here's what gameplay of dead man's switch on the artist will look like
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yes. this is literally why i went out of my way to buy the artist, deathslinger, and ghostface to get all these perks on her, and see for myself if it were as strong as i thought it would be. my previous discussion was pure speculation as to what you could do with this build.
there's no more wondering (from me) if this would be too strong.
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The counterplay to this is to let go of gens at the start of the hooking animation, wait out the crows, then go back on the gens. Artist will take 12 seconds to recharge her crows. You tank the second set of crows, giving you another 12 seconds to keep working. Then you are finally forced to let go by the third set of crows, but at this point 30+ seconds will have already passed between the recharge time and the time taken to set up and fire crows, only leaving at most 15 seconds left on DMS.
That said, most people will not know about or employ this counterplay, and therefore camping DMS Artist might still be enough of a problem to warrant adjustments. Artist can also employ counter-counterplay by delaying her initial crow launch or firing singular crows (although that obviously comes at the risk of survivors simply sticking to gens rather than waiting out crows).
I would find it unfortunate to see this perk lose its chance to have a meta impact merely due to an interaction with one killer. I hope that if there will be adjustments due to this, they will strictly affect this interaction.
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Lucky Break was pretty funny. BHVR listened to the majority and nerfed it, but quickly realized it wasn't actually going to summon the apocalypse and reverted the nerf.
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I think they only reverted part of the nerf, I think? It was originally proposed as 90 seconds and then was severely nerfed by like half and then later quietly buffed up to 60. It would probably be fine at the old 90, too.
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Damn, now the 3 people who play artist will be marginally more annoying to play against
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killer mains be like
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I think it's better to nerf the perk instead of the killer. This perk is obviously busted on Artist and needs a nerf.
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imagine thinking wiggle buffs are as strong as this unused perk buff lul. its only one second and its very situational considering the fact that hooks will always be right beside you when you pick up someone. the survivor goes to the corner of the map? yeah theres a hook near there too.
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perk is broken on doc and freddy too. they should never have touched dms and let it be dependent on obsession switching perks. here's hoping it never comes out the way it is into live.
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Well wiggle buff will be used by every single survivor since it is a base mechanic, so it's a buff to all survivors, where as this is apparently solely a problem on one killer barely anyone plays.
"It's only 1 second"
Then you have no issue removing the undeserved buff.
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He's right. It's not going to be game breaking. I don't care if it stays, or it's removed. It's not going to do much, and people are just overreacting as usual. Nothing new.
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It is a buff and needs to go. Period. The DMS buff will barely exist because it's over blown by people who hate having to adapt. Hopefully it stays and the wiggle buff is removed.
And no matter how you build it the perk is still no where near as strong as survivor perks not nerfed in this update like DH and COH. Which is used by everyone and broken on all survivors. Stop nerfing killers. Learn to adapt. Maybe the queues will improve then.
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lol. The perk is busted on Artist (maybe Freddy), but it needs to stay, and the wiggle buff (1 second) is too strong? Uh, okay.
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The problem is that if you do a 1 for 1 trade, you refresh DMS, meaning that for another 45 seconds, no one can work on gens.
I don't think an Artist with DMS can lose using this tactic, unless they get looped for five gens straight.
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I think it's possible to deal with it as SWF, either having multiple survivors on 1 gen and just don't let DMS to activate, or have 2 survivors going to unhook -> so it's not 1 for 1 and 1 survivor will always work on gens.
But I think it's impossible for soloQ, there just needs to be quite high coordination for this to happen, but as I said, that is same for Bubba / Trickster imo. I think those are harder to deal with in theory, but well I will test it when it gets live.
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Bubba and Trickster can camp harder, but they don't remove gen progression for 45 seconds, so I think Artist is going to be the bigger problem here.
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There are perks that slow the game without you doing anything, so that helps with it.
And main difference is that Bubba / Trickster are going to most likely kill that first survivor faster, then deal only with 3 survivors left. Well, we will see when it goes live. Let's say it's close enough for now...
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Ideally, we'd get to see it on PTB, before it goes live!
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Having multiple Survivors on 1 gen while someone gets facecamped equals doom because the Survivors cant finish all of them before the hooked person dies and once you are 3vs1 with 3-4 gens left it usually ends in a 4K or 3K+hatch and this is not even taking the remove crows action rotation which takes 1 person out of the gen making it even slower.
And like Firellius says, Leatherface and Trickster can facecamp better but they cant stop gen progression, facecamping gets countered by genrushing, everyone who defends facecamping parrots "just rush gens" but Artist+DMS+Pain Resonance facecamps AND blocks the gens at the same time.
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Well, those games are super random there. Even more now than usual, when there is so little to test -> less players. Also they might nerf the hell out of it, so it won't matter.
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You can use Corrupt + Deadlock to slow them without doing anything.
Multiple survivors on gens just prevent to block it, if you have each survivor on different gen, she can easily block all those gens, so that tactic just doesn't work against her.
Best tactic I can think off is try finish as many gens early, then work on them as group 1 by 1 while trying to get unhooks on last second with two players so it's not just 1 for 1 trades. Unhooks will be easy against her, she is just m1 killer without power there, but you will need a lot of coordination to deal with it, which you will never get from soloQ.
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I think you are quit right. The issue is face-camping and not the Artist or this perk. Instead of nerfing a perk that is not even off the PTB now it would be better to just wait for a solution to face-camping which is much more needed.
The only time I saw Pentimento receive good value was when I played with a teammate who had the "Cleanse Totems" quest. That Yui broke 4 totems and the adept Artist was having a field day with us after that because once the Yui was on hook nobody knew where those totems where anymore...
The only time I got some Pentimento value was with Hex: Plaything. However the problem was that survivors would just remember where their plaything totem was and just cleanse it again.
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They said on last Q&A they are working on a way to fix face-camping, but in a way that is not going to destroy proxycamping, which I have no idea how they want to do it.
I wonder if they will buff something else for killers in return, or just nerf them and see what's going to happen (more likely to happen).
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It probably takes some time to come up with something like this. I can see that proxy camping should not be nerfed too hard because there are situations where you can not avoid it: Say a survivors loops around his teammate or you hang a survivor next to the exit gate that is open or in the middle of your 3gen.
I think they will drop this mechanic as a surprise just like the new wiggle mechanic.
And I agree again: If they nerf face-camping they should buff the rewards for hunting and harassing multiple survivors.
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I always thought that basekit small pop (like 5%) would help a lot. Killers would be more likely to leave hooked survivor.
Pop would be nerfed to 20%, to make it same.
Killers would leave hooked survivors more and they wouldn't have to stack slowdown perks so much and I don't think it would buff slowdown stacking anyway. You can't use it with ruin active, Pop would stay same. So Oppression and Eruption would get better, which I don't think is bad thing...
Kicking gen without a perk for it is just waste of time atm, because passive regression is so slow and can be stopped in 0,1 sec by survivors.
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Corrupt+Dead Lock dont block gens in the same way Artist+new DMS+Pain Resonance.
Corrupt lasts 120 seconds, Dead Lock blocks the most progressed gen for 30 seconds after finishing one, fixing a gen takes 80 seconds, if the Survivors are split you will finish 1 gen at ~90 second mark blocking one with Dead Lock and having only 30 seconds left on Corrupt, so you get 30 second stall on 4 gens tops (one of those about to get finished), if 2 people work on 1 you finish at ~55 mark and block the gen of the other guy which will be at 55% or so, you get 60 seconds of stalling on 3 gens and 30 on 1 (worst case scenario) 3 people work on the same gen Dead Lock barely does anything because it will block a barely progressed gen (or maybe no gen at all if there isnt a higher progressed gen), they can go fix one of the other 2 or 3. And thats it, no more stalling from that combo now if you want to facecamp you risk getting rushed, you got around 30 seconds of stalling.
Now the problem at hand blocks gens for 45 seconds while facecamping and every time you hook someone, you trade hooks? DMS gets renewed and gens get blocked 45 seconds again, the facecamped dies? 3vs1. There is no winning situation, either you trade hooks and reactivate DMS or you dont and face a 3vs1 after a whooping 45 second stall on every gen you touched. Even the whole "taking turns cleansing birds" thing is pointless, you need 2 people to fix a generator while taking it almost as much as only 1, effectively getting rid of 1 Survivor worth of work.
Also we are not even taking on account Pain Resonance instablocking a gen with its explosion even if 2 people are working on it.
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You don't really need to trade hooks against Artist, she is just m1. You will need two survivors for it tho...but yeah, you really don't want to trade against DMS with Pain resonance.
I am not saying it's easy to win against that, but I don't think it's impossible.
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I agree, kicking a generator is hardly a good idea unless you want to farm some points. 100 BP for a small kick is an investment after all. However gameplaywise this has almost no effect, it takes the Killer 2 seconds of time to kick it while offering no reward unless you run Pop, Oppression, Eruption or something like that.
Honestly, I could live with a small "pop" effect, even if it would be only 3% or something like that. I would even be satisfied if it was just 2 seconds worth or survivor time I could get out of this.
Regression stacking is a whole problem on its own. The need for more times and the efficiency of getting more time made Pop/Ruin/Undying so good that Killers have little incentive to take anything else. This also hinders build diversity and the solution is not to nerf regression (aside maybe from Hex: Ruin), which is just a band-aid, but to fix the timeframe that exists for hunting.
So...face-camping is the issue, right?
Because this whole scenario is based on face-camping. If face-camping, a thing we all hate, disappears this is fixed.
Also when I read your last line...Erruption + Deadman must be fun as hell to play...
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Problem is that regression stacking is kinda best way to play with most killers. If you nerf that, you will see even more tunneling / camping, because that would be only thing left.
Hit&run is useless because of CoH now, so there is not much you can do unless you are ready to lose most of your games.
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Its easy to trade hooks while facecamping if you dont panic, just attack whoever tries to unhook, stay very close and when someone tries to unhook hit em and just chase em, once you down them hook and DMS gets refreshed giving another 45 seconds, you actually want to trade hooks with this build. Worst part of this whole ordeal is both actions lead to ruin, you trade you get blocked, you dont you get 3vs1 against a Killer who got 45 seconds of free stalling, there isnt anything reasonable you can do to counter this and on top of that, its not even hard to do, just stay on the hook and spam a crow to gens you know there is someone because BBQ gave away the auras.
The issue is facecamping+free gen stalling while doing it, in any case I can guarantee facecamping will never go away on itself, the thing they said is "we find facecamping too hard to punish by Solos and way too rewarding for Killers, we dont want it to be that rewarding so we want to give Solos tools to punish it effectively" this build does exactly what they said they dont want, facecamping situations that are very hard to punish, actually this build even if the 3 Survivors were to genrush the Killer they wouldnt be able to because she would be blocking the gens with 0 effort.
That being said, if they were to implement a system like the cages with regular hooks I wouldnt be as concerned for new DMS as I am now, I doubt they will so its either PTB DMS nerf or Artist+Freddy nerfs (easier to change the perk so my money is on DMS being changed before release).
Eruption+new DMS could be an interesting synergy because you need to kick gens to pull it off, making it time consuming, you take your time kicking a decent amount of gens and get rewarded with gens being worked blocked 45 seconds, take on account DMS only blocks the gen if they are working on it, lets say you kick all 7 gens and hook 1 Survivor only 3 people can be working on gens tops, you may find yourself hooking someone, all 7 gens exploding and not a single one getting blocked or all 7 exploding and 3 getting blocked, its an interesting synegy but not really broken, you have to work for it, you block 3 gens maximum, Survivors have means to fight this back and nobody gets facecamped, I wouldnt mind using this on certain builds or having to play against this (at least on paper sounds interesting, maybe its not that strong or way too strong, has to be tested first).
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I would opt more for a mechanic that allows the survivors to fight facecamping actively while at the same time rewarding a hunting Killer. I saw many suggestions that said "increase the time on the hook" and I must say they got it wrong: This would not solve the problem for the people on the hook. We need a solution that will put people off the hook and able to play again.
The interesting thing is that the cages show that a system to teleport survivors across the map is in the game. Using this could maybe lead to a solution to camping Killers.
I think we agree on the fact that DMS is not itself the problem but the time they implement it is very sub-optimal without taking care of the camping issue first. I still have a grain of salt in which I would like to wait for the live server.
We had quit some instances where people called something OP and then it was fine or they only face it a few times: Think about Cenobite with Hoarder, Hex: Ruin, Franklin's Demise. This combo is pretty much cancer yet we rarely see it because few play Cenobite and even fewer go for this combo (most take Ruin/Undying/Pop anyway.). As such Hoarder and Cenobite never became that problematic or nerf-worthy.
Eruption + DMS was not supposed to be OP but more like a fun way to play this. I like perks where you have to work for them or that lay a trap. This is why I like Dragon's Grip even if it is weak, I like the "Trap" aspect. Eruption + DMS could be very interesting on Trapper and plays into his fantasy which is very important to me.
Yes, which is sad.
I want to nerf regression stacking because it is boring to face the same perks over and over again. I would also buff some perks to up their level a bit and make them better but no matter what happens, regress-stacking will always be king on the hill.
Hit and Run was fun on Wraith before CoH or on Ghostface. Won me quit some games when people stayed injured or hat to wast time to heal through Sloppy Butcher with Thana. Miss that combo. Now Wraith and Ghostface became even more lackluster because of CoH with Ghosty getting the shorter end as Wraith still has his mobility...
I wonder if they will address the speed issue at the same time as the camping issue...
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They should 100% do things like that at the same time. I am not sure they are able to do it tho. It will be like Mori / Key changes....
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This game must be a balancing nightmare, change 1 perk and 1 killer can completely break one side
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It's obvious that Leatherface needs a camping nerf and the best was to nerf his camping it to make another Killer just as bad!
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Isn't this just like deadhard? You basically progress the game as a survivor and killer punishes you for it without any drawbacks or skill. Well at least you gotta get a down.
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I guess this thread has taught me why people hate bbq so much. The counter for that and this is the same.
See your teammate picked up, hop in a locker. Wait for the hook, and the crows to fly, then come out of the locker and go back to your gen.
Voila. No blocked gen, no crows showing your position, and if she is camping the hook (as in the videos) then she's just handed you the win.
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What's to stop her from just shooting another crow 6 seconds later?
Also doesn't killer instinct still trigger inside lockers? It does for Legion atleast. If it does she knows your there
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The 12 second cooldown.
Sure, if she gets it close enough to a locker, she'll know you're there. You won't be harried, so it will still take 2 crow shots to injure you, and DMS still wouldn't take effect, so I don't see how that's relevant. She'll have to come to the locker to do anything about that knowledge, which means she isn't camping (as was shown in the videos from the OP)
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This makes Artist even less interesting to play against somehow lol
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5 seconds if she's smart and fires one crow at a time.
If she fires 3 then you don't even need to bother and continue to work without risk for 12 seconds on the gen. By the time you have to let go for the second volley almost half of dms times is going to be gone.
Also you assume your gen is always the first one that's going to be hit. How long will you sit in a locker if she starts checking other gens first. You're still giving vallue to dms that way.
Honestly i think the best way to counter this is just to have the nearest survivor hookrush her when she is setting up her crows.
She still needs to be 10 meters away from the hook to use her crows and most of the time she has to look away.
I don't think a resque is going to be very hard. Especially is she just placed a crow and has to start chasing you with her crows on cooldown
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I'd do it this way.
Teammate gets picked up, you hop in the locker, wait out bbq, if it's artist, give an extra second or so to hear the crows fly, then go back to the gen. If she comes after you, handle from there.
The reason I was framing it the way I was, was to give the killer every advantage to show that even then, the perk isn't that big a threat.
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Yeah i do agree that it will probably not be as busted in practise as in theory.
She'll be on of the best users of the new dms but i don't think you'll be able to mindlessly camp with it and win without effort.
Between her having to be atleast 10m away from the hook and swarming alone not being enough to kick you off the gen it will be strong but managable
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While the perk is powerful I believe that it is fine as is and should come to live so that finally something can break the slate meta that we are in and maybe things going forward will be more interesting. DMS was complete garbage that wasn't run due to its activation condition. I would rather see a powerful perk be brought up than adding it back of other useless perks. We already have enough of those on both sides already.
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