe for perks to just not be “ruin” level.
You know?
I feel like gen rush wouldn’t be such an issue IF we looked at how gens are done.
Now that ruin is gone, this will definitely show that games go too fast even after the changes, which will likely bring about hopefully new changes or objectives.
If we want to figure out why gen rush exists, we should understand that speed and reasons why gens are done is so important.
Ruin was holding the game back— in my eyes. Now we can move forward and bring about newer changes; and hopefully make a game where a perk isn’t required to have fun.
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Reason 1 - it just works
Reason 2 - pretty good job so far
Reason 3 - just give me money
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No, I don't know.
That's like saying it's ok to remove bloodlust now since the maps will eventually get reworked and bloodlust won't be needed. It isn't. Until the time where bloodlust isn't needed come, it should stay. Same with ruin and gen speed. If the gen speed isn't looked at asap, these will be really bad times for high ranking killers.
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If 80% of people were running it it was obviously a decent perk. They used it so they could run killers like Clown, Legion, and trapper and not have to play mean to have a good chance at winning. It gave people time to find someone at the start and get the ball rolling. 30 seconds doesn't sound like much but with so many gens to patrol I was happy with the perk making at least 2 people stay off gens to look for it (especially playing Legion because that led to free hits). Let's face it the replacement is just a means to an end, it's worthless and everyone knows it, with normal hex totems there is no late game and it's bogus. To all the people saying "just use corrupt" why would I do that, so you block off three gens that just means survivors instead of having to search the whole map for a totem are just gonna walk 20 feet to the nearest gen like nothing happened. Dying light is trash, thana is well... thana, Pop is great but it's nice to have something else.
(Jailed because I called someone out for using a blatant smurf account to attack and insult people)
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Naw adding objectives or changing gen times will be to frustrating to newer players so the devs won't be into that.
They prefer to balance around low tier play rather than hi tier like every other game in existence.
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I feel like the real issue is being lost when I read post like yours, and many others.
Sure, there are people upset by the Ruin change specifically, but they are REALLY upset about the fact the change is 100% aimed at Survivors. Even if they don't really realize it.
This is the real issue of what is and has happened. The way they explained why they were making the change, how it is beneficial, and why Ruin was run, it all seemed like it was thought up and written by a Killer main making a satire piece poking fun at BHVR and their perceived leaps of logic and Survivor Bias. But its it was actually written and presented by BHVR.
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This is a bad take, running Ruin right now is a coin flip of whether or not you're going to get value from it; problem is Killer mains need to, or at the very least feel the need to run it as insurance for them to be able to play the game.
The inconsistency and the ability to completely ignore this perk made it futile. yet all you Killers kept using it and getting survivors who don't know HOW to do great skillchecks and claiming you got value from it. You just went against people who were bad at the game. Good survivors find Ruin within minutes of the game, or just hit greats.
Even if the ruin gets broken within the first couple of minutes, that's usually enough time to get the ball rolling in your favor. I play Legion and my ruin gets broken early all the time, however by the time that's happened I've probably downed 1 or even 2 people so it doesn't matter, the early game has been controlled and the game is going in my favor. I literally cannot play the way I want to because killers like Legion, Clown, Doctor, Leatherface among other killers have ZERO control of the early game and that's when the deciding factors of the trial take place. When literally taking a coinflip on value is a better option than running 4 normal perks, you don't think there's a bigger problem at play here than just, "this perk isn't fun to play against?" I do not want to play high tier killers, running Ruin is an easy way to give myself a fighting chance at red ranks.
Even if players are hitting greats every time, that's still progress being halted in my favor, the game is still be slowed even if by a tiny bit. Ruin is still doing it's job.
The problem within the game lies within toolboxes and Map RNG, but that's another discussion as well.
You literally just answered your own question. You dislike getting ruin in 80% of your games yet you hit the nail on the head on why you are getting that result. Gens are getting finished too quickly, the maps are too big, the gens are too far apart. If you're not playing Billy, Nurse, Spirit, or Freddy you physically have no way of pressuring these gens in the early game. If you can't control the early game, then mid to late game hardly matter because as long as you don't have Peanut Brains on the survivor team that can't hold down M1, the gens will be finished.
If you know that Killers are running ruin in response to inherent problems with the mechanics of the game, why is this a question for you? Why do you think nerfing Ruin is a good idea when these problems STILL exist in the game?
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Having a perk that is a "coin flip" is not healthy for the game when it comes to something like Ruin that fundamentally changes how a mechanic is in the game.
Right off the bat, the Killers you mentioned that need Ruin to "stand a chance" are all really bad killers. Clown? Legion? Those two Killers are already deemed the worst in the game, so mentioning them needing Ruin to stand a chance seems counter intuitive to the point that every killer main has to run Ruin or feels the need to.
Maybe instead of a perk boosting the chances for these poorly designed Killers, they can finally be touched and tweaked based on actual performance with no Ruin affecting the stats. Again, nerfing Ruin leads to more potential in balancing.
I even disagree with you, against good teams, you WILL NOT get value from Ruin. If you think 1 down early game because of Ruin still up is considered Value, then you might need to rethink your strategy when playing Killer. A good Killer knows Survivor spawn points, and can usually down before/when 1 generator pops without the use of Ruin.
"I do not want to play high tier killers, so I run Ruin on the bad ones" "Running Ruin gives me an easier chance"
- Is an indication the Killer you're playing is just bad and you lack knowledge of the Killer, therefore running a perk that is only good against bad survivors, therefore actually letting you do well with a bad Killer and not really work as much as you would as a bad killer versing good Survivors
- Now with this mindset, it disallows for potential in balancing those badly performing Killers.
You literally just answered your own question. You dislike getting ruin in 80% of your games yet you hit the nail on the head on why you are getting that result. Gens are getting finished too quickly, the maps are too big, the gens are too far apart. If you're not playing Billy, Nurse, Spirit, or Freddy you physically have no way of pressuring these gens in the early game. If you can't control the early game, then mid to late game hardly matter because as long as you don't have Peanut Brains on the survivor team that can't hold down M1, the gens will be finished.
If you know that Killers are running ruin in response to inherent problems with the mechanics of the game, why is this a question for you? Why do you think nerfing Ruin is a good idea when these problems STILL exist in the game?
Exactly, and IF all those things were to be balanced, how do you think Hex: Ruin would affect everything? How would it be fair to have Hex: Ruin in it's v1.02 state if all generators were further balanced? If toolboxes got gutted, if gen spawns were changed?
The devs are probably tackling Ruin first because that's what is skewing the Kill stats the most. Killers average 60% kills, all Killers... Now what perk is being used the most? 80% of the time in Red Ranks it's Ruin. Therefore, balance what's skewing the stats, let the stats settle and see the effects, continue further balance on generators after Ruin has been balanced into the picture. It's called the bigger picture, one, you, the playerbase, is not seeing.
It sucks that Ruin was hit first but it makes sense if it's the most used perk in the game for poorly designed generators?
Ask streamers like Otz, even Peanits himself, they'll often tell you to "not use Ruin and not to rely on it" because in High rank GOOD SURVIVOR TEAMS, it's useless and you're better off running something more synergizing for your Killer than relying on some crutch (that isn't even dependable)
You clearly never read the part where nerfing Ruin allows for potential and opportunity for further balancing. That's what is important. Also, Ruin was never good just accept it lol
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First thoughts, i like the new ruin. It is an interesting idea and maybe with surveillance would get a little bit of use. Not sure im on console so my opinion doesn't matter lol.
My problem with new ruin is the implementation. The only resemblance to the original is the fact that it is still a hex. A lit hex thats designed to be used late game. K. In reality it's like grabbing a Volkswagen bug and saying it's just like a tractor. Sure they both have wheels but....
I don't use ruin when i play killer but im only green rank. Yes ruin needed a rework. Both survivors and killers conplained about it for different reasons.
What they needed to do was make it an early game perk, like increase penalty for every survivor working on a gen at the same time or good skill checks not regressing, but missing a great check makes the entity block the generator for x seconds. With every 20 charges completed guranteeing a skill check. Or something that at least resembled the original in form or function.
What we got shouldnt be called ruin. I mean it should be what surge did.
Ive got 500 hours in the game. Maybe 250ish as survivor. I couldnt hit ruin checks at first. Now im better at hitting them. I didn't quit the game because i couldn't hit a skill check.
No one quits COD because they get destroyed furst thing. Or any other multiplayer game for that matter.
I don't understand why this game has to hold new players hands so much. Learning curve steep? Yes. Impossible? Not at all.
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We should welcome changes with open arms and let data settle after a while of the changes. After that, data will be more clearer to open way for more changes.
Imo, I think the new Ruin is already better. Hex's are still inconsistent but let's hope they tackle the issues of Hex's too.
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You have some bit of a point, but those two perks did not fundamentally change how a mechanic in the game worked.
Ruin v1 completely changed how you hit skillchecks, where as DS and Borrowed did not mechanically change anything for the game, just game strategy.
DS and Borrowed are separate perks with a separate discussion, but I will acknowledge your point of "They nerfed Ruin because it was frustrating, why won't they nerf frustrating Survivor perks?
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Here's hoping the game has a long term. If they keep balancing things from a singular point of view it won't
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No it doesn't fundametnally change how a survivor is unhooked, how a survivor is picked up, how you basic attack a survivor. Fundamentally mechanically changing something was like how Skillchecks no longer functioned as normal.
Also, you guys are forgetting the part where Ruin was already a bad perk to begin with
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Yes
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I love this, "ruin got nerfed so that the game could be rebalanced" perspective. Its ridiculous optimisism at best and delusion at worst. Maybe one day they'll buff the weaker killers to work better, but the fact of the matter is that they AREN'T. Every recent rework to killers has been to solve the frustration of playing survivor. That goes for Legion and Doctor and Freddy at this point. Healthy balancing is supposed to be a little give and take, but nothing in this patch leads me to believe that they have any plans or even thoughts about reworking frustratingly fast gen speeds or low tier killers.
Does it open up the option for more balance? Yes. That's not what people are upset about. They're upset about the fact that they're not going to balance regardless. Ruin was a nice bandaid for that.
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"Wish we could just gut DH, DS, Adrenaline, BT and Unbreakable, fix broken and rebalance 80% of the maps"
This is my biggest issue with your argument. You have no issue with listing a bunch of survivor perks that should be nerfed (Which have been before, and probably will be again), but when a killer perk is given the same treatment that's going too far. From what I've seen, each side gets it's share of buffs and nerfs every few patches. When survivors get nerfed they complain, when killers get nerfed they also complain, nobody sees the bigger picture.
The Ruin Nerf was necessary as it was a disproportionately unfair perk for newer players and Red ranks who don't care about new players are trash people who can't remember what it was like starting the game with all of it's frustrations. Now I will also admit that they needed to add more, such as not having Hex be a totem, or just generally increasing the time it takes to complete a gen. But that's what the PTB is for, they are testing these new changes and will adjust as they go along. The change was announced 2 DAYS ago, give it a bit of time before you overreact.
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Tryharding skill checks?
I'm sorry, but do you mean getting good at the ######### game?
Jesus christ, it would be like if I played madden and got mad for having to "tryhard my touchdown passes" because everyone else is already good at it.
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Again, it's been 2 days since the nerf, and we already presume that it is trash. Can we please just wait a little bit before we disregard it as useless. It will probably never amount to the same as old Ruin, but that does not mean it will never be viable. The truth is that old ruin was overused and now people have to adapt and they don't want to.
Also improving in any game is done gradually. New players haven't even gotten used to regular skill checks yet, and then you add Ruin on top of it and the game becomes a frustrating mess for them. I really don't understand how nobody has sympathy for them. I can play hours of this game and so I have been able to "git gud", but the fact that I had to slog through some of this bull is absurd. Now imagine someone who can't play as much as I can, and every game he gets in has Ruin, it makes the experience tedious and boring instead of enjoyable, which is the basic of any game.
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I think the slowdown perks are actually more consistent and better to use than Ruin. Actually, they have a consistent effect throughout the entire game.
Thanataphobia mixed with... Dying light? Pop Goes the Weasle? Items are essentially needed to combat these builds or perks like We'll Make it, Botany, Resilience and Prove Thyself.
Ruin though? Here lies a totem that may or may not get destroyed in 30 seconds, leaving the Killer frustrated. Survivors, having to hit tiny greats which can just be nothing more but irritating to an experienced Survivor. Unhealthy.
The changes to Hex: Ruin and it still being tied to a Hex makes essentially the risk same as old Ruin, but now it just punishes good Survivors who are being pressured.
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Let me open my case here. Imagine the following:
"You're a rank 17 killer, waited 2 hours to cue up into a game, and you choose your favorite killer, Pig. In you're lobby you see 3 neon neas, but in eager joy if seeing survivors you allow it.
-----------------------MATCH STARTING------------------------
You have been chasing this one Nea for around 2 minutes. You look to your right, and 2 gens just pop and you barely have started a chase against a fairly played survivor (compared to your skill level). Then, eventually find a opening to down the Nea. You hook her, then 2 gens more pop. Keep in mind you've chased this Nea for 2 1/2 minutes and took 40 seconds to find her from start of the game. With anger, you decide only reasonable way to win this terrible situation is to camp. You forgot that there were two other Neas. They all take hits, flashlight, last gen pops, adrenaline and then all the survivors are now 20+ meters away from you. You chase one Nea on meat tree which she led you to and you land one hit. Then you hear endgame start, and all of a sudden, the Neas got the bear trap off their head! You chase the injured nea till you see 2 neas and one claudette huddling around you blocking them from the third. You watch your only possible pip escape."
This was the tragedies I went through of January 2019. Ruin helped me deal with the gen rush by slowing down the game. Believe me. Getting one down before/during first gen pop changes the game. This allowed me to run over there, get a hit, then know someone would go for the save. I'd go find them and hit them on their way to the hook. Then, by nature the last healthy approaches to lure me away/is sneakly approaching. You find him, hit him, and all of a sudden the entire team is injured and their all in a 100 meter radius. Tell me this perk doesn't help? And no, this doesnt happen without ruin because they'd be saying, this last gen is about to pop so ill tunnel it or if its 2nd to last. Leave arguements all you like, but creator of this thread, you are ######### miles deep into the "wrong answer".
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Neither does ruin getting destroyed bother me either when i run perks such as haunted ground and thrill because I know they cant without me knowing or without them running the risk of insta down.
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Old Ruin slowed down gen repair time at the beginning of the match. No matter what survivors did--hit greats, hit goods and power through it, look for the totem--it slowed down gens. If it managed to last a couple minutes before being cleansed, that was still a couple minutes of slower gen times, which considering how fast matches can go was a positive thing for killers.
New Ruin does not slow down gen repair speed: it only regresses gens when survivors stop working on them. It actually keeps survivors working on gens to avoid the penalty and provides no way to slow them down unless they stop, and the problem many killers had was that survivors were not stopping, not even to heal or to make hook rescues. So, new Ruin can actually make the problem old Ruin was there to address worse.
And it's still a hex perk, meaning if it lasts until late game it's only because the survivors are so unthreatened by it that they don't care enough to cleanse it.
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