DS should be disabled the MOMENT all 5 gens are done, period
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It does not work without some degree of incompetency on the Survivor side. If it did, then DS would not be a meta perk by any stretch of the imagination.
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lmao ok then.
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Am I wrong? DS wouldn't have the reputation that it does if was ineffective at buying the Survivor side time.
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I don't think it should be disabled after 5 gens but rather when endgame collapse starts.
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I mean, I've said like, several times now that I just tunnel through it. I don't know how else to reword it.
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The fact that you intentionally punish yourself for tunneling does not mean that it's suddenly not a punishment.
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Lemme tell you all about the consistent 3/4k's and how I'm punishing myself, and how I don't have DS in EGC.
Lemme get a book, hol'up.
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Anecdotal evidence don't mean squat.
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...I literally opened this conversation with anecdotal evidence. I was offering a suggestion to the OP about what I do about DS, and now we're here.
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7 secs is a little too long.
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I can’t believe people are still complaining about DS...
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You told me that not proc'ing DS intentionally is not playing around the perk. That's not anecdotal at all.
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It's not playing around the perk though.
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DS is fine.
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Killers are expected to simultaneously force DS to avoid having to deal with it in the end game and avoid triggering it to avoid having to deal with it during the rest of the game. "Playing around the perk" means killing Survivors fast enough but not too fast. At that point, it's pretty much just "the counterplay is to beat the Survivor who may or may not have it."
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I disagree with too fast. Just burn through it like a Chad.
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Then I fundamentally disagree with the entire premise of your argument.
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I summed that up like 12 posts ago. ;)
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it’s a 5 second stun.. once you take it then the perk is gone. It’s not that bad.
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DS is training wheels.
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I don't think the five second stun is overkill or anything. But a five second stun is pretty significant. But that's not where my problem lies with DS. My problem lies with the fact that you can get punished both for playing around it and for playing into it.
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May I offer a suggestion and just force disable it?
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No. It’s an anti tunnel perk and tunneling after the gens are done is still possible.
Period.
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Because what's the point in the killer continuing to play when he knows the survivors can just hook bomb and body block everyone out?
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It's still lacking deactivation conditions. I'm not tunneling you if you got to full health again, or if I just hooked someone else.
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Omfg, so ds has been nerfed into the ground and balanced beyond belief yet you STILL want another change because you can't secure a kill earlier in the game?
Honestly, that's just ######### dumb.
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You're asking all these questions but they all have answers you might not expect. You can't go for the unhooker because the others will body block them. The person gets unhooked because you can't force a grab as it will roll it back, and they can body block the unhooker as they're doing it. You're asking someone to run a specific perk that may not even help. You could hook someone on the other side of the map, and through sprint bursts and body blocking you still won't get them in time. Moris are pretty animations and not worth bringing. Forcing DS usually puts you on the backfoot for the rest of the match, which ironically leads to this very situation. Pyramid Head is one of many killers, and not everybody wants to play him. So none of your points do anything to his argument.
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That makes zero sense. Tunneling should be "disabled" in the first part of the game because DS can't be used in the last part of the game? And btw, if someone gets tunneled out at 4-5 gens still up, the survivor team is throwing. You should be doing way more gens than that if the killer's really tunneling like you say.
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Some of these killers will never be happy until a perk is introduced that basically spawns all 4 survivors on a hook.
I really wish I was exaggerating but some of the comments on these forums against survivors is just as you said plain dumb.
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I agree. It's still way too abusable and lose-lose for the killer. Stupidly designed perk that people keep claiming isn't good enough anti-tunnel.
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Honestly, thank you for saying it! I swear to god lately all I've seen is killers wanting every little thing nerfed for survivor and it's so beyond dumb.
When either side wants the other nerfed into the ground it actually makes no sense to me because they clearly take the game way too serious and like there wouldn't be a game without the other side.
Although survivors have been the notorious complainers, killers these days are completely worse for it.
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Yeah I mean if there are hard restrictions on survivor perks why not on killer tactics?
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Because perks and tactics are entirely different. Hooking someone one after the other is not even the same as someone getting unhooked, running to a gate, and then stunning the killer guaranteed because you had 45 seconds left on your perk. There is absolutely nothing the killer can do to stop that person from getting out if they get unhooked and have DS, but survivors can do so much to make sure that tunneling 1 survivor costs the killer 5 gens and the other 3 survivors. And even then that tunneled survivor can still get out.
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You said it yourself perks and tactics are different. So why do you have a problem with a situational (at best) perk? A perk is suppose to be a power-up/bonus provided the right situation presents itself?
As I explained earlier, if the person is far from the gates. There is no chance they get out. Unless the killer makes a mistake. Because in the realm of “tactics” you can also Slug them to give YOU the upper hand and prevent their stun.
Its just very comical when you think about the fact that the person had to bring a perk that has been nerfed to death, to counter a built in tactic.
Post edited by Johnny_XMan on1 -
DS can be used in the early game as well. Just because it would be disabled late game changes nothing about it early game, so why would tunneling need to be disabled?
DS is not situational. It's doing something every game. It has changed the way most killers play. If the killer wants to tunnel because he feels like it, he gets DS'd, fair. But most of the time killers are forced to tunnel to play catch-up, because the gens go too fast. So they either tunnel and have a chance at winning, or they lose. So they take that chance and they get stunned, after chasing that person again and picking them up, and get nothing for it except that stun meanwhile everyone else is pushing gens. But if you don't take the DS early, they have it late game and it makes them have a guaranteed escape once they get unhooked.
So it's anti-tunnel and then some, because if it's endgame and you have to camp the person, you're not really tunneling them because they're the only person you can get, but you still get stunned by it anyway.
The killer has to respect it too, even if they don't have it. The stun punishment is too much. That's what makes it OP, because you have to assume everyone has it, and chance it thinking they don't have it when you're forced to tunnel. So no, it works in every situation.
There is absolutely a chance to escape when the survivor is hooked far from the gate. They just use their sprint burst and DS to guaranteed get out. If they can't even do that, that's their fault. Once that person's off hook, then maybe if their unhooker didn't give BT and nobody body blocks, that person can't get over to the gate before DS runs out. But survivors will do those things to save that person, so that's not a possibility. And if you go for the unhooker, they sprint burst away and everyone blocks for them instead, even the hooked guy because he has the crutch BT/DS combo so he's invulnerable in taking the hit for that guy.
And this argument about slugging to avoid DS has been done to death, and it never works. If you slug to avoid DS early in the game, they still have it the next time they get unhooked, so you have to wait 60 seconds twice while standing over their body in order for it to work. Yeah, that's not happening. The team will rush gens and/or pick that person up and body block them. It's just as detrimental as taking the DS because it wastes too much time that you don't have. Slugging to play around DS doesn't give much advantage at all, because the others will either rush gens because you're hanging around their body, or you didn't hang around and they instantly get picked up and run away to hide, killing your tunneling strategy right then and there.
You should probably find the comment where the guy's telling the OP to bring Rancor to counter late game DS. That's needing a perk just to counter something, not DS which counters tunneling but is also a guaranteed escape card in endgame.
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DS shouldn't fire after the fifth gen.
But -ONLY- if it becomes baseline, as innate anti-tunnel. Both killer and survivor could use some of the meta perks being baselined to make both sides stronger, and slow games down a bit.
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It doesn’t change early game but you are restricting an already heavily restricted perk.
One that half way gives you 5 seconds should a killer choose to tunnel at any given time during the trial. So my philosophy is that if one perk can have that many restrictions to the point of making it a pointless perk, then so should the very mechanic it intends on countering.
You are only presenting one outcome of where DS shines during endgame. Because in reality if (as I pointed out before) the gates are far, you can chase that same survivor down them again and slug them. But if you wanna get technical about it, and you are concerned about 1 kill you can always trade off.
There are plenty of perks that allow you to secure the kill (STBL, NoEd, NWO, BW etc) not to mention killer powers (99% Michael, Bubba, Plague, Trickster etc)
Again, I feel like you are only focusing on one scenario where The hook was close to the gates. Though I think the point you are missing is how much this perk doesn’t need any more restrictions, when that one scenario isn’t guaranteed. Sometimes people have been left on hook too because there was no way in hell they would get to a gate in time.
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Well, this is DBD... naturally you're the Big Bad Killer who's totally helpless to hold back someone literally bleeding to death from inching their way to victory right in front of your face. In fact, your best option is to actually HELP THEM ESCAPE by picking them up and eating the strike to let them so they can run out the gates teabagging if it gets the game over that much quicker
Yeah, that's the definition of a no-win rather than outplaying the killer if the killer can know exactly what you're doing, yet left with no counter to make because they can't jam their foot into your back to hold you in place for 60 seconds...
It's just one of those DBD things warping the game premise until playing killer feels more you're the joke in a bullying simulator.
People defending it already know it's totally BS game design. They just don't care. They want their free escape button because that's the whole point. It's not about reasonable counters & prospects for good plays on both sides, They prefer it as this godly tool--especially for groups already coordinating together over voice-coms for that steroids boost advantage--to feel even bigger by guarantying every endgame hook is an escape as long there's at least one person with DS left for a hook trade.
Ironically, all it does is make tunneling all the more attractive when that's just yet another reason why its in the killer's best interest to tunnel from the very start if they can burn through DS while there are still counter-plays to be made at all.
This is my own rough recommendation for DS from a thread about the skill check being irrelevant:
Absolutely 100% agree that the skill check is unnecessary now... actually given the game's increasingly ridiculous performance & frame drops it's outright cruel. They could at least make it take up 3/4 of the bar so if it were about keeping some way to preserve the DS check. Ideally I'd prefer a few more changes too: *Buffed DS up to having 2 uses per match now too (1 per hook) *Removed unhooking others / self-heals from deactivating it (just prohibitive) *But INCLUDE blessing totems to deactivating it... like seriously #########.. how did they.... ugh *Most importantly DEACTIVATING the perk if gates are open because that no-wins situation was still the most BS thing even before the nerf
Or I'm just some dirty killer main out for easy 4ks or something.
Maybe its that much better & healthier having the epic "4-man escape guaranteeeeed!" button than something feeling way less bullshit for killers and doing way more to combat tunneling for survivors... even if that means you can't deny killers from some end-game pyric victory of a measly 1 kill... provided your team couldn't just bodyblock, flashlight save, or BT that person to safety anyhow.....
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To disable a perk at endgame just so you can squeeze in a kill is dumb and irrational. This just sounds whiny to me.
Every single perk has a use, and a perk to prevent tunneling etc. is extremely useful especially at end game.
No to all of it.
This is coming from someone who doesn't use DS because I haven't unlocked it and get constantly tunneled for no reason ALL the time... i'm usually the first to die. So for me, this perk when I get it would make it a lot less frustrating to get tunneled.
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Ah, damn that frustrating END GAME tunneling...!
waitaminute....
The whole rationale for tunneling ever constituting "a bad thing" in the first place roots from the inherent "well that sucks" factor of being removed from the game without having had much chance to even play it.
It's just like people who ######### about being "camped" at the end game. That's a total misapplication of a concept intended to convey a relatable frustration, instead being twisted into this totally arbitrary standard of "bad" as long as people keep shouting "THING BAD" long enough and loud enough to divorce it from all context.
It's entirely irrational... as in zero rationale backing up the stance at all. Getting frustrated over those things is just petty.
People might say "tunneling" casually in reference to going after the same player repeatedly, same as how people might describe an end-game "face camp", but there's a major difference between the capital T & C applications of Tunneling and Camping as experiences that are at least understandably "not so great" rather than full-on survivor rulebook like this.
That's not to say even capital-t Tunneling is some "you cannot do this killer" matter either, though it is something with which a lot of killers still empathize and try to respect. Because there's some reason. End-game Tunneling, on the other hand, totally contradicts any value the term holds. It literally does not exist.
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Not really lol
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The perk doesn't have enough restrictions, because it's supposed to be anti-tunnel but hooking someone else doesn't deactivate and opening an exit gate doesn't deactivate it. If those things are happening, then how is that person being tunneled? It's just abusing a defensive perk to use it offensively against the killer.
I am saying that even if the gate is on the other side of the map from the hook, once that person is unhooked and has DS, they get out. They'll get hit through BT and get a sprint burst, or you wait out their BT but also give them more distance in doing so, so they're guaranteed to get close to the exit even from full map away, and that's without teammates body blocking. They can also be recovering on the ground and get picked up by teammates and be body blocked when you try to slug. That, or they could have Unbreakable and/or Soul Guard.
We want to be able to pick up the survivor and hook them a last time instead of having to use moris, Rancor, or Tombstone just to get them out. Unless you're hard tunneling one person, which will cause you to lose everyone else, you're not even gonna have anyone on third hook most of the time, so you usually have to respect DS twice even in late game.
And no, most of the time the team isn't gonna leave the easily saveable survivor. We've seen a rise in people straight up leaving because they didn't even want to try, but that's the exception and not the rule. Unless survivors throw the match or are facing a Leatherface, they can guaranteed get someone off hook and out the exit. "But what if they don't have BT or DS?" Then that's the silver lining. But a majority of the time they'll have both BT and DS, because we're talking about high level here, and they get out for free because they equipped perks.
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I feel like letting it be used twice and not deactivating it on self-heal and unhooks defeats the purpose of nerfing it. It at least should be deactivated when you get to full health again, someone else gets hooked, or you work on an exit gate. I even suggested it deactivating on body blocks, but I don't know how the game could recognize that they were taking a hit for their teammate. It's supposed to be anti-tunnel, not used offensively.
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See now you’ve added even more “variables” without considering there is also variables against survivors.
Also ask yourself why the majority of survivors have BT and DS. Many people would like to play other builds but the moment they start to get tunneled they go back to DS. That has been my experience anyway.
So forgive me if I lack sympathy for what you think is abusive about DS still. When nothing was changed mechanically about a play style that in 2021 is still considered a “strat”.
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So because the survivors are experienced enough to know how to handle a situation you've created, their perks are supposed to be disabled...?
How is that fair?
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