Freddy's rework idea

TheWhoosher

Why Freddy is a bad killer ?

Freddy is a bad designed killer from the core of his power, any values tweak can't resolve his problem, here are some reasons:

He has the worst map pressure, 90% of my games against or as him are done in ~8 min

Because of his invisibility and his 7 seconds, the survivor doesn't fear him at all, which result in a gen rush

He can't interact with a survivor before 7 seconds

This 7 seconds are added on the chase time and they can be used to finish a generator, or a totem in front of him

He is the most frustrating killer because of his aura reading ability

Now we need to talk why survivors call him an OP killer. His aura reading is a great tools for map pressure but the survivors are revealed at any time, this shouldn't be the case.

My rework idea

I will give you directly the power description as if it was in-game, but keep in mind this is a brand new power and it's just an idea, it's not complete at all.
The main idea is to give the choice to the survivor if they want to wake up or not by creating an "uncomfortability area" and to give a tool that Freddy can use, not something that he is lock with

Dream Demon - Power

Terror Radius : 16m, 24m, 32m ?
Visible by awake survivors: Yes

Death won't accept him and thus he remains, a calamity, indisputablr master of his victims' nightmares. Dream Demon allows The Nightmare to pull Survivors into the Dream World.
* Once targeted by The Nightmare's power, Survivors enter the Dream Transition for a very short time.
* During the Dream Transition they can only see glimpses of The Nightmare¹
* When the Dream Transition lapse, the Survivor is pulled into the Dream World
* Holding the Active Ability button will reveal asleep Survivors aura if they are further than [some distance here, maybe 24m?] (IMO Freddy should be slowed a lot [1 m/s?], his screen should be way darker, and have a cooldown of at least 20sec)

Once in the Dream World:
* The Nightmare's Red Stain become darker
* The Nightmare's Terror Radius is replaced by his lullaby (the lullaby's volume should be affected by the distance between the survivor and Freddy)
* When a Survivor fall asleep for the first time, he suffer an action speed penalty of 20%¹ (This is just a placeholder idea until I find something better)
* When a Survivor fall asleep for the third time, he suffer from the Exposed Status Effect
* To exit the Dream World, Survivors can find non-sleeping Survivors to perform a wake up action or fail a skill-check on a generator
* When a Survivor exit the Dream World, he will suffer from the Insomnia Status Effect (Hallucinations) until he is pulled into the Dream World again
¹ Not sure at all

Thanks you for reading, and sorry for my english, I took about 1 hour to make everything clear so I hope it's readable

Zarathos

I like the ideas. Thematically this a massive improvement on his kit the micro sleeps (hallucinations) are a welcome change. Self care has to be changed tho its too much of a meta perk for Freddy to overcome the ease at which survivors exit the dream world.

KiraElijah

I like current Freddy more

iceman2kx

Here's my ideas for Freddy:

*Survivors affected while transitioning to the dream world will have a chance to affect nearby survivors with Dream Demon within 5 meters.
*Activating Dream Demon on a awake survivor will disrupt any current action being performed and delay actions from being performed for 3 seconds (except running, vaulting, throwing pallets).
*Failing healing skill checks will not remove the survivor from the dream world.
*Chance for generator skill checks to occur while in dream world slightly decreased.
*"wake up" increased by 3 seconds.

Dabrownman1812

Being visible while awake breaks the mythology

Zarathos

Dabrownman1812 said:

Being visible while awake breaks the mythology

At the end of nearly every nightmare on elm street he is pulled into the real world. Nancy does it in the original and the remake hence why he loses access to his dream demon power. We can still maintain the tracking but pulling hin out of stealth and capable of hitting survivours at exits gates without dream transitioning is thematiclly accurate and a massive help to his late game. I would honestly settle for just stopping actions during dream transition it would make his power range add on ways more effective. The escape via heal check needs to go tho. 

TheWhoosher

@Zarathos said:
I like the ideas. Thematically this a massive improvement on his kit the micro sleeps (hallucinations) are a welcome change. Self care has to be changed tho its too much of a meta perk for Freddy to overcome the ease at which survivors exit the dream world.

Actually for this rework self-care can stay as is it, because the more quicker you wake up, the more quicker you will be exposed, and maybe even more

@KiraElijah said:
I like current Freddy more

Uhhh? Really?

@iceman2kx said:
Here's my ideas for Freddy:

*Survivors affected while transitioning to the dream world will have a chance to affect nearby survivors with Dream Demon within 5 meters.
*Activating Dream Demon on a awake survivor will disrupt any current action being performed and delay actions from being performed for 3 seconds (except running, vaulting, throwing pallets).
*Failing healing skill checks will not remove the survivor from the dream world.
*Chance for generator skill checks to occur while in dream world slightly decreased.
*"wake up" increased by 3 seconds.

Buffing him isn't the right decision IMO? he will still be frustrating

@Dabrownman1812 said:
Being visible while awake breaks the mythology

But being invisible breaks the game, at least the way he is right now

George_Soros

I very much like playing the Nightmare, despite (or because of) his weakness: twice the challenge, twice the satisfaction! And people out there who keep demanding a buff for him seem to forget one thing: although he's probably the one killer with the most 0K games, he also has great potential for turning a 2K into a 4K. Without Deerstalker or other perks, it's very hard for a killer to get the fourth survivor when the third one gets his/her final hook. But not Freddy. With him, it's a stroll on the beach. Aside for some minor changes (like making it harder to use SC to wake up), I don't think it's a good idea to do a complete rework on him.
If there's a real unanimous view that he needs some stronger buffs, I think some penalty for being repeatedly pulled into the Dream World may be ok, similar to what you suggested here; but I'd say Exposed is way too much. MAYBE with some pink addon, but not by default.
Some killers are just weaker than others. Instead of asking for buffs, enjoy the occasional success with those ones.
That's just my opinion though.

TheWhoosher

@George_Soros said:
I very much like playing the Nightmare, despite (or because of) his weakness: twice the challenge, twice the satisfaction! And people out there who keep demanding a buff for him seem to forget one thing: although he's probably the one killer with the most 0K games, he also has great potential for turning a 2K into a 4K. Without Deerstalker or other perks, it's very hard for a killer to get the fourth survivor when the third one gets his/her final hook. But not Freddy. With him, it's a stroll on the beach. Aside for some minor changes (like making it harder to use SC to wake up), I don't think it's a good idea to do a complete rework on him.
If there's a real unanimous view that he needs some stronger buffs, I think some penalty for being repeatedly pulled into the Dream World may be ok, similar to what you suggested here; but I'd say Exposed is way too much. MAYBE with some pink addon, but not by default.
Some killers are just weaker than others. Instead of asking for buffs, enjoy the occasional success with those ones.
That's just my opinion though.

I was a Freddy main, and I was thinking the same thing, but, how many time did you play against Freddy ? Tbh I'm pretty sure the devs have taken the worst ideas they had to make his power

Dabrownman1812

TheWhoosher said:

@George_Soros said:
I very much like playing the Nightmare, despite (or because of) his weakness: twice the challenge, twice the satisfaction! And people out there who keep demanding a buff for him seem to forget one thing: although he's probably the one killer with the most 0K games, he also has great potential for turning a 2K into a 4K. Without Deerstalker or other perks, it's very hard for a killer to get the fourth survivor when the third one gets his/her final hook. But not Freddy. With him, it's a stroll on the beach. Aside for some minor changes (like making it harder to use SC to wake up), I don't think it's a good idea to do a complete rework on him.
If there's a real unanimous view that he needs some stronger buffs, I think some penalty for being repeatedly pulled into the Dream World may be ok, similar to what you suggested here; but I'd say Exposed is way too much. MAYBE with some pink addon, but not by default.
Some killers are just weaker than others. Instead of asking for buffs, enjoy the occasional success with those ones.
That's just my opinion though.

I was a Freddy main, and I was thinking the same thing, but, how many time did you play against Freddy ? Tbh I'm pretty sure the devs have taken the worst ideas they had to make his power

His power isn't that bad prenerf, just needed certain things like no gen progress while asleep and can't interact during dream transition to do channeling actions besides hook save. Pre patch his slug game was strong, asleep survivors could not pick up downed survivors because you had to wake people up before healing them up, and sleep cant wake the sleep. Him being invisible does not break the game, you hear his footsteps, his blades, see grass moving, you have lullaby, within the lullaby you know or should know to get to a safe loop spot because he has to wait 7 seconds after finding you to strike. Fun fact, you can loop and vault when he finds you, since you aren't in a chase the vault counts for the entity block doesn't start until you're fully asleep. Most people I see, they lose to freddy because they hear him coming and either dont hide or hide where there are no pallets in the corner. Survivor mistakes. I main freddy, and most survivors aren't encouraged to think about timing because they have sprint burst to run last second. People get caught be freddy because of the reliance on sprint burst. With windows of opportunity out, you can know ahead of time if you're running into a dead zone. With lullaby and sleep time, you have at least 10 seconds to find a safe place, and with opening exit gates, if the 7 seconds doesnt sleep you by the time the door opens you leave.

TheWhoosher

@Dabrownman1812 said:
TheWhoosher said:

@George_Soros said:

I very much like playing the Nightmare, despite (or because of) his weakness: twice the challenge, twice the satisfaction! And people out there who keep demanding a buff for him seem to forget one thing: although he's probably the one killer with the most 0K games, he also has great potential for turning a 2K into a 4K. Without Deerstalker or other perks, it's very hard for a killer to get the fourth survivor when the third one gets his/her final hook. But not Freddy. With him, it's a stroll on the beach. Aside for some minor changes (like making it harder to use SC to wake up), I don't think it's a good idea to do a complete rework on him.

If there's a real unanimous view that he needs some stronger buffs, I think some penalty for being repeatedly pulled into the Dream World may be ok, similar to what you suggested here; but I'd say Exposed is way too much. MAYBE with some pink addon, but not by default.

Some killers are just weaker than others. Instead of asking for buffs, enjoy the occasional success with those ones.

That's just my opinion though.

I was a Freddy main, and I was thinking the same thing, but, how many time did you play against Freddy ? Tbh I'm pretty sure the devs have taken the worst ideas they had to make his power

His power isn't that bad prenerf, just needed certain things like no gen progress while asleep and can't interact during dream transition to do channeling actions besides hook save. Pre patch his slug game was strong, asleep survivors could not pick up downed survivors because you had to wake people up before healing them up, and sleep cant wake the sleep. Him being invisible does not break the game, you hear his footsteps, his blades, see grass moving, you have lullaby, within the lullaby you know or should know to get to a safe loop spot because he has to wait 7 seconds after finding you to strike. Fun fact, you can loop and vault when he finds you, since you aren't in a chase the vault counts for the entity block doesn't start until you're fully asleep. Most people I see, they lose to freddy because they hear him coming and either dont hide or hide where there are no pallets in the corner. Survivor mistakes. I main freddy, and most survivors aren't encouraged to think about timing because they have sprint burst to run last second. People get caught be freddy because of the reliance on sprint burst. With windows of opportunity out, you can know ahead of time if you're running into a dead zone. With lullaby and sleep time, you have at least 10 seconds to find a safe place, and with opening exit gates, if the 7 seconds doesnt sleep you by the time the door opens you leave.

His power was bad since release, yes he was a really good slugger, but you need to think about both side, and his power can't be tweak to be fun playing as and against him.
I'm not talking about "He is invisible, he is op!", but more because of his invisibility, he lack of pressure (no terror radius [Same goes for wraith and tinkerer if you're a little bit to far away] and his 7secs)

tbh I feel like you're thinking too much as a killer, you need to think about both side when balancing

Dabrownman1812

TheWhoosher said:

@Dabrownman1812 said:
TheWhoosher said:

@George_Soros said:

I very much like playing the Nightmare, despite (or because of) his weakness: twice the challenge, twice the satisfaction! And people out there who keep demanding a buff for him seem to forget one thing: although he's probably the one killer with the most 0K games, he also has great potential for turning a 2K into a 4K. Without Deerstalker or other perks, it's very hard for a killer to get the fourth survivor when the third one gets his/her final hook. But not Freddy. With him, it's a stroll on the beach. Aside for some minor changes (like making it harder to use SC to wake up), I don't think it's a good idea to do a complete rework on him.

If there's a real unanimous view that he needs some stronger buffs, I think some penalty for being repeatedly pulled into the Dream World may be ok, similar to what you suggested here; but I'd say Exposed is way too much. MAYBE with some pink addon, but not by default.

Some killers are just weaker than others. Instead of asking for buffs, enjoy the occasional success with those ones.

That's just my opinion though.

I was a Freddy main, and I was thinking the same thing, but, how many time did you play against Freddy ? Tbh I'm pretty sure the devs have taken the worst ideas they had to make his power

His power isn't that bad prenerf, just needed certain things like no gen progress while asleep and can't interact during dream transition to do channeling actions besides hook save. Pre patch his slug game was strong, asleep survivors could not pick up downed survivors because you had to wake people up before healing them up, and sleep cant wake the sleep. Him being invisible does not break the game, you hear his footsteps, his blades, see grass moving, you have lullaby, within the lullaby you know or should know to get to a safe loop spot because he has to wait 7 seconds after finding you to strike. Fun fact, you can loop and vault when he finds you, since you aren't in a chase the vault counts for the entity block doesn't start until you're fully asleep. Most people I see, they lose to freddy because they hear him coming and either dont hide or hide where there are no pallets in the corner. Survivor mistakes. I main freddy, and most survivors aren't encouraged to think about timing because they have sprint burst to run last second. People get caught be freddy because of the reliance on sprint burst. With windows of opportunity out, you can know ahead of time if you're running into a dead zone. With lullaby and sleep time, you have at least 10 seconds to find a safe place, and with opening exit gates, if the 7 seconds doesnt sleep you by the time the door opens you leave.

His power was bad since release, yes he was a really good slugger, but you need to think about both side, and his power can't be tweak to be fun playing as and against him.
I'm not talking about "He is invisible, he is op!", but more because of his invisibility, he lack of pressure (no terror radius [Same goes for wraith and tinkerer if you're a little bit to far away] and his 7secs)

tbh I feel like you're thinking too much as a killer, you need to think about both side when balancing

I am, I'm a survivor main, just play both high tier. And I make most freddy's cry, and most survivors mid to high tier do. The last escape rate they showed, freddy had a horribly low rate of kills. I forgot how low it was, but basically you had an extremely good chance to leave when the killer is freddy. I play freddy well because I know his counters, he isnt fair to noobs as they havent learned map scouting and juking and rely too heavily on stealth. Freddy's ecape rate is so unbalanced mpre so than other killers as he destroys noobs but experienced players crap on him unless he's running a particular couple sets. As I said his power was bad on release but just needed certain tweaks which I wrote already. He is an end game killer so killing quick without slugging shouldn't be viable with him, he plays differently than other killers and this should be kept in mind. He has bad map pressure but most killers have bad map pressure, that's something common and not a freddy exclusive weakness. The wraith actually has ok map pressure due to his speed boost, killers who travel faster has more map pressure. Wraith just doesnt have much else besides speed and invisibility. His aura reading isn't bad, he is a tracker, he tracks. It is only op for noob or unskilled players. Not being mean, but his rate of getting kills shows this. If he can see you, doesnt stop getting looped, he is actually a great killer to face when learning how to play because you have to juke him, and outrun him so it forces survivors to learn, which makes them fair better against other killers in a chase. Also, the exposed effect I love but is idk, a tracking killer that can expose is a lot. As killers stong in a chase don't tend to have tracking tools outside of perks. I like the idea and maybe q midway between your suggestion and what freddy already has.

TheWhoosher

Since english isn't my native language it's a bit hard for me to say what I think really, and to write in general. When I was playing him, I was almost 4k every game, event around r1, because of his size he can mindgame really well, but that doesn't mind he is balanced and fun (as/against).
IMO, he can't be simply tweaked, his power give him nothing except aura reading which is the main reason why survivors hate him. (or maybe I forgot something, I'm really tired so)
When I talk about map pressure it's more about "The ability to stop a gen effectivly" so that could have been misinterpreted. With every killers who have a terror radius, survivors will leave the generator quicker (yeah sprint burst), but nobody will do this against freddy, because of his 7sec delay, and yes that can lead to generator grab with some add-ons, but this isn't really part of the balance IMO, even if it should be, but, add-ons.
My rework idea got a lot of issues, and it was just an idea that came out of my head and took me about 10 min to write it

The main idea I want to share is, even if it's my opinion, He can 4k, he can be really good with some perk, he can be really bad, and he is frustrating. (and I'm not talking about 80% of the players are bad even at r1, this shouldn't really be take into account)

PigNRun

The one idea I dislike from this is how you are swapping his terror radius with his lullaby and vice versa, but only because it just doesnt fit. The lullaby is meant to be "Freddy is coming", not "Freddy is right next to you" (thats what the heartbeat is for). I havent watched the movies in ages, but that is how I remember it was set up.