Twins - What went wrong?
This got pretty long. TL;DR it's just my ramblings about the Twins. Probably nothing you haven't heard before.
The Twins - They... okay, no. I had some grand opening statement here, but let's be honest; we ALL have the same feelings towards them and know why. Great concept, terrible execution, and pretty much no one likes them.
The concept was ambitious, of course. The only killer that we've had until now that were multiple had been Legion, and that was only as backstory. This would have been the first time survivors would have to deal with multiple threats at once and the killer player would have to manage both of them to pressure the survivors.
Sounds awesome... in theory. What went wrong?
The first thing is something we all know. They are very adept at Camping. One of the reasons killers are advised not to camp in most scenarios is that doing so forfeits map pressure. If the survivor team is smart, they will leave their teammate to die while the rest do gens with 0 resistance.
But that's not a problem when there are two killers. Logically, it makes sense. One pressures the survivors while the other secures the kill. It's extremely unfun, but it makes sense. The devs seemed to have realized this, putting in an anti-camp system to prevent the Twins from just camping a hook... which turns out to have been pointless.
How so? Victor moves at 150% speed. Even at 16m away, he'll still get to that hook fast enough to use his built-in Bloodhound to tunnel the unhooked survivor out of existence. Of course, that's if the system works. We're all aware of the loophole: release Victor and leave him idle by the hook before hooking the survivor with Charlotte. Everything the anti-camp system was meant to prevent is now doable thanks to this oversight.
But that's just a minor oversight. I mean, Leatherface is also an insanely good camper thanks to being a multi-hit killer who can insta-down. There's something more, right?
Of course. It's important to understand just how necessary a killer's power is. It can serve many functions: Blight's power allows him to have the best mobility in the game. Legion's gives a 1st hit and great info with Killer Instinct. Ghost Face's allows him to catch survivors by surprise and even insta-down them. Billy's is a mix between Blight's mobility and Bubba's ability to insta-down at any point and time.
Powers can do a lot of things to provide the killer an edge other than being slightly faster than survivors. Without them, killers are at the survivors' mercy as they can be looped indefinitely until every pallet is gone.
Because of this, simply being in two places at once wasn't enough. Who cares if there are two killers if both are inoffensive? So what was done was that rather than do something like give both Twins their own power, they instead made 1 a powerless M1 killer and the other the real killer who can't hook survivors properly.
This kinda defeats the point of their own concept. It's no longer dealing with two major threats at once. It's that one is a joke and the other is a threat.
But fine, they went that route. What does Victor have?
Killer Instinct on him is basically a motion sensor able to detect any survivors moving within his shrieking radius... when he's idle... which is only good for camping. Yeah, I'm a little lost here. I dunno what they thought was gonna happen.
Victor is one of the stealthiest killers in the game. He has no TR and thanks to his high-speed, by the time the survivor hears his shrieks, it's already too late. Unlike every other stealth killer, Victor is completely immune to perks like Spine Chill a.k.a the perk that hard counters every stealth killer in the game because balanced. Actually, Victor is just immune to every perk on both sides. This means he has no perk synergy but also that several survivor perks like BT are useless against him, and Freddy has shown us what BT Immunity can be like.
All that is fine and dandy, but what really makes Victor a threat? Once again, thanks to his insane speed and built-in Bloodhound, if you are injured, you're basically dead. It's scaringly similar to Old Legion in that even though scratch marks aren't an option, a killer that can bypass pallets and is a lot faster than you can hunt you down and leave you on the ground faster than a Trapper's traps get disarmed against an Object.
Sounds absolutely powerful, yeah? But why do killers hate the Twins then too? I mean, Oni is a mass slugger and he's a liked killer. This is when the concept works against the killer. Oni can down a survivor or two, see no one is around, hook a survivor and go back to patrolling.
Twins? No. Victor gets a down then the killer goes to Charlotte. Then, she has to potentially go across the entire map to get to the survivor (praying there is no Unbreakable, Tenacity, WGLF, etc) and get a single hook.
Obviously, this makes the down-and-hook strategy infeasible, even if you're using perks that would help you do so such as Pop. 3 gens are going to be done by the time you get a single hook because even if Victor is powerful, he needs a survivor injured, which means chasing a Charlotte first, then downing with Victor, and then going whenever they were as the Big Sister, and then you get the hook.
The solution people have found? Pretty simple. Look at Nurse: her mobility is bad, but you know the common strategy Nurse mains have? The one that makes her mobility a non-issue especially when combined with her oppressive 1v1? As I said before, they slug.... a lot. It's the only way to obtain map pressure without actually hooking anyone, DW everyone like Legion, or inflict Madness like Doc.
What's left is some of the most unfun "gameplay" since Old Legion.
Killer? You have to injure them first, which is time-consuming no matter how you do it (pouncing with Vic or chase with Charlotte). Even if you slug them, the meta is filled with anti-slug perks to counter slug heavy killers such as Unbreakable, Soul Guard, the new WGLF—all being powerful and very common perks.
Survivor? Being slugged on the ground most of the game is not fun. Whereas Oni needs to at least have his power first (and needs to constantly manage it) and the Nurse you're too busy respecting to even be angry, the Twins can always down you... if you're injured. Even if you're a great player, the Twins can always just use Victor for the initial hit/pounce which is not time efficient, but will down you eventually, essentially making your skill as a survivor pointless.
Could the Twins have worked? Maybe. I'm sure someone can think of some way that might've worked, or maybe there's no way the killer like this could be both effective and fun to verse. Currently, the killer is extremely unfun and ineffective in the current meta.
Rather disappointing, honestly. Especially since Twins were preceded by Blight, a widely liked killer thanks to being, once again, effective and fun to verse (all 2 of them, anyhow). What can be done to help the Twins in these regards? I'm not sure. It's far too late for any ideas I can think of. They might just continue to exist as a killer that sounded great in theory but are widely abhorred in practice. Hopefully, though, lessons are learned from this experience.
Comments
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The thing I hate most is how insanely easy it is for experienced survivors to dodge Victors pounce. Being crushed over and over again from a single miss is the most frustrating and demoralising thing I’ve experienced in this game to date.
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Really? whenever I play against the twins victor seems to get really annoying hits in. Also it seems dependent on victor missing in order to get away. And when he miss he too far away to be able to crush him.
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Another problem with the Twins is that running from Victor or dodging his attacks awards NO chase points at all. I guess chasing with Victor doesn't give points to killer either? Unfun time and less points from it.
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This is why i don't play them and it's not a matter of "get good and don't miss" good survivors are nearly impossible to hit unless your right on top of them and if they see you start doing that then they go and circle a decently sized object. Even if you are right on top of them they still have a chance of dodging due to how fast you can spin as a survivor.
Getting hits with his pounce is also inconsistent at vaults, there are so many times where i go through a survivor instead of hitting them and vaults are one of the best counters to him mainly shack window. Maybe im doing something wrong there but I feel like there is a moment in the vaulting animation where you just can't hit them.
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I assume they started with the original idea - a killer where survivors could fight back. They came up with the idea of a little killer that could be kicked and disabled. Then they worked from there.
Its what happens when your game is designed around making killers fun for the survivors.
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This is why I haven't bought them and likely never will. I didn't try them but it looks frustrating just watching people play Victor as survivors wiggle about and it gives me flashback of Demogorgan, when you dive right at a survivor and even though it looks like you should hit you just slide past them causing no damage chase after chase after chase. The twins looks like a very frustrating experience.
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Unpopular opinion: I really like the twins and am happy they went with a different approach with a killer. That does not mean there are glaring issues. One of my biggest issues is that a mistake with them feels like it could lose you the game. Miss one pounce? Get kicked and lose all your pressure. They have too many counters imo.
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Played only against 2 twins. One was pretty bad, the other one missed nearly no pounce, still lost in the end, because he slugged too long, instead of going there and hooking.
I played her / him once, but the controlls with her are so slow and with him too fast.
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The horrid buggy launch played a big part of it too. Kills all hype for the Killer or the desire to continue playing them when they are released in such a state.
Then we finally do get to play her and she is just....meh. I loved the concept and art, but the execution is just lacking.
I pictured Victor being an extension of Charlotte, not some gimmicky Pounce mechanic that is very frustrating to use.
Another Killer once again disproportionately affected by poor map design.
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If I were to change the Twins to fix both problems I would make it so
-If Victor is 8 meters within a hooked survivor he dies instantly while idle
-While playing as Victor pressing the action button while standing still will teleport Charlotte to his exact location
-If Victor is destroyed Charlotte gets the enraged mode for the next 30 seconds she moves at 230% speed until Victor comes back
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you want a killer to move as fast as billy saw sprint with full control? lol.
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It’s only if Victor gets destroyed. If to strong they can nerf the speed down to 196% speed I did this cause Charlotte has no map pressure this would solve it
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Even without knowing the numbers of his pouncing speed, its pretty safe to say that you can not dodge victor as survivor regardless of how good you are as survivor. The human reaction time plus the delay and latency simply prevent reacting to his attack.
What you probably mean is that it is hard to hit a survivor, but if you are spot on, you hit every time unless its a very long range attack.
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Good idea, but i guess you mean 130% MMS instead of 230%.
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It's a great idea but I don't think I ever seen a new killer being used this little. Last 20 games of survivor no Twins in sight, thats bad.
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I agree that’s to strong to have blight speed I wanted it to be that when Victor dies Charlotte gets so angry she moves incredibly fast to kill them
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It's a shame that the Twins are only viable via camping/slugging. I think they're high B/low A tier.
The biggest issue with the Twins is how difficult it is for 4 solos to counter a good Twins player. A good Twins can be dealt with and mostly neutralized, but it takes a hell of a lot of coordination on comms.
Yes, the playstyle has counters, but it doesn't mean that it's fun in any way, shape, or form. They're boring. Being camped/slugged is boring. Downing a survivor with Victor, switching to Charlotte, and waddling across the map just to hook is boring.
It's actually kind of unreal how little action or engagement there is in a match where two killers are present. To counter Victor, you either circle a small to medium filler object or W away from Charlotte and hop in a locker. Thrilling gameplay. To counter the camping, you crouch up and kick Victor. Riveting. Nobody wants to play a slow-paced game.
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you don't even need to be experienced, just run around a tree or rock and victor literally can't do anything until he decides to go away or you spontaneously die of boredom
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Run ahead of the survivor, or quickly double back, and the survivor either runs into you or stops because they can't react to that, unless you're very predictable. You move at 150% speed and his pounce charges in a second (and moves at over 700% speed so there's not a chance in hell a survivor can react to and dodge it), you don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out how to hit someone around a tree
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I think the main problem with The Twins is that the gameplay revolves around slugging and camping without the need for perks to help, this is not fun for both sides IMO, I think slugging only is pretty boring and strong. You can camp a hook while pressuring the map which is insane pressure. Another factor is that the killer came into the game unfinished wich is not the best way to sell a killer.
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Tbh I just don't play them because I hate the camera lock and slow when going out of power; and her visual design.
I think her power looks fun but I that camera lock it does infuriates me for some reason so I don't play her. It could be balanced or whatever but still I feel like I could go make a sandwich it lasts so long.
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