Scott junds gen slowdown video devs look at this
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I suppose for me it's the fun of trying to not get seen. The tension of knowing if you are seen you probably can't run to safety in time. To me hiding from the killer gives me more of that horror movie aspect I originally expected from this game. I'm a huge Halloween fan so trying to hide from Myers is great. Especially when you don't see him at first and he's stalking you. Gives me a little jump. Like ######### how long have you been there.
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Which still leads to alot of wasted time early game.
I've had it happen a couple of times actually. I agree that the killers fun matters. That's why I want a second objective to slow the game and give them time. I just dislike this idea of trying to force interaction.
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It's not that people can't loop or play aggressively, it's that they don't enjoy it as much. No one ever claimed that Scott's idea negates stealth completely, only that it punishes it in the early game, which it does. Stealthy players still want to be useful. No one has fun just hiding in the grass in the corner waiting for someone else to get found so they can start being useful.
I'll say it again - it's a good idea, and it has merit, but I think it's a problem that it essentially makes survivors useless until they (or someone else) gets found by the killer. You shouldn't have to go out of your way to contribute to your opponent's objective in order to start making progress on your own.
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I mean i dont know about you but about 90% of the stealth players i see hear a heartbeat and waste time running away even if the killer is in a chase with that being said it's not wasted time the thing is it's 4 to 1 you are telling me that the chances of a good looper trying to get the killers attention which would remove the penalty wont happen if you are i completely disagree with you on that.
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I think you can already stealth in @ScottJund's idea because you can just wait for the killer to find someone else first. Then after the TWU, you can just jump on a generator. 😁
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That's true, but as I explained above, it's also missing the point. Survivors shouldn't have to wait for the killer to start making progress on their objective, or go out of their way to make that happen, before they can make any meaningful headway with their own.
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That's a problem with bad stealth players. So many of them don't use their heads. You are right that there will be the games where their is the player that wants to loop gets in chase quickly. Unfortunately a good chunk of those players are bad at looping/think they're better than they are.
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But it only requires 1 survivor to end this mode.. the other 3 could still be stealthy.
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Read my comments above. The point is that they only have two choices - throw themselves at the killer, or be useless. There is no option to be both stealthy and substantially useful in the early game under this system, and therein lies the problem.
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Actually, a survivor shouldn't be able to stealth their objective easily, which is why you need to know when it's perfect to use stealth. Using stealth early game can help you avoid the killer and start working on a generator, odds are, the killer is going to find someone else and you will lose the penalty. Someone will have to be the first target, regardless of you like that or not — if survivors could just get by stealth, then they can lead into boring games for both sides.
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"You shouldn't have to go out of your way to contribute to your opponent's objective in order to start making progress on your own."
Neither should killer, but that's currently how it is, as soon as you commit to the first chase you are basically letting 2-3 gens go.
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There are way more killers without map control then there are those with map control. it's easier to nerf those killers a bit after this new mechanic is in place then buff all of the other killers to their spot. On top of that buffing all other killers doesn't make for much diversity, because the problem is they have no map control, but if you give every killer map control then why have different killers to begin with?
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That is incorrect, they can choose to do other objectives and remain stealthy, such as look for totems/hex perks or look for chests. And if this were implemented with some sort of timer like 2 minutes, then there is a clock on it where you can start doing gens. The perfect amount of time to get your bearings, figure out what killer it is, be a bit stealthy, and take out a totem or 2 or find an item in a chest. Then go hop on a gen.
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Actually killers with really good map control would benefit almost nothing from this mechanic because they'd start a chase immediately. That's the point. It equalizes those with and without map pressure in the beginning.
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We would only be enraged if billy gets nerfed and nothing gets done for gen speeds.
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I'm not saying survivors should only rely on stealth. I'm saying it should be an option early game, just like in the scenario you're describing. The only problem is, survivors can't use stealth to start making generator progress under this system the way you describe, because generator progress is slowed to a crawl until someone gets found by the killer.
Leaving your opponent to make progress on their objective so that you can make progress on yours is pretty much the opposite of going out of your way to help them do theirs. It's not comparable.
Again, please read my wording more carefully. There is nothing "substantially useful" about searching chests or doing totems at the start of the game.
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I agree with the idea!
It would give me a signal of when to climb out of the locker at the start of the match. It would be happening sooner than waiting for an injured survivor status change, wiggling obsession tendrils, or idle crows!
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I don't think you're understanding the point of Jund's suggestion. Or maybe you are, and find it unrealistically unfair.
Stealth early game is still completely possible in this scenario, it simply LIMITS the progress survivors are able to make in the first few seconds on the game to allow weaker killers (or killers with set up) to not fall behind so terribly in the early game.
Nobody is suggesting you block all generators, just reduce the speed by which they are repaired. The chances of encountering 4 survivors who all prefer a stealthy playstyle in one game is rather low, so in practice you'd be having this debuff for a very little amount of time before someone else is found and the normal game resumes.
Even if all 4 survivors preferred a stealthy playstyle, it makes no sense for stealthy play to be optimal, as opposed to risky play. Otherwise we might as well have AIs for killers.
After all, being truly stealthy you are not moving fast (in order to not leave scratch marks) and avoiding potential confrontations with the killers, which means you'll be stepping in and out of the gens often when the killer is around.
Now before you say "But why must my playstyle be penalized?", it's being limited in the beginning because the gen rush meta is a big problem in this game (especially for setup heavy killers), and as survivors, taking this small nerf at literally the first few seconds of the match will improve the health and balance of the game greatly. Does is affect stealthy players more? Maybe, but such is the way of balancing, your preferences sometimes get affected more than others.
Finally, please keep in mind this is literally just in the beginning of the game. It can last 10 seconds and have pretty much no impact, or last 80 seconds where a trapper or hag are able to set up without 3 gens popping, from which they are extremely unlikely to recover.
Yes, it's a small nerf to survivor objective speed, but I think it's not only necessary, but balanced enough to not cripple survivors in the late game, when they are arguably weakest.
Most of all, it's EASY to implement, as opposed to re-balancing every killer, perk, item, add on and map. BHVR would just have to iron out some details that could be exploited by certain killers, perks or items and this could be live in a few months.
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That's the point, you can use stealth to avoid the killer and hopefully they will find someone else. You're in a team of four survivors, if you like stealth, then hopefully your have teammates that like to take agro of the killer.
If you're entire team is stealthy, then yes, the game won't progress until someone does something. I believe this is fair because if no one is doing anything, then of course the game shouldn't progress — why should it progress when no one is doing anything.
It's like saying there's two survivors left with a generator to complete, if both survivors are being stealthy because they are afraid of the killer, then of course the last generator won't get completed. The game shouldn't reward you for hiding in a corner or locker all game, anyone can do that.
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It's not that the game isn't rewarding people for hiding, it's that it's discouraging them from pursuing their objective. I'm sorry Nick, I know you want to have an interesting discussion about this, I'm just too exhausted today 🙁 I wouldn't have commented on the thread if I'd known it would be so contentious.
All I'm trying to say is I like the general idea, I just don't like that it tries to force the survivors to be aggressive. If there were a way to implement it without penalising stealth builds so heavily, while still being fun for killers, I would be all for it.
I feel like you didn't read my original comment on this thread. I actually like Scott's idea, I just wish it weren't so polarising. I would be happy with it if only some adjustments could be made such that it doesn't affect stealthy players so much, while still being helpful and enjoyable for the killer.
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I did read, but what you're proposing simply isn't possible with the design of this game.
Killers NEED to interact with survivors to do their main objective, survivors do not need to interact with the killers to do theirs.
So the very nature of stealthy gameplay penalizes the killer by denying them interaction opportunities. Therefore it makes perfect sense the stealthy playstyle is penalized (or really, just less heavily rewarded) than the playstyle than encourages interactions.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. Riskier play should have greater reward, not the other way around.
(That wouldn't be the case even with this change, due to the strength of some loops/maps, but it's the right direction.)
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If it's not possible, then it's not possible. But I don't think any of us have given this idea enough thought to be certain of that. Maybe there is a way to make it work better for everyone involved. That's all I'm saying.
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They need to fix matchmaking before they fix balance.
Seeing green rank killers getting a red rank survivor in the dying state 5 seconds after a chase started just feels wrong.
#revert rank reset
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from base game stand-point, I don't actually think early game is that bad for killers. Killers that have inherently bad early games are INTENTIONALLY meant to be bad early game. This is because killers like Trapper, Hag, Myers are suppose to be stronger in the Trial as it progresses. Are they actually stronger as they progress? The long answer is no, but short answer is yes in some regards. I don't want to go in regards explaining how trapping or meter-type functions like EV3 create a weird opportunistic cost for loss current killer momentum for a chance to get greater return on investment later, that's an entirely different topic. The only thing that changes for killer when you have bad early game or good early game is how many generators you start with. A good early game is starting with like 4 generators and bad early game is like 2 generators on first hook. Since Soloqueue players badly optimize the objective, you can often pause the game fully against bad teams by downing players quickly. Those games are winnable as most killers but sadly those aren't the tough games as killer. The harder games to win are those where your downing people rapidly, but generator progress continues at consistent pace. I think Otz has recent video where he plays billy and that video somewhat describes hard games to win as killer. It is like your winning every chase rapidly, the survivors aren't making any crazy or particular good looping plays and yet, your losing generators very rapidly. Some will put the blame of SWF for that, but I think it's more that doing objective is over simplified, so therefore survivor's main claim for it to be boring but in reality the objective for survivor needs to be a bit more mechanically challenging. Hex:Ruin used to do that but now that mechanic is retired. I don't think your mechanic particularly addresses this skill problem issue for survivor and your mechanic might as well just be using Corrupt intervention in your perk build.
Hopefully future updates look to make killers more threatening so they can end chases faster to keep up with the pace of the game. I think the killer can be faster if they invent reliable instant down perks that allow killer build momentum quickly. For example, you can make perks like every time a survivor complete generator, entire map gets exposed effect for 30 seconds or like a perk that makes it so that if a survivor entity blocks a window, they suffer exposed status effect or if the killer breaks 2 pallets in the same chase, they suffer exposed. Just interesting mechanics that survivor would start questioning how they pop gens, whether to use god loops knowing they could get exposed or modify pallet uses. Instead of looking to make the game slower, we should try come up with idea's that makes the game faster and keep pacing for survivor as it is currently.
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Just giving my 2 Cents afer seeing the video and not fully reading the thread.
While I would agree that Stealth might be a factor, I dont think it should be that relevant. Stealth as totally evading the Killer is not present anymore in DBD. You simply cannot do that with all the Mechanics introduced which make it impossible to hide from Killers (Legions Feral Frenzy, Plagues vomiting, etc.). It is quite clear that the game is not heading into the direction of Stealth Gameplay, so it should not be much of an issue. And that 4 people in high Ranks tend to be stealthy af is quite unlikely. There are people who play stealthy on high Ranks, but usually they are the minority (by far) and that a game will only progress really slow because nobody gets found will most likely not happen.
However, for newer players this might be a factor - new players tend to hide more. I know that I was that guy that hugged the wall the whole game when playing for the first time, so it MIGHT take a while to get to normal progression speed on really low Ranks, which can make it really unfun for new Survivors, when they take ages for the Generators. So maybe only introduce this Mechanic at a certain Rank.
But unsure about that one, since I did not participate in low Rank Gameplay for a long time.
The BP-Scoring...eh. I dont need that. 1000 Points (most likely Boldness) are not that much, considering that I get max Boldness nearly every game, since it is probably the easiest category to get points in. And if I run into a Insidious Leatherface, those 1000 Points I got for being the first found (and camped) will not make me happy either.
Once thing, that needs to be adressed tho are AFK-Wraiths. People are already farming XPs for AFKing with Wraith for the Archives (only had this two times so far, but I know from the forum it is happening to others as well), and if a Wraith hides in some Corner, it is impossible to trigger any of the Conditions to let the game proceed (except for getting near to him, which can take a while as well). So someone who wants to farm XPs for being AFK, will have a even better time, because the game will be much slower and it will be highly frustrating for Survivors (same would apply to Chest Protector Bubba - you dont want to get that close to him that the Slowdown disappears).
I would say, a maximum of 2 minutes should be enough to let the game to get into normal progression rate. This would not make it too frustrating to wait out if the Killer is doing AFK-Wraith or similar, and will also be more than enough that a competent Killer can get into a Chase without a Generator being done. 2 minutes are also a good time for Killers like Trapper to prepare, if they want to avoid Survivor Interactions for the start of the Match to actually build a Setup.
Overall, I like the idea and I think it is also kinda fair. People will stop complaining that Gens are done "too fast", while still not giving advantage to the Killer in the Lategame, where he is already stronger than in early game.
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Alert, Technican, Poised (+ Sprint Burst), Lightweight, Urban Evasion, Fixated, No Mither, Iron Will, Calm Spirit, Lucky Break, Dance With Me (+ Lithe), Quick and Quiet. There are quite a few perks for such situations, its certainly doable.
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i really hope that if they dont implement this its cause they have another idea
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The guy in the video said 50% slowdown, but it doesnt have to be that much. And even with this slowdown, stealth players can still do generators, while waiting for other players to get found or initiate a chase.
Its not possible to not penalize stealth builds AT ALL, because the main problem with early game is that Killer CANT FIND surviviors and start applying pressure. The only other way would be to add secondary objectives, but as devs said, they are not intrested making them, at least not yet.
So basically: secondary objectives are 1000% better idea, but devs dont want it (yet). The idea explained in the video is the BEST bandaid fix possible without adding anything new to the game.
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I like the idea. Except the graphics, I doubt it'd take long to implement, since it's just adding 50% slowdown until a chase gets started. I'd be up for the devs testing it in the upcoming PTB, if they can manage to add it.
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Love the idea. Bumping so this thread gets pushed back to the top. Interested to hear feedback from the devs on this.
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Its so just killers dont get gen rushed to hell
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This is a great idea that would really help the killer in the beginning of a game and with a 2 minute timer survivors can instead try to do totems and chests instead of gens which makes those tasks seem more rewarding since doing gens at this time would be longer and less rewarding. The only issue i can see with this is survivors purposely getting into a chase to end this state of the game so i would make it so it only ends if the killer hits someone, grabs someone, or if 2 minutes pass. Otherwise it can be canceled before killers can set up like hag and trapper since a survivor could just run up to them then run away. The killer can also not easily abuse this since survivors can still do gens and the slowdown will end after 2 minutes.
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Maybe for the warm up event make survivors have a endurance when the phase ends? But instead of getting injured and have deep wound effect maybe just deep wound?
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Also maybe disable killer powers because of ghost face, doc, and myers
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Y’all complain a lot 🥱🥱🥱
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This is going to inherently buff set up killers like hag and trapper. So firstly IF this was even implimented. Its likely that set up killers would probably get a notable nerf to compensate. Secondly, he generalized super hard on the potential problems this would cause. There would need to be specific rules for each killer an scenerio. Cause with this idea of a trial warmup sounds great. It also is killer weighted meaning using something like stake out for survivors wouldnt be incentivized meaning this only really is just a buff to killers if they wanna use it. If the rules were refined to also mix up the survivor meta then this would be alittle more inviting of an idea. As all the killer mains rallying for this should know, this is a change to entice killer survivor interaction in otherways since survivor side win con is just m1 simulator. I think if this were to be refined ALOT more it would be interesting. The only problem with this is like i said. Is if used properly, this is basically just a giant buff, and i mean a MASSIVE buff to killers as they essentially (at this point in refinement) just get a bunch of free time to scope out and set up a game while the survivors basically just cant really do anything. If they get items like he suggest then that just strictly benefits killers because the game is drawing out which is beneficial to killers. I mean ######### if theres a solo guy working on gens. Depending on the impact of the set percentile slowdown on gens. Killers could LITERALLY see someone working on a gen ALONE and ignore him since it wouldnt be worth breaking trial slowdown to chase someone when you could scatter a bigger group. I really like the idea of this but this at the end of the day is a giant buff to killers. I honestly think killers just need a bit of help in the ranking up department. Cause ive deadass seen killers get like gold medals across the board not pip up thrn say its the games balance. Two completely different things peoole. Going from that i think one of those steps would be buffing mori kills. If you get a 4k by mori. You shouldnt depip. While it defintely makes thr killers life easier as it removes entire hook states from a survicors life. I dont think the punishment should be so severe that its actually a burden to use. Now keep in mind i DONT want moris meaning easy rank ups. There still should be some reduction but maybe not THAT bad.
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You could mention some Team design developers like mclean, Almo, Janick ..
Regarding the idea it would be a very interesting idea as I commented in the video. It would be easy to implement, but I think that some slight modifications would have to be made some perks? It would be great if a designer came out to comment and gave his point of view.
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While not a bad idea as such I do have one concern.
While this trial mode is active what is to stop each survivor just waiting out the 2 mins?
When gens go that slow they aren't really worth doing or just overall boring so they may just stealth around doing totems or finding chests or hiding in lockers moving around.
Since the video does state ineraction between both side is what is the most fun aspect (I would agree to an extent but some do prefer to try and not be found) the begining interaction has a high chance to be easily worked around by certain playstyles. It seems to go against this interaction idea when it could end up just 2 mins of looking for the killer.
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- Set up killers are already rare and not too strong
- This change would be great, because it would actually force surviviors to actively distrupt the killers setup time instead of ignoring him and genrushing.
- Obviously something like secondary objectives would be way better, but devs said they dont want to do it. This warmup is a badaid fix for broken maps and gen speeds, and really not much else.
- I think you are extaggerating with the buff part, because only a few killers require setup time and it can be easily distrupted by survivior rushing into a kilker, while other killers wouldnt even feel the change. Take a Billy for example. How would he benefit from that? He wouldnt. He would sprint across the map for 20 seconds until he find the survivior, and that would be the end of the warmup.
- I feel that moris are an easy way out, just like keys, but I wouldnt be against slight buff to moris caused by perks (Devour, Rancor, etc) becouse those require a buildup and it shouldnt be punished.
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The same thing stopping survivors from waiting out corrupt intervention
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Maybe just reduce the stalk speed the same way gen speed is reduced.
Also reaching T2 as Myers and Surviviors Revealing you as Ghostface should end the warmup phase. Making surviviors scream as a Doctor or as any killer should end it too.
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Then thats 2 minutes of the survivors deciding not to do anything and getting punished for it?? This is the same argument people used when Corrupt just came out, saying it was trash. And most killers should be able to find someone within 2 minutes, even if all the survivors decide to play immersed
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They won't get punished for it as the game would start as normal once the timer is up meaning the killer still has to find, chase, down and hook one to get the pressure started.
Corrupt argument doesn't come into play the same was as the survivors still can do gens at full speed and as above the killer still has to find, chase, down and hook one.
It's very easy to not be found if one so wishes not too at the beginning if you don't run around, touch a gen or do anything as without whispers the killer doesn't know you are in the area. The logical thing to happen then is for the killer to move around patrolling all the gens while looking around. No indication means moving on to the next and timer doesn't change that.
While this change may help killers like trapper to setup it doesn't really help the other less mobile ones. When they have 7 gens to constantly check you could say after two rotations the timer is basically done.
The issue with gens isn't always about finding the first one but how long it can take some to down them.
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Which is a goal I agree with. I disagree with how he wants to achieve that.
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I do like this idea, the start for Ghostface & Myers would have to be different, however, because they could all stalk without even getting into a chase and then decimate, and you can't simply set it to "if these killers stalk turn it off" because they're basically always trying to stalk.
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Wth...depending on a perk sounds a little unhealthy.
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I think both issues are major concerns. Besides, chase times are a map/killer problem while time to find someone can easily be remedied by a system like Scott's.
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Thanks for sharing, just so you know some members of our team have seen the video.
As for myself, I like the idea but at the same time I am not 100% convince. This is that kind of stuff that needs to be discussed.
Post edited by PatBrutal on53 -
Of course it should be discussed. What are you guys thinking?
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Scott mentioned that the Trapper and Hag would have time to set up traps.
Inb4 all you have to do is just run at the killer beginning of the game to prevent that.
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