Looking at the "proof that devs aren't survivor sided" arguments
So the main argument is that a lot of survivor favouring things used to be in the games and the devs patched them out, which is a fair argument to make but that's ignoring the huge part of "killer changes" for the benefit of survivors. Like the fiasco of the nightmare on steam Street when old Freddy was aparantly deemed OP and things like that. When a post is claiming xyz is killer or survivor sided to me that means xyz makes changes that only benefit the side being argued
So let's just jump into it fellow players
Hatch couldn't be closed - this is a good point to make against the developers being surivor sided as closing the hatch allows the killer to more easily secure a 4th kill. However. The hatch is now in a weird spot of being BS for both killers and survivors, on the one hand upon it being closes the last survivor can be screwed over from even having a chance of escaping. But on the other hand the hatch can spawn right in the survivors running line as they're in a chase and there's nothing a killer can do about it because they removed the ability to grab them to prevent hatch standoffs (to be honest if there's more than 1 generator left a killer who really wants that 4k will probably just stand on the hatch and wait until they learn where the survivor is. Kinda like old times) additionally it was buffed to be able to spawn regardless of generators complete..... But closing the hatch means absolutely nothing if a purple key is even brought into the match.
EGC didn't exist - it's a 3 minute timer for the survivors to leave the game once exit gates have been opened/when the hatch is shut. Unless the killer has noed and a blood warden combo it isn't much of a blow to survivors. If it gets started via an exit gate that's plenty of time to get out. If it's hatch activated.... Its the standard rng of spawns that this game is known for. So I would call it a change to the game rather than a nerd to survivors
DS worked on first down - it did. But you could avoid this ds through dribbling if a hook was close enough, and it was also affected by enduring to my knowledge. And in its current state its stun duration is the highest its ever been at 5 seconds unable to be endured through without the ability for a killer to viably play around it. Sometimes it isn't a viable thing to slug when you need to apply pressure via hooks in the early game
There were More safe pallets - true, but structures like the coal tower haven't been effected in a way that'll severally lessen the loops value or the God window in rancid abattoir that depends on a coin flip. Furthermore their may be less safe pallets but the proximity of strong loops close to each other enables for a survivor to chain on one loop for much longer than they should in theory be able to due to the proximity of other safe pallets
BL infinites - infinites were never intentional. Just like how the developers said oni flick wasn't intentional. But yes balanced landing was nerfed. Well. It got another bonus to compensate making it great for stealth players... Unlike ruin which didn't get any compensation but a decent perk synergy
instant heals allowed for crazy long chases - they did, but this was in tandem with perks like dead hard, your other exhaustion perks, desicive strike. Without these perks I honestly think the community wouldn't have had as bad a view on them. this is a killer sided change however you'll have your content creators like monto who actually claim that the purple styptic change was actually a buff seeing as it can ignore insta downs. Additionally a survivor that's injured can benefit from the perk resilience which in combo with the spine chill perk is slowly coming into a survivor favoring meta (as long as they aren't down they're still able to loop like an uninjured surivor would)
Compare all of these changes to the CONCECUTIVE tweaks to nurse (the rework), oni (the flick. But aparantly it's coming back but in this context it still applies) , spirit (removal of collision plus prayer beads and a viable vault animation) and now doctor with his rework all to make playing against them easier (just look at the 3.5.0 patchnotes for more proof of the focus being on making them easier to play against rather than play as). What compensation did nurse get for having a cooldown forced on her? What did oni get when his flick was removed? (he's got it back aparantly but remember. This is talking about the changes at the time). Spirit got.... No collision? No wait she had most of her purple add ons nerfed. And now doctor. His minute long cooldown for notification bubble is still countered by going into lockers, the cooldown between static shocking and attacking matches that of when he still had to swap stances. His reverse skill checks are a very rare add on that can be countered by just paying attention. What did he get in compensation? The awnser is a sweet makeover to lerrys... But that's not gonna help the doc specifically.
Comments
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Survivor players: "4 man swf has under 50% escape rate, game is not survivor favored."
Killer players: "solo survivor has over 25% escape rate? SURVIVORS OP PLS NERF."
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Whats the point of this ######### wall of text. Please enlighten me.
Devs removed ruin so that they can have a look at the gens and see if its really true that they are going too fast.
Nurse is still the 2nd strongest killer, Spirit is still the strongest killer. Oni flick is getting fixed to be 90° instead of 360° or 0°. Doctor rework is actually a buff, despite the bullshit in the patchnotes, you can't counter him by going to lockers, because you don't know when he will use the ability (this is not BBQ). All delays and cooldowns are getting fixed too.
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People want to use the overblown stats that even the devs discredited like sheep but those that play both ends on the ground know better..hell even the survivor mains at the top of the community echo this sentiment..its just sad so many people still dont get it or are somehow incapable of it
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If that was true, they could just disable ruin temporarily. Completely changing it says they're changing it.
If it turns out gens ARE the culprit, you think they're going to revert the ruin changes? LOL.
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Yes, they are completly changing it. Then they will look at the state of the game and decide how much do they have to nerf toolboxes and gen speeds.
Thats what they said.
They are not going to revert ruin changes. Gens are the culprit, so they will change gens, not ruin.
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That's my point. If the gens are the problem, why say "we need to change ruin yo see that". If they know, or believe, just disable the perk and prove it.
I literally said they can prove its gens, and not that ruin was a problem, and they wont change it back.
Because they INTENDED TO CHANGE RUIN BEFORE CONSIDERING GEN TIMES REGARDLESS OF THE ISSUE.
Your quote "gens are the culprit, so they will change gens, not ruin" is 100% false. Theyve already changed ruin.
Also, wheres the quote on them saying that they're looking at gen speeds after the change? Someone else claimed it in another thread and theres still no link.
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"Would you rather nerf toolboxes or decrease gen speeds" I think that was the name of the thread.
They had to change ruin because it was used in like 80% of the matches and you couldnt even see how gens work without ruin. And reduced gen times WITH old ruin would be op, so they have to do one at a time.
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The problem here is that people have different perceptions of a win...
Take me for example, red ranks both killer and surv, xbox.
For me, if 2 got killed on both sides it's a tie, but, as survivor, a win is when 3 or more escaped, not if I escaped, not if 2 escaped and I was one of them, and as killer, a 3k+ is a win, but not if I didn't get at least a black pip so....
It's more complex than a 50/50 survival/kill rate.
Killers feel survivors are OP cause they can't 3k+ in 50% on the games (which would mean they "win" 50% of the time), whyle on the other hand, survivors have different understanding of a win, weather if it's based on if you pipped, survived, how many survived, etc.
In my OPINION, as a red rank in both roles, survivor is WAY easier than killer, don't get me wrong, I still pip and 3k+ almost every game as killer, but it takes more of an effort than when I'm survivor
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After you killers posted Tru3 videos 87 times do you think anyone cares whether you like the stats or not? 😂😂😂
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In that case it would be better to take a look at and change something of the survivors objective in general, not buff ruin back to how it was.
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I play both sides actually because I like to know what I'm talking about ^^ gives me satisfaction honestly..tru3 has been one of the most positive influences in the game and yet people like to discredit him simply because he knows better..but I cant blame them..certain people have it too cozy right now
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Yup. Which is why killer players would gladly take a single Tru3 video over Dev stats. Delusional.
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Delusional..delusional is taking the stats even the devs say dont treat as anything as the word of law in this game..that sir..is the definition of it
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If one side only had changes for the benefit of others yes it would show bias but your post clearly shows things which have changed for both sides this says the opposite of a biased mindset.
Balance isn't easy and the game constantly shifts with players adapting to what at the game now is. The Ruin change was just one in a long line and certainly won't be the last.
DS originally didn't have the need for anyone to struggle and was changed to obsession only instand and the others struggling. Dribbling while a very soft counter didn't help versus an swf as they would easily negate it being useful. It also could be used from the start without any conditions so a killer would have to wonder even on the first down. Enduring used to be another help but it made the perk practically useless. If they truly wanted DS to be an anti tunnel mechanic it does makes sense to allow it to gain some actual distance. While I think DS needs some extra conditions like half the counter timer after someone is hooked if they are not slugged.
Every survivor change has been with the benefit of killers in mind. Mains do tend to only see one as justified but not the other. The thing is we aren't privy to the stats which show this and never have been. Each time a change is made the side it affects blows up the forum with complaints.
The Insta heals main focus was not to remove it from the game but to give the killer some time to work around. The main issue with Insta heals of the past imo were the ability to instantly pick someone up by tapping them when downed without them needing to recover.
The meta changing isn't bad and it shows players are just adapting to changes which is what should happen in reality. Each change to aside has shown this to happen and what happens is the players move onto the next thing they want nerfed. It's been happening since day one and I don't see that ever changing.
Post edited by twistedmonkey on2 -
Taking devs stats vs a few videos of Tru3 is delusional?
Get your head checked kid.
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I'll just repeat that when we say we wish to "reduce frustration" against X, that does not mean "make X easier to play against." Less frustrating is not necessarily easier. Often it means shifting the focus from a mechanic to a strategy.
Notably new Ruin is actually really hard on new Survivors. They have no idea what's happening.
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What's the effect on veteran survivors and the resultant effect on killers against those veteran survivors?
No need to respond. We all know the answer you choose to ignore.
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I'd reccomend not calling people kid..makes you look immature..
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but they get notification that there is ruin going and see gen regressing the moment they stop doing the gen, it will be really simply to find out,just tap the gen see what happens and then go cleanse totem in couple minutes to remove something that is not even so strong, basically this ruin, as it is now,is basically a non-perk...especially it being an hex...
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Then why does Merriam Webster list an easy as am antonym for frustrate?
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Guess you didn’t read where peanits explains why it’s 80% and that rank 1 escape rate was actually 43%. It’s been explained many times that it was due to counting the rank AFTER the game. So only survivors who escaped basically were being counted as rank 1.
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So if new survivors also struggle with old Ruin, what’s the difference? One of the reasons you gave justifying the nerf was that it was unfair to new players. Shouldn’t the take away here be that new players will struggle no matter what?
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For two matches. Then they learn what's going on, and New Ruin becomes a wasted perk slot. Honestly, I don't see why you keep pushing this narrative that new players are idiots. A few matches is all it takes to learn what perks are in effect. A quick google search will lead them to the wiki and forums giving indepth descriptions. We all did it, so will they. Not to mention the 'it's a late game Hex' spill.
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The only misleading aspect of this graph is that rank 1's have an 80% escape rate. The reason for this is that if you do NOT escape, there is a high chance you will depip at rank 1 and therefore your escape (or lack thereof) will count towards rank 2 not rank 1.
The rest of the graph is pretty spot on and not misleading. There is an exception for rank 1 and that's it.
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If you want to cite a dictonary you might as well look for the multiple definitions of "easy"
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At the risk of getting into an argument, I'll point out that when I was a new player (so speaking for myself, not anyone else), Ruin would have really thrown me for a loop.
For my first... I don't know... ten games or more, I couldn't even reliably find generators. I just assumed everyone else knew where they were because they had memorized the maps. I didn't know about the procedural map generator.
I am certain that in the panic that ensued when the Killer approached I would not have noticed that little "zap" effect when you leave a gen under new Ruin. I did not know generators regressed over time; I thought a kick caused instantaneous damage, not damage over time.
So I stand by my assertion that many (maybe even most) new players (let's say for their first 10 games) will have trouble with new Ruin, partially because they probably won't even know it's happening. At the very least, they'll underestimate its effect.
It's very easy to forget as an experienced player how shallow* the learning curve is for this game. It's especially easy to misunderstand how hard it is to learn for some players if you're an exceptional type who read all the perk text on the tally screen their first couple games and came up to speed more quickly. :) I regularly see posts like "Man, I been in this game for 2000 hours and I just figured out that the perks are alphabetized in the menu!" (true story, that one)
Even so, this was not the only reason we changed Ruin. Let's recall that I gave three reasons in the dev notes. Two of them were "The passive nature of the gameplay pressure it provides means that there is a huge amount of potential with very little effort or risk on behalf of The Killer," and "Its inconsistency due to the random nature of the appearance interval of skill checks."
*When people say "Steep learning curve", that's backward. Learning curves are time spent on the X-axis, and skill on the Y-axis. If you have to play a long time to get good, then the improvement line is not steep. If it is steep, it means you get good with little time investment. :D
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It's been said again and again that these stats were incorrect, so it makes no sense quoting them. The correct escape rates can be found in the latest stats:
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So why do you never look at making killer less frustrating?
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What people mean with steep learning curves, is not the skill of the player vs time spent. It's the EXPECTED skill level vs time spent.
Some games, get technical fast, like dark souls fpr instance. Others, do not, like pokemon
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What they mean by steep is that it takes more skill to significantly effect the outcome.
Using time played is not a valid measure of skill acquired.
It makes more sense to look at is as the Y axis is effectiveness of the player while the X axis is skill acquired thus skill required is disproportionate to your effect on the game. You need to get x10 better to have a x2 greater impact. That is a steep learning curve.
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Killers are definitely getting stronger.
Freddy is statistically the strongest in the game right now. Definitely top tier. Ghostface is incredibly strong and Oni is very strong too. While I wouldn’t say Demogorgon is quite as strong as those 3, he’s still good with his lunge which allows him to get hits others can’t, instantly break pallets and traverse the map with teleportation.
Compare that to the days of Doctor, old Freddy, Leatherface, Clown etc
The old killers were so basic. As new killers are coming out stronger than most of the old with more mobility/map pressure and as older killers get tweaked and buffed the need for Ruin becomes less.
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^^
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@Almo O, I'm with you on learning gen placements. It took me some time to actually examine the gens and notice the flashing lights stacked on top, so yes. Learning process. But my point is that you don't stay 'new' for long. It only takes a few games to start picking up on things, sparking gens being one of them. Then they'll start searching out why, and come across Ruin. This change will really only affect said new players. How big of a turnout does this game have to justify changing a top end perk for the bottom half? Not to mention that it's still a Hex perk.
The 'passive nature' point isn't all that strong, seeing as Ruin is a Hex perk. High risk, arguably high reward. Saying a Hex perk is 'very little effort or risk' is counterproductive. Not only do you have to defend the Hex, but if it goes, you're down a perk. Seeing how often Survivors will literally spawn on top or near it, or even how often it spawns right there in the open, just makes that point moot. I will agree with the rng nature of the thing, though. There were times I was fixing a gen solo and only had two skill checks, while other times a dozen back to back.
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Who knew making this post while sat on a toilet would actually blow up and isn't just full of people saying your opinion is invalid because you play killer. It's actually nice.
But also from the data being shown.... Its old. Really old.
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Then what about ortzdava's opinion? Or ardetha's opinion?
I'll say this hear. Just because a streamer primarily plays one side in this game doesn't mean that their opinion is invalid,
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And spell here wrong
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The point of this [censoredbecauseforumrules] wall of text is to point out that these arguments don't necessarily prove that the Devs aren't survivor sided because of how the changes end up working out for both sides
And also. Lockers absolutely counter doctor. As soon as you hear his terror radius you can safely get into a locker to avoid his tracking on a 1 min cooldown but your right it isn't bbq. Its a lesser version of bbq that works within the terror radius on a minute long cooldown without the proper aura reveal unless ads ons are being run.
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Balance should never be done around new players. It should also never be done around only high rank players. It should be done universally around everyone; and it IS possible. TF2 has been doing it for years.
BHVR it seems...just doesn't know how.
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Tf2 balances around the higher skilled players.... Its called trickle down balance and uncle dane did a good video on it
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They balance it around high rank players in a way that also keeps it balanced at low ranks. I know of the video.
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Will you stop using 4 random people you got on the streets, as scape goats?
New players don't go against ruin that often, cause NEW killers (yeah, those exist too) don't have ruin, or don't understand the meta.
Unless your match making is fkd up and rank 20 players are going against purple/red ranks... Oh wait.
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But really, who cares if new players (meaning: in their first 10 games) don't understand how Ruin works?
You said it yourself: as a new player you struggle even to find a generator, once you hear a Terror Radius your heartbeat in real life follows it in rhythm, if you successfully throw a pallet you feel accomplished, and so on and so forth.
Ruin. Whatever?
Even Old Ruin wouldn't have been a problem at all for those new players - because don't tell me they realise that they need to go cleanse a totem to remove the hard skill checks.
...that's of course assuming that rank 20 survivors will even face a killer with Ruin, a teachable perk. Oh, yeah, I forgot that right now match making is all vs all :P.
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Awsome.
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I remember the old hatch.
If I saw a Killer camping it, I would just do a gen and prepare my rush over to the hatch. Once I repaired at least one gen, the Killer would bolt over to the finished gen and I would zip over to the un-camped hatch.
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no getting into arguments, it's discussion :)
10 games means means first day of playing!:)
when I got that game for first time I played it like all day long! so that already takes away a big portion of potential for this new ruin.
On the other hand, there is the high (but oet me add also middle) ranks.
Usually games between the green on purple ranks are the more balanced (in the meaning of a kill/survive ratio), now everything will become extremized. Like big portion of those people (mainly survs) ranking uo to red ranks and some depiping pretty fast, punished just for choising a killer which has nit enough map pressure.
About having ruin from the beginning when I purchased the game the ruin was already implemented so I can say I grew up dealing with that perk :D
if it would have been a factor to let me quit playing ,i would not he here in 2020 still caring about dead by daylight.
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You forgot to say every legion change is a buff to bt
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