http://dbd.game/killswitch
The Botany Knowledge Buff Really Isn't A Big Deal (Bear With Me)
Seriously, hear me out.
I see this buff talked about in passing a lot since it happened, usually in the context of talking about how healing is busted right now or some such. Now, trust me, I get it- I was also nervous about them buffing Botany and even had misgivings about this specific buff when it was announced, so I get how you'd come to this conclusion. However, I do truly think the buff kinda didn't change much at all.
A big chunk of the reason why is that the penalty they removed… kinda didn't matter already. It was already trivially easy to overcome for a single heal - just bring one charge addon - and not all that difficult to get two heals out of either by bringing a syringe.
So, with that in mind, what new options are actually available/improved noticeably because of the penalty not existing? To my eyes, there's three, and none are all that frightening. Those are:
- Survivors with Botany can now use medkits they find in chests. This is… something, but they still have the time investment of the chest itself, so not a particularly huge bonus.
- Getting two heals via charge addons and the healing action is doable without Streetwise now. This is, again, something, but the healing action is practically just weaker than the syringe— the only benefit I can see is that the syringe eats your medkit, but that's pretty minor with how accessible medkits are.
- Altruistic healing builds are now better with Botany and a medkit. This is arguably the biggest boost the perk got, but nobody actually does this and it wouldn't be too problematic if they did.
There's really nothing else that Botany is capable of doing now that it couldn't completely do before the buff, that I can see. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think this buff actually mattered overall.
If you're noticing super fast heals now and they definitely weren't happening before Botany got buffed, it's still not Botany doing it, in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, Botany's top tier, but it was top tier before this buff too.
Comments
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I haven't seen a single person running BK. People are mostly running we'll make it
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Botany Knowledge needed some utility or else it was outclassed by Empathic Connection or that new Orela Perk. But now that Sable Perk is outclassed.
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A little aside the point, but honestly I disagree with that quite a bit too.
Empathetic Connection is the one outclassed by Botany, really heavily at that. Duty of Care(? you know which one I mean) is about on par with Botany, and Strength in Shadows isn't really the same kind of perk + is extremely good as well.
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I'm a Botany main since the game came out, always used Claudettes perks to help and heal others, nothings changed other than I can use my medkit more to heal others, I did this anyways (Always bring bandage + butterfly tape which guarantees me 1 self heal if I need it BEFORE THE BUFF), but often I'd use it for healing others.
All they did is make the perk have more synergy/quality of life, you know.. as a healing perk should have. Healing speeds havn't changed, if you want to blame anything, blame the other healing perks lol
even if you nerfed Botany Knowledge with the downside, healing speeds would be the same. It's people who don't play survivor with this opinion I feel13 -
If you mean Strength in Shadows, this is already outclassed by Self Care. I dont think that Self Care is that good, but the time you need to run to the Basement and back to wherever you should be is not really worth the speed of Strength in Shadows. Let alone that it is more risky.
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The only thing it did is make self healing with medkits faster (and of course you don't get screwed by botany if you use a medkit).
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It didn't even do that, Botany was already doing that prior to the buff.
It only ensures you can use medkits out of a chest, and that you can get two healing actions from a medkit w/ Botany instead of one healing action and one syringe.
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So just a minor buff. I was using we'll make it before patch but switched to botany with a no addons medkit
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I wouldn't go calling botany top tier but players calling current healing super fast must not been playing for very long.
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It's a lot less about botany and more so people starting to realize how busted resurgence is. I just see multiple of them now practically every game. It makes healing off the hook basically inconsequential. There's basically no time wasted doing it.
-1 -
then people need to get off poor botany's case and complain about resurgence.
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It's not just botany, it's also desperate measures. It's healing buffs in general. Though I do think y'all downplay the botany buff to an egregious degree.
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Botany functionally hasn't changed, though. Genuinely- am I missing something about Botany that changed with the latest buff here? What makes this downplaying and not just accurate?
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The point is the base free 50% increased healing was already strong, it dissuaded people from using it due to the negative medkit affect. With that gone, more people will use it.
I mean seriously, it's free 50% increase healing. No specific scenarios required, no tokens, nothing. It's just free.
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Right, but now it just sounds like you're agreeing with me. The buff wasn't a big deal and had practically no impact because the perk was already really good.
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It just makes it better, because there's no negative affect to worry about. Which means it will be more common.
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But you already didn't have to worry about the negative effect, it was trivial to circumvent.
I can respect that seeing it more might be annoying, but the buff is only incidentally relevant to that. If people had just decided to run it more prior to the buff it'd be functionally identical here.
Botany is very strong but it's also not that fast, it's worth pointing out. Resurgence is a far faster heal, and much more deserving of talking about as a problem than a consistent, lower grade increase.
Maybe I'm splitting hairs here, but this isn't Botany's buff being downplayed, it's just correctly understanding the buff didn't make a functional difference in the grand scheme of things. Botany is slightly more convenient to use in niche scenarios but otherwise didn't change. The only impact it possibly could have is reminding people Botany exists so they try it more.
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And I guess you only calculate Desperate Measures at max value to prove your point?
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IMO Botany Knowledge is solid, but I think We Will Make It is better for altruistic Healing, because most of the time you heal after Unhooks anyway.
But yeah, even if we ignore the complete nonsense in 2016 DBD where you were able to heal with Self Care during the Weapon Cooldown of the Killer, not so long ago self-heals with Green Medkits were possible in like 6 seconds or so.
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The same way you'll probably tell me to bring niche killer perk #142 to barely counter a strong perk survivors have. Don't try to be condescending with me.
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No, because I dont think that Desperate Measures is a strong Perk. And since I have never seen it since its buff, I think I am not the only one who does not really see the strength of this Perk.
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Botany is just okay. Desperate Measures isn't good unless you're in a losing position.
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A free 50% healing increase with zero requirements / specific attachments necessary, is a bit more than just "okay".
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We'll Make It does double it with a extremely basic requirement AND it lasts for two minutes.
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Yea also a strong perk… and?
-3 -
I'd run Self-Care if the priority stack didn't get in the way of chases (same reason I don't run Sabo). I like that it shows the Killer's aura at the end of the heal too. Not exactly the strongest though.
Desperate Measures is a staple in my kit primarily because it's stronger the more that Killer injures Survivors and hovers around hook. I don't see what the problem is.
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Yet I don't see you complaining about it, despite it doing the same thing.
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Self-heals with botany got buffed but I don't think to a crazy degree. I think desperate measures and resurgence are much more dangerous. Like it's insanely easy to reach the 200% healing cap on altruistic heals now and on self-heals you can get to close to 100% with just botany, Desperate Measures and some medkit speed add-ons.
On top of that resurgence basically gives every person unhooking you 200% healing speed.
But it's not any one thing it's everything together is making healing the strongest it's been in a very long time.
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Well, that's my point though, I don't think self heals with Botany really did get buffed. Like I said in the post, the only two real outcomes of this change is being able to heal with a medkit from a chest, and getting two heals without needing a syringe for one of them. The former doesn't really matter and the latter is, unless I'm missing something niche, just a flat downgrade anyway.
I would agree that healing is very strong right now, but Botany's buff has no bearing on that— at least, not this one. The buff it got years ago in 6.1 has a lot more bearing on it, lol
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We'll make it isn't the one that just got buffed…
-5 -
Botany is the king of self heal builds now. Numerous amazingly good combos. My best thus far is: -
- Botany
- Resurgence
- Medkit with the 2 8 charge add ons.
Gives you 1 complete full heal in about 15.4s, and 2 heals off hook within 4.62s all for just common and uncommon add-ons. In some ways this better than the old syringe and 8 charge add-on bulld with BK and Resurgence, because you can heal yourself to full any one time you get injured, rather than having to burn the syringe and lose later heals.
I still maintain this is now the king of healing perks, and that is fundamentally flawed design, since Botany gives you access to great self healing and pretty much as good altruistic healing as any other perk all on 1 perk slot.
It makes so many other altrusitic helaing perks redundant, and also any self healing perks like Self Care, Strength in Shadows and Plot Twist basically meme perks, because they all pale in comparison for value.
Though I will admit I still have fun building around it, cause I can just not take a medkit if I don't want to play meta cheese.
-3 -
I wouldn't go quite that far, I think Botany basically preserves its status as the all-rounder but I don't think it hardcore trumps all the other tools. Hell, everything you can do with Botany now you could also do before, you'd just maybe have to use slightly more expensive addons.
I also disagree that other healing perks are that bad in comparison. Simply not using your item slot is already genuinely a bonus, freeing up space for either the strongest item in toolboxes or more fun items like flashlights. It also must be said that Self Care and Strength in Shadows aren't outclassed by Botany because they are also improved by Botany- that perk is required for Self Care not to be throwing, and it makes SiS a top tier perk as opposed to just a quite good one.
I believe we've discussed this before but I think it's important to remember a lot of other altruistic healing perks do other things. We'll Make It is the closest comparison and all it really boasts is shaving a few extra seconds off post-unhook heals, but something like Circle Of Healing both has a higher speed and allows everyone on the team to sue it, and Desperate Measures has a potentially higher speed and unhook speed, which really isn't nothing. Empathetic Connection shows your aura so people go to you for heals, and Orela's perk I forget the name of scales to a higher number and has the skillcheck bonus, so on and so forth.
What I'd argue Botany Knowledge actually is would be the benchmark. It's a good high-ish number with no restrictions, and every other perk will have restrictions but provide better rewards in some way- higher number, extra effects, or both. That's not to say every comparison works out well there, but it's a reasonable position for a perk to be in.
That said, BK has been very powerful for a long time. It's not absurd to think its percentage might be lowered a little. I'd hope not, I love Botany, but it is plausible— and it won't have anything to do with this latest buff, it would've been justified for a long time.
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In all fairness Gift of Pain (what's its new name, Weeping Wounds?) is one of the best anti-heal perks in the game, and that and/or Leverage is actually very useful at dealing with healing. Especially if you're on a killer that can interrupt survivors often or make them think they'll be interrupted so they go somewhere safer first - so obviously your high mobility ones, but also some stealth killers + Doctor - they're shockingly effective at slowing down healing, which in turn slows down gens because a) they spend more time healing and b) if they die faster they're not on gens as much. I'd hesitate to call either of those perks "niche", especially if we see the healing prevalence continue, because they can do some serious damage particularly to Resurgence.
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And? If it's a problem, it's a problem.
Botany isn't an issue and most people who say it is aren't seeing the big picture.
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The best thing to do is just tunnel the first guy out as long as they're not a juicer so you can ignore this crap. Hit and run hasn't been this weak since peak CoH. Splitting pressure is pointless in this meta
-6 -
…What does that have to do with anything here? I'm a little lost.
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Just giving my opinion on the best way to deal with these perks to casual readers as an average killer player. You can argue about each one individually being more or less responsible all you want
-6 -
This thread is only about one perk, though?
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Yeah I understand your point, but I just can't resolve that the extra speed argument on any perk is always moot point, because the difference is only 2.667s additional over BK, compared to the 5.333s value that BK already gives... and BK works in every scenario.
So then you have to go to secondary effects... and every effect falls short compared to the fact that BK also saves a whopping 8 seconds on medkit self healing, and frees up a whole extra players hands for the 16s duration... thats 16s of value from a medkit+ BK. This effect is good enough to be a perk on its own, and yet BK gives a significant portion of other perks value with no set-up, cooldowns of conditions whatsoever. Remember no self healing exists for all these other perks... so I'm just gonna say NoSH as a reminder.
We'll Make It is the big loser, cause it only grants an additional ⅓ of the value of BK, despite being conditional and having a time limit. Totally shut down by slugging or SoloQ hooking too fast... and NoSH.
We're Gonna Live Forever is a contender, because the endurance effect is a valuable effect that Botany cannot compete with... but is reliant on the killer to slug for value, whereas Botany's value is almost always gonna be there getting value no matter what strategy the killer employs short of tunneling the BK player (and even the a syringe can do huge work).NoSH.
Circle of Healing is far to restrictive, take 14s to set up, however much time to run to the boon, then again, only saving 2.667s over BK and can be snuffed. Totally pointless to run this perk, especially since COH is a NoSH perk.
Do No Harm is no value on no hook stage, equal value on first hook stage, and again only the same 2.667s value on the second hook stage. The net overall healing time over the game is still longer than Botany in practically all scenarios.... and once again, NoSH.
Desperate Measures, requires multiple injures teammates 3/4 of them to see the same value. Unhook speed is nice but really other than making a trade easier when injured, it's just not got an effect that rivals the consistency of Botany. Though this one does have self healing though; DoSH.
Empathic Connection has a decent percentage of the value of Botany at 11.85s compared to BKs 10.667s, and is similarly unconditional. The aura effect is actually decent here to create and good value trade off... though NoSH strike again. The self heal speed is a major head and shoulders value advantage.
This is why I can't take the argument that other perks have their own value particularly seriously... the value of Botany is so consistent and universally applicable, that the value of it trumps everything.
Post edited by UndeddJester on0 -
but a nerf to botany back to the way it was would again not change speeds, all you have to do to get a full self heal is add a bandage on (brown add on btw).
putting the efficiency back on literally changes nothing, people can heal fast with do no harm and we'll make it, both useful throughout the match with not much of a condition needed.
honestly I'd personally prefer old Self care and botany back from before 6.1.0, with how different the game is I don't see an issue with it. Med kits are weaker now, and recent killers are stronger than ever.
I still to this day hate 6.1.0 (still awaiting calm spirit to be fixed)3 -
I'd be inclined to agree overall, I personally value Botany very highly, but I do feel the need to point two things out.
First, and less importantly, there is room for personal taste in here. Some may find the way other perks work just far more smooth for their preferred gameplay, and that should count for something in these conversations.
Second, and more importantly, that was all true before the buff as well, which is my overall point. If Botany right now trumps all other healing tools, then Botany prior to the buff also did, because the few areas that the buff actually affects are pretty small and niche.
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Self heal + syringe builds got a new tool in the FNAF update as well.
Trevor's perk exhultation got a massive buff; being able to upgrade your medkit and get 75% of its charges back after a stun is crazy good since the addons stay the same. Pallet stuns can be RNG at times though but I quite like it on medkit oriented builds
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I have to disagree that it's the king of healing perks. At least not the undisputed king. It's the best all around healing perk imo. However there are others that are better for different situations.
@topic I do believe the "new healing meta" is being overblown. Desperate Measures went from okay to a little more okay. As Jesterkind pointed out Botany Knowledge got a buff that didn't really change much from a practical standpoint. I'll allow for the possibility it could become problematic (it's too early to say though). Resurgence while strong isn't really problematic imo. It can only happen at most twice per match per survivor. Honestly I consider it more an anti tunneling perk than a healing perk.
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The requirement is the perk slot. Survivors get four perks and that is their primary source of strength and customization. Most perks either provide a moderate, constant buff (botany) or a significant, but conditional based buff (we'll make it). Some perks are situational and require certain circumstances to get value but its an extreme amount of value (unbreakable).
Botany is a solid, general perk, but if you're getting tunneled, or you're against a plague or instadown killer, its not very valuable. But if you bring heal perks and hit a killer spreading pressure, you'll have an advantage, sure, but that's broadly true for how everything works in the game.
I think this is all accurate. Medkit + addons + syringe + botany was and is still extremely strong and the change to botany knowledge really didn't impact much except make other medkit options more viable though still not as strong.
A big chunk of the reason why is that the penalty they removed… kinda didn't matter already. It was already trivially easy to overcome for a single heal - just bring one charge addon - and not all that difficult to get two heals out of either by bringing a syringe.I think this is broadly the reason they removed it. It didn't do much, but it required explaining the math to new players (and added unnecessary coding as well).
We'll Make It is the big loser, cause it only grants an additional ⅓ of the value of BK, despite being conditional and having a time limit.I generally prefer BK over We'll Make It, but, when I run We'll Make It, I feel so much more comfortable getting that heal in right away. If there is a potential that the killer can return to the hook, those 4 seconds can make a massive difference.
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I don't mind healing perks being good.
But please, BHVR, buff anti-heal a bit as well!
Mainly Mangled and Hemorrhage need some help.
-2 -
This is fair enough, and yes Botany did always have this strength before, however, my point has always been that the -20% medkit efficiency gave the perk a tangible downside.
That downside gave scenarios where Botany wasn't a preferable perk. Those scenarios didn't come up too often, Botany was a very consistent and strong perk, but they DID exist. The most prominent one being, if I'm injured at end game, need to heal solo and running Botany, I can't search chests for a medkit. That's a pretty niche weakness, but it's a real scenario that does come up every now and again.
I'm an off meta player, I like theory crafting and trying to create builds with a particular idea in mind, looking for combinations of perks that work well, that others may overlook... it's probably my favourite part of the game... and in all theory crafting, Botany is a strong choice every time, however this weakness above is also a factor to consider each time, and is a weakness that meant I might choose something like the less consistent perks like Desperate Measures, We'll Make It or Do No Harm in its place... and by doing so, using these perks inspires me to perhaps consider other alternatives that might uniquely synergise better with them.
Now whenever I'm creating builds, if I'm thinking of a healing speed perk for a build, Botany is the best choice every time because I can always ensure I have it for any scenario, including healing myself. It's why I hate the change so much, because whenever I'm theory crafting a healing build, the answer is always Botany... and that is so boring to me.
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I generally prefer BK over We'll Make It, but, when I run We'll Make It, I feel so much more comfortable getting that heal in right away.
Is a fair point, though just to clarify, it's only 2.667s seconds not 4s, which translates to difference of ~12.25m of killer distance in the trial.
I accept the point that even with that number, it can of course make the difference of getting a heal off before the tunnel, but a killer really trying to tunnel will often interrupt before We'll Make It can finish as well... so I don't particularly see the additional value that comes from We'll Make It vs. Botany.
Especially when in SoloQ you have this constant problem of teammates being too keen to unhook, so if you have good unhook discipline, you often don't even get to trigger We'll Make It anyway, whereas Botany is always up no matter what happens.
And in regards to Botany having the same strength as before, please refer to my post above this one.
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Resurgence has been a staple in my build since its buff, but the beauty of that perk (imo) is that i don't need anything else to compliment it. I literally get healed under the hook all the time and rarely have to heal myself.
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Hemorrhage is already pretty brutal. I'm not sure what more you could want from it. I suppose Mangled could use a buff to the percentage though.
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Agreed, though that's the amazing thing I've found with this build snd why I get frustrated with Botany... its not just a great self heal perk, its also the best altruistic perk as well.
You're not just taking Botany for the self heal (If you get interrupted, your self heal times with Resurgence are ridiculous, there are times you can even get the heal off in chase), you take it for the self heal AND it's universal altruistic benefits as well.
Basically all questions around Botany and other perks are, should we focus on Self Healing or Altruistic Healing?
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