Everyone says Billy is most balanced character BUT
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It's not a double standard, because their powers are completely different. Spirit's power lacks counterplay: when she goes into phase, it's at best a guessing game or at worst just a timer. She has information on you in the form of scratches and audio, whereas the only input nearby survivors have when she's in phase is occasional footstep sounds when she's already on top of you. That, in combination with a large speed boost and lunge that can make up for mistakes in positioning, makes Spirit annoying to go against. She's not insanely strong, she's just got next to zero counterplay because of lack useable information for the survivor. Billy is the exact opposite. You always know where he is, you always know when he's charging his power, and you know exactly what you can do to get around it. Countering Hillbilly is all about your own positioning: stick near structures that provide obstacles for chainsaws, and force him to M1. Countering Spirit is guess a direction and hope you get lucky.
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My guess with their Billy change is that they’re gonna fix the chainsaw’s hitbox and/or make it more like Oni’s kanabo attack, meaning harder to control. Other than that, not much is gonna change besides the add-ons... I hope.
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Keep saying that and the devs will end up "buffing" her Legion style.
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I play both sides but survivor more. Billy is the most balanced killer.
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And yet in most games Billy is downing my team left and right and so fast it's hard to keep up, meanwhile Spirit is often much slower. This is after thousands of games so it's not a one off or a bad game it's something I'm seeing consistently. Most people that go down to Spirit are the Nea's that stand there or crouch when Spirit is phasing....as if she will magically go away.
As for myself, I find it less stressful evading a Spirit. It's often easy to predict her next move and avoid a hit. Meanwhile you can loop Billy but with the very generous hitbox on that chainsaw half the time you get hit around corners or at times when you really don't think it should have. Also one mistake and you're instadowned. He gets unlimited swings with very little penalty for a miss.
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As is, he has very little control over his chainsaw outside of the initial "curve" duration. Oni's limited range is only during his lunge, which Billy doesn't really have. He had a flick, like Oni did, then it got nerfed, like Oni did.
The only Billy change that needs to be made is reducing the effectiveness of all his charge addons. CTG is absolutely ridiculous and honestly shouldn't exist, much less be a green addon.
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I think they are both pretty balanced. I'm actually terrified of billy getting a "qol" rework. Hag is one that sort of scares me a little with ruin being deleted but we will see.
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Hillbilly is a punishing killer: bad positioning and poor resource management both result in him getting an instadown. But if you play intelligently, he is beatable with structures and good pallet usage. He is not an easy killer to beat, but he is beatable. That's why he is balanced.
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Yes killers are meant to punish survivors for mistakes but Hillbilly is too punishing. The survivors can have one little mistake flip the game in an instant. No other killer can do that.
He has the fastest speed in the game, no cooldown on his traversal unlike other killers, the easiest instadown with no need to "earn" it like say Myers or Oni, and a very minimal penalty to using it unlike Leatherface.
So we have a killer with no cooldown, the fastest speed and the best instadown....yes "the most balanced killer" I'm sure.
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Hillbilly has both a charge up time and a cooldown on every use of a chainsaw, just doesn't have to gather resources like Meyers and Oni. And both have significantly more maneuverability when using their one shot power, unlike billy. Neither also have a penalty for missing and hitting a wall like Hillbilly does. When charging his dash or his lunge, Oni doesn't lose movement speed like Billy does. Each killer has their tradeoffs. Hillbilly is balanced.
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Instadowns
Myers - Needs to delay the chase to stalk survivors. Instadown is time limited and expires.
Ghostface - Needs to Stalk survivors. Instadown is time limited.
Oni - Needs to collect blood orbs, generally by injuring two surviors. Instadown potential is time limited.
Leatherface - Unlimited instadowns, however suffers a HUGE penalty if he misses or hits a wall. Movement speed is slowed down while charging to slower than survivor speed meaning he needs to get extremely close and piggyback to use it.
Hillybilly - Unlimited instadowns. Suffers a minor penalty if he misses or hits a wall. Can still move as fast as a survivor when charging which allows him to rev the chainsaw behind them and line it up without losing distance.
Winner: Hillbilly
Speed/map traversal
Spirit - Can travel a limited distance at 176% speed. Has to wait 15 seconds for her power to recharge afterwards leaving her with no chase ability at 110% speed. Can move freely.
Freddy - Can teleport to any generator in the map. Has a 45 second cooldown
Wraith - Moves at 126.5% speed. Has to unclock once has found a survivor before he can attack. Can move freely.
Oni - Moves at 195.5% speed. Has to have demon mode activated before he can activate the dash so can not use this on demand.
Demogorgon - Can teleport to any portal, however has to place the portals first. Portals can be destroyed by survivors. Has a 14 second cooldown between teleports.
Hillbilly - Moves at a whopping 230% speed however limited movement. Has no cooldown so can turn around and immediately chainsaw sprint back an unlimited number of times. Can instantly go into attack and use his power fully in a chase.
Winner: Hillbilly
So all in all he has hands down the best instadown ability, and in terms of map traversal I'd say it's between him and Demogorgan but I'd give the nod to Billy since he can use his power at the very start without needing to place portals first and survivors can't stop him by destroying portals.
So best instadown and best speed.....and he's the only killer that has both strength AND speed. On top of this zero cooldown on his power so he can sprint sprint sprint and swing swing swing that chainsaw as many times as he wants all trial.
If Hillbilly is "the most balanced killer" then you're basically saying almost every other killer is severely underpowered.
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Hag... Takes quite a bit of know how? She doesn't take any skill whatsoever. Source: I use to play hag alot
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In what world is a free crossmap teleport at minimum every 45 seconds somehow worse than having to traverse the maps at double speed, but if you bump into anything with limited turning ability, you get stunned for 2 seconds? You do know that Hillbilly has a cooldown and charge time, right? And that he can't turn on a dime and gets stunned if he hits something? And while we're making silly arguments, lets do some other ones:
Is Countered by Locker Juking:
Meyers - No
Ghostface - No
Nurse - Yes, but you lose distance so she hits you immediately after
Leatherface - Yes, but you need to know the timing
Oni - No
Hillbilly - Yes
Winner: Everyone but Hillbilly
Is Countered by Going Around a Corner:
Meyers - No
Ghostface - No
Nurse - No
Leatherface - No, unless you're bad and bump
Wraith - No
Pig - No
Hillbilly - Yes, outside of initial curve
Loser: Hillbilly (and Leatherface but he sucks)
I know I'm not going to change your mind. But when basically every top tier player and multiple members of BHVR have all said that Hillbilly is their standard of balance, I don't feel as though I really need to.
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You won't always be near a locker but that's a fair point you make.
As for corners, Billy can definitely hit around corners!!!! and I think that's one thing about him that annoys people, the hitbox feels extremely large. I know it doesn't always feel that way using hillbilly but on the survivor side it seems huge.
When did members of BHVR call him their standard of balance? if that's the case then why is almost every other killer lacking compared to him?
Also according to stats he's the second most picked killer with the second highest kill rate at red ranks, so technically he's "overperforming".
You don't need to change my mind and I don't need to change yours. I appriciate seeing another side. There seems to be two very different camps for Billy, "OP" and "most balanced". I just know that I always felt like Billy was a bigger pain that Spirit due to ease of use. Everyone focused on spirit but thats because half the player base didn't know how to play against her. But then half the player base also pick spirit up and dont know how to use her or aren't confident in using her ability. Meanwhile anyone can pick up Billy and figure it out. They won't have the timing against pro loopers but in general they'll be whizzing around the map and get a few instadowns when the survivor is out of position.
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To my knowledge, both Peanits and McLean have commented on Hillbilly, with the "standard of balance" coming from McLean.
And as for the stats, keep in mind that the period that they made that decision was directly after the SWF changes, where large quantities of lower ranked players were being matched against red rank killers. While comparatively he is still doing better than his peers (he is a top 5 killer for sure), the stats are definitely overinflated. I mean, both the Doctor and Wraith have ~70% kill rate according to those stats, and to say either of them are OP is honestly laughable.
And while we are looking at stats, I think they prove the opposite to your point. Spirit's kill rate for all ranks is around 71%, whereas at red ranks it's 76%. That's only a 5% difference, which implies that she's just as effective at low ranks as she is high. Compare that to Billy, where at all ranks his kill rate is 65%, but in red ranks it's 76%, an 11% difference. To me, that says that lower rank players can be just as effective with Spirit as red rank players, whereas it takes some skill with Billy to be better.
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Maybe that's just your perception? I feel like mastering Billy is very hard. The best Billys are those that are able to curve and that's very hard tp pull off in my opinion. I personally don't find survivor harder than being good with Billy.
I would agree that Billy might be a bit op with Ruin, but that won't be the case anymore very soon. He seems to have the right amount of map pressure and chase potential to keep up with the fast gen times.
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Low rank spirits tend to camp, tunnel and NOED. Every rank reset it was the same. None of them could play her but at low ranks it's a winning strategy.
Billy players could be just as cheap but in general they tried harder I give them that.
@ad19970 Yeah I've seen so many people pick Freddy, Billy, Spirit - all the top tier killers basically, they pick the best add ons and run Ruin and NOED. They're bad at the game but those builds carry them so far. At least with Ruin gone it balances things out a bit.
I do agree Billy isn't as bad without Ruin and Instasaw. I think everyone agrees instasaw is BS though.
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I could very well imagine Billy's insta saw addons being nerfed. That would probably be fair.
While I do get the frustration of the Ruin nerf, and I do think the nerf happened to early, I do also think that perk was a bit too good on those killers that were considered powerful. Billy, Spirit, Nurse and Freddy come to mind immediately.
Personally I don't even play Billy, at all. I suck at him and just can't get his curving to work. So they could gut him and it wouldn't matter to me one bit. But now with Ruin nerfed, I feel Billy is about the balance level all killers should be. I don't even want to know what will happen if Billy's base kit gets any nerf in the next patch. Survivor queue times have already increased enough.
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Well killers have generally been getting stronger recently. Freddy, GF, Demo, Oni...compare them to the killers of yesteryear. It sucks for the underpowered killers but I'm sure they will be brought up to speed eventually.
Truth be told a lot of players aren't that good. I'm sure NOED usage will increase in the meantime and that's a problem because in my opinion it massively skews the statistics and hides the true picture of what's going on in the game.
I don't think things will be that different across the board though. I can't count the number of times I lost Ruin within 30 seconds. Almost any other perk would have done more damage in those games.
There are a number of players who are streaming games without Ruin and winning at red ranks consistently. What's the worst that could happen? if people struggle they'll derank and get easier games. There's no benefit to being red ranks so even if you get wrecked it should work out in the end.
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Hillbilly is broken when compared to Hag. He has one shots on command, the highest mobility in the game, no setup, minimal penalty on chainsaw misses, and full movement.
Hag is slower, has to setup, and her smaller terror radius doesn't compare to the ability of Hillbilly to pop up on someone the second it can be heard. He is also scarcely hindered by pallets due to his power, while Hag has to initiate chases to her traps. Traps can be countered with careful play, most notably when she picks a survivor up.
I don't know why people think Hillbilly is the balanced killer when he's stronger in nearly every category over all other killers, and no killer has been designed around his degree of power. The closest thing we got is Spirit, and she has massive weaknesses to compensate for the strength of her ability.
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True. The last month or two that I have been playing the game, I barely ever used Ruin. And yes the devs do seem to understand what killers need to be powerful enough. Despite a few nerfs to the overperforming killers which in my opinion were justified.
I know that I will keep on playing the game normally as killer. I also agree that NOED is a bit of a problem regarding statistics. But as long as Dull Totems have no other usage besides NOED, I feel like NOED should stay. A reason why I think, if the devs ever want to create a second objective, they should just use dull totems for that.
However, the last two days I've been playing, the survivor queue times have definitely been longer than killer queue times. 80% of all killer players at red ranks were using Ruin so I would expect some people to stop playing killer, at least as frequently as they did with old Ruin.
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Lol, Billy ain't balanced. Dude has massive mobility at no cost and has an on demand instadown with little consequence for missing. Dude is top tier.
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Honestly I think Hag needs map wide teleport in basekit.
My argument for this is right now she excells at proxy camping (objectives in 3-gen, hooked survivor, totems) and not much else unless you're running the map wide teleport addon. This encourages a more camping based playstyle with her. While you can play without a focus on camping, I think a map wide teleport would encourage the Hag player to spend more time around the map choosing more important spots rather than hoping you get a lucky area that supports your traps.
God forbid they even add a dumb cooldown on it like 10 seconds or something I think I could live with that. It feels like she's just shy of being top tier because of her range limit. It's also still not hard to avoid and even cleanse them and even might have teleport delay to avoid her coming to you anyway. Plenty of ways to play around a killer that feels much more threatening.
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No.
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someone already said it, but they were ignored so ill try again. please, tell us where the 20 instadowns per match on average statistic comes from?
without slugging or m1'ing, the absolute most required is 12. i cant speak for every rank here (r8 killer, r6 survivor), but i find it hard to believe that theres an average of at least 8 slugs per match. especially on billy who can already pressure more and end chases faster than most killers.
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Is it possible to sue for getting douche chills from a series of comments?
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I think you dont know how to play hag (not meant in a mean way)
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Billy is HORRIBLE to verse against because he can literally hit you from behind a tree (Just happened to me). His hitboxes are huge for no reason and all he has to do is right behind you with RT then you instantly go down. He's balanced but not at all fun to verse. And even against co-ordinated SWF Hag will dominate. I just dont think you've gone against or are a good hag. (Not meant in a mean way)
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Because Bubba is geniune trash and you can just out run his saw.
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THATS WHAT IVE BEEN SAYING!!! <3
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Oh god what do we say D:
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Eh I never use Ruin on Hag and I get pretty decent 4-3ks up in red ranks she doesn't need game delayers that much unless you REALLY wanna secure the 4k
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Im not sure you played her well then.
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Shes 100% top tier. Hags who camp with the traps already don't play her right.
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I dont think your have never went against me.
Play hag vs my premade, or Michi, or whoever and if they not dc like Micho did they will get stomped.
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The number was an exaggeration obviously there are no real statistics.
My point was that when I face a Hillbilly 90% of his hits are instadowns with the chainsaw. This isn’t true for LF, GF, Oni, and its rare Myers would do it but if he did he would be delaying a lot of chases for stalk.
I get that’s his power but when practically every hit you get on a survivor is an instadown maybe, just maybe that’s a tad overpowered?
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That is not true. And you know what, I think it is this kind of mindset, your mindset of Bubba is trash, screws up many many survivors. I usually do really well with Bubba because people tend to think Bubba ez baby killer then ######### up and get 4ked.
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Difference is, Billy is fun to face.
Hag is the most boring killer ever made.
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I do, though. She's my second main. Doesn't stop the fact that against competent survivors, she's as bully-able as anyone.
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That is true.
The only problem with her, is how easily she can be countered by anyone with 30 IQ, making her powerless.
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That's exactly what I think a lot of people are saying. A mediocre Billy beats mediocre survivors because that's the definition of asymmetrical gameplay when one side is supposed to be the power role. It's balance in the context of this genre. Most survivors are really bad. That shouldn't be the impetus for nerfing a killer, because those players will always find the skill floor regardless of how low it is. That's true of almost any multiplayer game I've ever played.
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As I said though killers can punish survivors for their mistakes, Billys snowball is like a brickwall. One survivor goes down to him instantly, he hooks, sprints across and before you've had time to unhook the next he's already instadowned and is hooking his next victim.
If you get weak survivors you can't keep up. All you can do is tbag and hope he chases me, but then he thinks I'm being toxic but really I'm just desperate to buy the rank 17s some time.
It wouldn't be that bad if matchmaking wasn't broken and constantly putting me with noobs. A rank 12 killer will normally beat a rank 12 team, but a rank 12 billy will annihilate a rank 12 team. I just feel like his snowball is a brick wall and unless you have a team of good loopers then he's going to wreck the team no matter what.
If these were good Billys I wouldn't be as bothered but in most cases they really aren't.
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If survivors constantly go down to his chainsaw before the other survivor can be unhooked, then they are just playing very badly.
What you are describing really seems like a matchmaking problem.
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Hag the most boring killer? You misspelled Freddy Kruger.
Just a matter of an opinion. I don’t find Billy fun to face. At all.
Hag is decently fun to play against in a chase. It’s just that her playstyle is extremely campy and return to the hook.
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It's still quite slow and takes tons of practice, Removing Tinkerer deleted all the instasaws in game
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If they hug an object billy can't buzz them no matter what any addons he has, kinda like oni's terrible attack. Billy's pretty fair and you basically have to stand still to get chopped. Unlike oni he can actually steer his power, which is nice but takes skill since he's going so fast
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Clown, Hag, and Billy, I believe are 3 of the most well balanced killers.
Clown could use some work though.
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I literally just run in a straight line and bubba cant keep up
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In my opinion hag is most fun to VS and Billy is the 2nd worst killer to face
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Shes my second main too and telling you you just don't know how to play her
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