Can We All Just Take a Moment?
...to just breathe. There's so much frustration and anger going around about these changes, and I think it's just one big group mentality of people hopping on the "they killed the game" bandwagon.
No, they didn't kill the game.
From my survivor perspective: "Queue times are so long now, killers are camping/tunneling/using NOED more/ so much more now, etc.." I sit around rank 4/5 and my queues have been instant since the update, and I haven't had instant queues in a long time. Killers have always camped/tunneled/whatever, you're just noticing it more now and pinning it on the ruin change. Killers should be aggressive. They're... killers? Switch up your perks if you feel the need. Also, maybe try cleansing a totem when you find them on the map rather than only caring about finishing generators so there won't be a NOED at the end.
From my killer perspective: "Nothing to stop gens now, so many toolboxes, can't win, etc." Admittedly, I don't play killer as much, but I usually sit around purple ranks with killer as well. I don't even have ruin as a perk on killer and I have managed to get to purple rank without it. Many people play at red rank without it, and without camping/tunneling/slugging/whatever. Calm down and learn how to apply gen pressure properly (yes I know, some maps are huge, but that's a map problem, not a perk problem.) Survivors have always brought tool boxes, you're just noticing it more now.
In case you forgot, this is supposed to be a PvP survival horror game. It's not supposed to be a walk in the park. You're not supposed to be able to just sit and do gens without having killers after you, and you're not supposed to be able to just easily slug a survivor within 5 seconds of finding them. Also, the new ruin? Super powerful if you know how to apply gen pressure. If it stays up, it can completely ruin (teehee) a game for survivors as long as you keep them off gens, as you're supposed to. If it gets cleansed early on, well. Then you're just in the same boat as you were when the old ruin was cleansed early, aren't you?
Comments
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I can't speak for anyone else, but the Ruin change isn't what had me mad. For all I care, they could delete Ruin; I've never used it.
The problem is that for many updates in a row, not a single core-game issue has been addressed, and more issues have been introduced.
Dedicated servers have been delayed for nearly half a year. Completely unbalanced, massive maps remain unchanged; so many of them have linkable loops that last forever. Every single update bugs the sound and multiple Killer powers. Keys, Moris, and Toolboxes still exist.
It just gets tiring after being around for so long and seeing no core issues fixed.
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Maps are getting reworked. Just very slowly.
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NO WE HATE CHANGE RAAAAAGE
AND THIS GAME IS OUR LIVE RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE
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Queue times were less than 5 mins as survivor and as killer less than 30 sec. Red ranks on both (Surv 2 and killer 1)
Matchmaking is still broken
Ruin was always a "training wheels perk" that I NEVER used
The Doctor is Amazing Now.
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Great post. People link effects to the wrong cause too often and even make up effects where there are none. Fix the bugs though devs
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Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of bugs that I wish they would fix sooner rather than later and matchmaking is still pretty bad, but I'm just tired of seeing the whole "ruin nerf killed the game" thing over and over again.
Also, let's not forget that changing a perk like that could properly allow for generator speeds to be reworked. It's all a process that requires patience and adapting. *Shrug*
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Aight, let's break it down:
"Ruin is why people are mad". No, ruin is just the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. The game has for a while now been getting changes that ignore the killer experience and focus the survivor experience. Ruin was changed because it feels bad for the survivors to go up against, Doctor was changed because he feels bad for survivors to go up against, Spirit, Nurse, Legion, etc. The last two major survivor changes were Insta-heals and BL, insta-heals were the equivalent of if Iri huntress heads were hitscan and BL was overtuned compared to the other exhaustion perks, and created insane/infinite loops on some maps. These were well overdue balance changes.
In the last dev notes even when they tried to talk to the killer experience about Ruin, they missed the mark. Ruin isn't there because "boo hoo muh emblems", you still got silver emblem with Ruin, Ruin was there because it bought that precious few extra seconds in the early game to allow you to set yourself up in the game, to get a down without hearing Ping Ping Ping and seeing that 5 drop to a 2. When talking about Doctor, one of the weakest killers in the game before his rework, the focus was on how it felt for Survivors to go up against him, no mention for the Killer experience of playing Doctor, which was awful.
"They needed to remove Ruin to take a look at gens". No they didn't. Let's not kid ourselves, no they didn't. They might claim that's what it was, but in reality they could pull data for ruin-less games from so many sources, there's been many showcases of how stupid gen speeds are, it's evident to anyone with functioning eyes and a brain that some of the maps are simply too big to be effectively traversed by anyone but Billy, Wraith and maybe Freddy, I would say nurse but without addons she's barely faster than a 115% killer. If they were gonna ship a major change to the only perks available to stem the bleeding that is the insane gen speeds in the early game, the worst idea was to ship it raw with how the game is in its current state.
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So your first point. I don't think they worded the doctor changes correctly tbh. These changes were definitely made in the interest of killer players, not survivor. He's much, MUCH stronger now, so to continue being upset over some writing seems a bit silly at this point. I still stand by the point of ruin was such a crutch to most players and they still need to just learn how to play without it. Also, my point of the fact that ruin is still a strong perk, still stands.
Second point, if they wouldn't have changed the perk now, they would've changed it later, after gen speed had been looked at, and most likely people still would have been in an uproar over it. Was a lose lose for them really.
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Why would people be in an uproar when the issue that Ruin was seen as a temporary fix to, insane gen speeds, were fixed in the same update as a Ruin nerf? I'm sure some people would be upset, no doubt, but without the issue of killers being unable to even get a foot in the game before 3 gens pop far fewer would see this an an ill-conceived change.
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It's not great, I swear some people defend bhvr's bad balance decisions like they're in an abusive relationship
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Because the player base always throws a fit with any big change? Ruin turned into a crutch perk for average players to help boost them into thinking they were better than average. Even if gen speeds were reduced, with that mindset they would have continued to use Ruin after the nerf and would have still been dependent on it being what it was and being useful, so they would've complained either way.
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No, we're just able to look at the bigger picture of the game, or just don't care at all, like most of us with the Ruin change, because the performance of killers should not be based on one single perk, ever.
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This.
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But it was, which I think is a problem with the game rather than the players. Ruin definitely should have been changed, but removing it without fixing the game balance was a bad move.
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It wasn't removed though... Have you tried actually using it since the change went through? I swear to you, the perk is stronger now. Use it, and patrol your gens, and they will never get done. And as I've said many times now, if it gets cleansed in the beginning, then you're in the same boat as with the old ruin.
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We don't have time to breath in matches anymore :) People want to bully others.
The can just
Tired of being civil & open for discussion when these matters of balance, bugs & matchmaking are treated like jokes.
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A lot of killers can't patrol gens on the larger maps. If you get azarov's resting place or red forest, survivors could complete the first gen before you can even walk over there.
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The new ruin is so bad it's not there, anyone saying it's stronger is biased or delusional, come on
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Again, that's a map issue, not a perk issue.
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False, I've played against it at red ranks and it's still strong. Gens just don't get done if you actually play killer properly. Gens regress at 2 TIMES the normal speed with tier 3. You just want to complain.
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Strong because you don't know to just stay on the gen? Why even bother with the totem that regression is still so slow there's no serious penalty for leaving
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Or strong because some people know how to play killer and keep survivors off of gens? Do you often have killers that are okay with you just sitting on a gen in front of them? Man I want to play against those.
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Exactly my point. They should have fixed the game before they removed Ruin. If maps were balanced, killers wouldn't need it.
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Map balance, Totem placement, matchmaking and certain Killers have/can suffer from the changes to Ruin.
I've been using new Ruin on Pig and I have been loving it. I still have other Killers to test out New Ruin with, that used old Ruin (Plague, Freddy, Trapper, Leatherface, certain Michael Myers builds and Clown)
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Truth is this change (ruin) affects only worse players (survivors who wasted time searching for totem and didn't even tried to work through it/ killers who didn't realise how crap ruin is in reality). But this will affect ranking, in one week r1-3 will be full of medium killers who shouldn't even be r8. In two weeks red ranks will be mix of every kind of player like it was back when ranking up was easy.
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I'm still stuck on how you keep saying they removed Ruin. It's not removed. Removed means gone, non existent. They simply changed it. And if you think about it, it does the same exact thing as old Ruin, except it reverts gen progress instead of just slowing it down. You just, you know, actually have to do things as killer to make use of it.
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Now I'm beginning to wonder what gen speeds and such were like before the Hag/Hex: Ruin were even introduced.
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Yeah there's many different factors that contribute to how the games go, but that hasn't just become a thing with the Ruin change. I can definitely see it working well with all of those killers.
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I'm a bit confused, are you saying the Ruin changes are going to be more beneficial to average players then? I've seen most who think the higher ranks will actually be a better place full of better players now with the change.
Personally, I don't really care much about rank. Any killer get get to rank 1 by playing scummy, but it doesn't mean they're good at the game. Same with survivor.
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You actually have to play a killer with high mobility to make use of it.
FTFY. It's useless on killers who can't move across the map quickly.
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You know, I've been thinking about that a lot too. What did the killers do back then, just lose all of their games?
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Another thought that occurs to me, if map sizes are an issue and given the changes to the Gatekeeper Emblem, would it be worth simply letting those generators go? Sacrifice a couple generators you can't readily defend anyway, keep an eye on the ones you CAN, and any emblem points lost in the first gens being done can be earned back, if I'm remembering how Gatekeeper was changed correctly (I could easily be wrong there, I didn't look at it as closely as Doctor or Ruin)
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That's actually what I do on some maps that have a disadvantage to gen set up. Keep pressure on one end of the map, force them into three gen-ing, sometimes even four gen-ing themselves, and then they're frankly kind of screwed.
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@Siren Ruin used to stop bad survivors and carry killers facing them. Killers who cannot stop bad survivors now, without it, derank, crap survivors rank up. They will be facing medium killers who will obliterate them and rank up like crazy. That's why soon red ranks will have much more killers who are simply not that good. Soon after medium survivors will be red ranks because of so many boosted red rank killers. And that's how red rankse will mean nothing. We have seen this couple of times now. Of course this will happen gradually, not over night.
Edit: Oh, and you will see mainly Billies, Spirits, Trappers and Demogorgons. Occasional old nurse mains aswell. Corrupt Intervention every game, of course so it will be nerfed too.
Then im quiting and stick to Warframe
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@HazeHound Eh, ranks haven't meant anything for so long already. It's easy for killers to get to red ranks by just playing scummy and slugging everyone. And red/purple ranks have been full of crap survivors for a long time as well. Corrupt doesn't really do much but push you towards the killer, it only blocks the three gens farthest from the killer. shrug
As far as the killers go, it seems the Doctor is the newest trend. Which I don't mind right now, as I need to learn how to play against the new changes.
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Thanks for the slippery slope
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Red rank survivor, I've seen the success it can have, if you don't cause half the survivors to DC from it.
Purple rank killer, I don't slug/camp/tunnel when I play killer unless a survivor teabags, so I can't vouch from that side either.
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How am I supposed to "actually do things as killer to make use of it" as soon as I chase one survivor three others will be on three other gens which take 80 seconds to do each. And let's just say I decided to leave that survivor to "pressure other gens" after chasing them a bit they can jump onto another gen and as I go to another gen to pressure it. Two others will pop because other survivors are on two other gens, with another one on the way as well as that gen you tried to pressure being almost done. Ruin also goes down in like 15 seconds every game so what's the point
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pick the gens you pressure with some forethought?
"This map is huge, the gen on the opposite end will be almost impossible to defend... Ill focus on this side of the map and those three gens specifically to make my job easier later."
Tactics... if survivors should be smart enough to avoid a 3-gen, killers should be smart enough to intentionally trick them into a 3-gen.
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Ah yes, double regression rate, which is why kicking gens was always so strong. Wait, what's that, base regression is 1/4 of vanilla survivor repair speed?
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Calm down and learn how to apply gen pressure properly (yes I know, some maps are huge, but that's a map problem, not a perk problem.) Survivors have always brought tool boxes, you're just noticing it more now.Everyone knows that it isn't a perk problem. Clearly you don't pay attention to the actual discussions surrounding the Ruin change. The fact that killers so often used Ruin was a symptom of the underlying problems. The problem with the change is twofold. One, is that nothing was done to change the underlying problems before nerfing the perk. In fact the underlying problems were not even acknowledged by the devs. The second part of the problem is that the change was just poorly thought out. It is not anywhere good enough to be a hex based perk yet remains reliant on a totem that often gets placed right out in the open.
Stop with the "You just have to apply gen pressure" nonsense. People know what they need to do. You can't apply pressure everywhere at the same time. On the large maps you can't even get across the map without one or two gens popping. Gens can be completed far too quickly. Many maps are horrible for killers to try and patrol gens. infinite god loops make it ridiculously easy to evade the killer and waste his/her time, while the gens are worked on by others. SWF teams can just tag in and out on gens so they never suffer any meaningful regression. Repairs are at least twice as fast as the regressions. No other regression perks can be used with the new Ruin.
No, the new Ruin is nowhere near "super powerful". It wouldn't be even if it wasn't totem reliant, but it is, which just makes it useless. The regression is too small compared to how fast they can be repaired.
Again, I have to ask, why is it that only killers have to improve their gameplay? The ruin change was put in place to make the game easier for survivors. Good survivors had no problem completing gens with ruin on them, and could still do them very quickly. If they found the totem along the way, they removed it, otherwise they just powered through. Even I could power through them, and I rarely make great skill checks.
No one minds them changing the perk so that it was less frustrating, if it had been done is a good way, and the underlying issues were addressed, but it wasn't and they weren't.
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Trust me, I've paid too much attention. I've read everything. I've listened to the streamers talk about it. With all the info I've gathered, I agree with the side of the coin that it's just average players needing the crutch perk, who now can't stand on their own two feet cause they've either never learned or forgotten how to properly play without it.
Yes, maps are an issue. This has come up time and time again. We all know. There are ways to get around the map issue though, especially with the Gatekeeper emblem change, if you're worried about your emblems and points.
No, you can't apply pressure everywhere, it's about applying pressure at the right spots. Using things such as Surveillance (couples nice with the new Ruin), Discordance, etc. It's called map presence and monitoring. Yes, you have to use your brain to play killer and make smart decisions. Sorry.
Yes, the new Ruin is very strong, I have first hand experience, others have confirmed. Would assume you haven't used it properly yet or are among the masses who aren't even giving it a chance.
Did you miss my whole first half of my original post about how survivors also need to stop bitching and learn how to play well as well? Both sides need to learn how to actually play the game. I won't go over it all again, you can go back and look.
Min maxing perks is how we've arrived at this whole big debacle anyway. Survivors rush through gens, so killers play scummy to win. Killers play scummy, survivors rush gens or DC. Killers complain about survivor perks. Survivors complain about killer perks. It's literally the same old story, every single time.
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Yeah, I'm glad you read about it and listened to streamers, though that is irrelevant. I love how survivors keep referring to it working well with surveillance (I guess I know what you've been reading), while ignoring the fact that Ruin is a hex that can be removed very early, and surveillance on it's own is not that great.
There are 4 survivors who can all do gens separately very quickly, especially with toolboxes. There is no way to be in the right spots for 4 different people.
I love the gatekeeper reference. More talking points from the devs. Clearly you do more reading of the one side of the coin. That is not what concerned people, and it certainly doesn't "fix the map issues".
I know my limitations as survivor, and as killer, very well. My ego is not tied up in the game. Insulting how I play the game without having any idea how I actually play, is the sign of a weak argument.
Also, based on your previous posts you are claiming to have skills that you don't actually have, so quit acting like you are an expert, and somehow better than the rest of us. If you want to claim that the new Ruin is powerful, make a video of you playing killer going up against top rank survivors. Show us how you are always in the right place. Until then, it's just talk.
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Couldn't have said it better
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I've asked other killers who run both perks when I come up against them how it's working, and they have always said it works well. I take info from discussion threads in here from regular players, dev posts, survivor main streamers, killer main streamers, and info I gather with questions I ask in the end game chat. I generally take the info outside the forums more to heart, cause the forums are generally the people who only have negative things to say and are blind to any positives.
Also, if you know how a game works in DbD, you'll know that survivors generally spawn together and generally do gens together. It is very rare that you would find each survivor individually on a gen.
I was not insulting how you play the game, I was assuming you'd had no experience with the new ruin. But that's fine, make it personal.
I'm not sure when I claimed to have skills that I don't have...? I have said, I am a purple rank killer who doesn't use ruin. Not red rank, not rank 1. I don't really care to sweat my way into red ranks, they're irrelevant really. I have plenty of games where I fail miserably and all four survivors escape, but it doesn't bother me, cause it's just a game. I rather just have a fun time and try to make the game fun for the survivors as well, a concept that some people seem to have lost sight of, but you're right, insulting someones game play is a sign of a weak argument, so kudos there.
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This. Plus a lot of the changes are made without consideration of Console (Nurse Rework basically killed Nurse on Console, and there weren't many who played her to begin with.
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Yes, you have to use your brain to play killer and make smart decisions. Sorry.That sounds like an insult, otherwise why would you apologize to me?
Now, i know that most popular streamers, that play killer, have not claimed that the new Ruin is very powerful, in fact it is just the opposite. They generally feel that it is weak and should not be a hex perk. Of course the survivor main streamers are in favor of it, but those with any amount of objectivity can see that it is a poorly implemented change. And of course the devs are going to defend it, so their comments are not worth much. It was clear that was what you were going by when making your comments. You were just restating what they said, as if it was a valid point. It wasn't when they said it, and it isn't when you repeat it. The devs don't understand the problem, so neither do you.
You can claim to have talked to anyone you want, it doesn't mean anything. The fact that you claim that they all think it works well, just makes your claims even that much harder to believe.
Also, if you know how a game works in DbD, you'll know that survivors generally spawn together and generally do gens together. It is very rare that you would find each survivor individually on a gen.They spawn together with offerings. They might do the first gen together, which will often get the gen completed before the killer even gets to that side of the map, which is certainly not a good thing for justifying the new Ruin. Even then they get scattered pretty quickly once the killer finds them. Besides, with out the old ruin slowing things down, and map pressure being a bigger issue, it makes more sense for survivors to be on different gens on opposite sides of the map. If you actually played killer, you would have noticed that. A single survivor can finish a gen on their own in a little over a minute. Even with the travel time between gens, they can be done very quickly by decent solo survivors. With coordinated swf groups it goes ridiculously fast.
You claim it is very powerful now. Prove it. You claim to have experienced it first hand, and that you know how to control the map to be in the right place. Show us how powerful it is, rather than constantly using survivor main talking points and making baseless claims. I'm not a killer main. I was a survivor main, now i play both. I'm open minded. Show me how powerful it it is against good survivors.
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doesn't work in the end unless you're playing Leatherface or Myers something. they can just mob the gen and win out in the end. you whack one, they go off and self-heal. you try to chase, they just mob the gen and do it anyway or run to another gen. in the end survivors win that war of attrition unless you're playing someone that can get exposed and down multiple survivors quickly.
that strategy DOES work if you're doing good in the game and have at least one down but if you're up against some SWF sweaty tryhard group then no lol
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Sure, the killers I've spoken to in game must be delusional then and feeding me false info. We can run with that. I don't care if you believe me or not, cause I know what I'm saying is true. The fact that you're demanding such hard evidence with no consideration that it may be true, shows you probably won't change your mind no matter what I say or show.
Yes, how well Ruin works now is situational. It always has been, there's many factors to it. It's the same between the old and new. There's many situational factors to how all games will go.
You don't need an offering to spawn together. All 4 most likely won't spawn together, but more often than not I always spawn with at least 2 other survivors right around me. I don't know if you'd consider that something that should be changed or not to where the survivors always spawn separately from each other. Personally I think it's easier to know that I probably have to head to the gens farthest away from me first, as that's where they'll probably be, together.
SWF is a whole different ball game that the devs still need to look into for some kind of nerfing. A good SWF team will run around even the best killers in the game.
I have stated before, I don't have Ruin as a perk on killer so I have never used it. I've never cared what they did to Ruin, I learned how to play without it as a crutch to my game play, therefore I would have to record every single survivor game I play until I came across a killer using it and I honestly can't be bothered, because as stated before, some games the ruin is gone instantly and it's useless. Some games, the killer just doesn't apply a lot of gen pressure. Some games, you get completely slaughtered by the killer because they're good at gen pressure, with or without Ruin.
Besides, you don't need this "hard evidence" from me. You can go play your own games, you can go watch streams. I'm not bothering to provide you with info you can gather yourself. It'll probably be ignored anyway.
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