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"Crutch" Rework
Please read all of it before responding. It's a lot. But if you do read you will see I'm not biased. I'm trying to be logical from both sides. And please be constructive. We are all working towards a fun and balanced game here. Let's stay positive :)
BTW: I'm an ex-killer main turned survivor main because of how much less stress it is in my opinion. I do stream and would consider myself good at both sides if that matters to you.
DS: Anti-Tunnel perk. Yes it stops tunneling. But it also ENCOURAGES the survivor to be more bold due to immunity (particularly when paired with unbreakable). I run it so I can get off hook and take the killer on another chase. Especially if it's close to the end of the game cuz I run adrenaline too.
Fix: If another survivor is downed and hooked, DS deactivates **as long as you are not in a downed state** In that scenario, you were no longer tunneled. Because the killer is on the other guy. If he downs you first. You get the full duration. That's it. Might need more. Might need less. But I think that's a start.
BT: just make it an exhaustion perk. If it takes your SB or DH to get to the hook and the killer is on your tail... You shouldn't be unhooking! Unhook safely OR if you have no choice (camping) then make sure you aren't exhausted before you make a bold move to unhook in his face. Also adds the option to NOT use BT if you want to keep your exhaustion / the killer isn't nearby. It's a free health state. All other "free health state" perks are exhaustion perks. Seems fair. Doesn't change much. But makes it more of a decision than a passive use thing.
DH: I think it's fine IMO. It's hard to use properly. If used well, it's great. But I'd say 75% of the time it can just be baited because people don't know how to use it properly. High skill cap for a high reward (of a free health state. At the cost of exhaustion).
Adrenaline: Unpopular opinion I think this one is okay too. Though I think the Sprint burst should only be if you are already full health.
Injured? Free heal. Applies/Refreshes exhaustion.
Healthy? Sprint burst. Applies/refreshes exhaustion.
To me, a heal is a free health state. A Sprint burst is a free health state. If you are getting chased at the end. Adrenaline gives you TWO free health states. The Sprint will get you to a loop, the heal makes em need to hit you twice again. That's a bit much. Either is fine. But I think both is just a LITTLE much.
None of these are big changes. Nerfs? Yes. Technically. But it doesn't change the core function of the perks.
It would however remove a lot of toxic behavior (intentional or otherwise) that can be done with it if you chose to abuse the mechanics.
We should all be aware that if a hook saver gets hit, blade cleaned, picked up, and placed on hook, that the guy who got pulled off the hook wasn't tunneled. The hit, blade clean, pick up, and hooking animations of the other guy were PLENTY of time for them to get out of there. The killer didn't tunnel so DS shouldn't be active. And if the killer DID tunnel... Chances are you got BT AAAND DS will still work! Double whammy tunnel boi.
All that being said. What do you think? And please please don't just say "no" or "git gud" or "don't tunnel". If you disagree with me that is FINE! I welcome your opinion. Just please be positive and give some explanation when you give it. I worked hard on this with examples and everything. I'd ask the same if you feel strongly against my opinion. Thanks for reading! Don't get lost in the Fog.
Comments
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I agree to an extent, but these perks wouldn't be as much of a problem if the core mechanics (maps and loops specifically) were fixed.
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Although I think everyone has said that decisive strike rework, I am a big fan at what you suggested with borrowed time and making at and exhaustion based perk.
Dead hard is a fine perk as it is and when I play killer now I just expect it so I run up until I’m directly behind them to see if they have it. Always works because survivors (including myself) usually dead hard when we see the red stain on us.
I like the Adrenaline one as a killer. I’ve never used it on survivor so I’m not sure if they would like the changes, but I think this is fair game as it’s often used with other exhaustion based perks,
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BT compromise: doesn't activate while exhausted, user becomes exhausted when the unhooked sponges a hit. It activates in a 28m range instead of TR.
Make it so another survivor getting downed and hooked won't deactivate DS while the user is slugged and we're golden.
Good post mate.
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Also as an exhaustion perk, BT would be optional. You don't have to hold shift when you unhook. And you get to keep your exhaustion.
DH is tough to use. Often you have to read the run and be like "if I run to that window I won't make it. But if I dead hard now, I will". Often times the best uses are BEFORE the stain to make it to the next loop. But in a situation where I don't have that option. Yeah. See the red stain and smack E.
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100% gonna go edit post and throw the DS part in there. Agree. And I'll add some words to edit what I meant by the BT exhaustion. I like mine a bit better.
Regardless of getting hit, if you give someone the ABILITY to have a free health state. It should cost you your exhaustion. It was your perk. Your gift to them.
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Hmm I guess that makes sense, but why should I be punished for doing a safe unhook in the TR?
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People suggest that DS nerf all the time but all it does is make killers with high mobility even stronger. Down someone new when you've already got someone on the hook? Just wait 5 seconds and that other person will be unhooked almost guaranteed. Boom hook the new person, activate BBQ and chainsaw/teleport/phase walk/blink right over to the newly unhooked survivor who is being healed or running away.
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You aren't. If you hold shift then you have them a health state because you THINK they will take a hit. You thought it was unsafe enough to unhook with BT. So you get exhausted.
If you think it's safe. Don't hold shift. Just regular unhook. No exhaustion nor free hit.
It's not a punishment. It's a choice you make based on how dangerous you think the situation is.
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Not quite. If they were downed while you were on the hook then it won't deactivate DS. You must be off the hook. And someone must be
1: put into the dying state
2: put on a hook
All while you are NOT in the dying state. If you go into the dying state before BOTH of those conditions then you still get your DS.
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I feel like making BT an exhaustion perk will be bad for those with SB trying to save a person who is being camped. They would have to remain in a walking speed while rescuing which is terrible lol
Killers would just abuse it and keep downing the same person
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Ahhh ok my bad, I didn't realize they needed to be both downed and hooked while your DS is active. That's much better IMO.
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Oh yea I missed the whole choice part. That's interesting and a pretty good idea.
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True. You would have to make that decision before the match and decide that if you want BT then you will need another exhaustion perk besides SB. (Which if you would like I can explain why I believe ALL exhaustion perks are better than SB.) But you are right. SB and BT would counter each other like No Mither and Self Care
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Thanks, I worked hard on it to think of both sides.
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Of course there are multiple solutions to any problem. But id imagine changing some activation conditions would be easier to code than a reword to randomly generated and structured loops and map layouts.
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I notice you are up here a lot. Isn't it crazy how good posts are like 4 comments of people saying "oh this is good and balanced" then there are salt posts of "killers just need to git good and blah blah blah" with hundreds of comments. Makes me feel like people don't actually want improvements. They just wanna complain and argue.
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I suggested in another thread that BT should have a 10 second wait period before you can get the benefit. However, the TR requirement wouldn't be there anymore. Now survivors can't "hook tech" into BT.
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10 seconds is too much time if you really were in an emergency. I think it should activate immediately. Because often times the guy getting unhooked gets hit when his feet hit the ground. But if the unhooker gets exhaustion it will be even more reason for the killer to go for them instead. (No exhaustion perks to use now)
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Oh I think you misunderstood what I meant. The UNHOOKER has to wait 10 seconds before they unhook for BT to proc. But because of this, no more TR requirement.
So if you unhook in 9 seconds. No BT. If you unhook in 11 seconds with a cloaked Wraith/Night Shroud Ghostface/crouched Pig, etc, then BT still activates.
I hope this makes more sense! 😊
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Oh you meant within 10 seconds of the survivor being hooked! Thought you meant the unhooked person has to survive 10 seconds before BT. Ok. Makes more sense.
That isn't bad. But it resolves one issue, which is the immediate unhooking. Which isn't REALLY an issue. As you can usually just grab them off or hit them, they unhook, you hit them again. I don't see that one as a major problem. But perhaps that's just me.
However, my idea also has no TR requirement. You simply hold shift if you think it's dangerous. And BT will activate and exhaust you.
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I tend to get people who unhook under my nose. I wanna deny those lil feckers their Benevolence points.
However, if gens aren't being pumped out, the unhooked guy becomes invisible to me for the next 30ish seconds after that. It's not his fault people are trolls.
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Nicely put together thread, and although I disagree with most of these "fixes" I think you did a great job explaining each point.
I think for me, I will only touch on one thing that I think can be used to argue much of your reasoning on the sort of gameplay these perks encourage, because I don't agree that they are mechanically broken.
As a survivor, your job is to survive. Everyone knows this. Part of surviving (in the general term) is also finding the courage to make bold moves in whichever form that applies. In this game, many people seem to have an issue with that, and honestly I like the bold moves survivors make sometimes because it makes the match more exciting.
Many times I have had DS and I've made it work for myself when I traded hooks with someone else and the killer had to guess whether I still had DS or not. On the other hand, I've also had killers who baited it out or were smart enough to understand my "plan", which ended up in them getting a 4k.
My point is that much of the complaint has been the way survivors use these type of perks, especially if they like the interaction aspect with the killer. DS for example, was never strictly made to be an anti tunnel perk. DS is literally a move drawn from Laurie Strode's lore when she stabs Michael as her last resort to escape his grasp. In one of the comments one of the devs specifically explained how if you happen to find the unhooked survivor again, it will come down to a strategy at that point. Which is in line with the movie lore.
Camping and Tunneling are luxuries that do not deplete or end. Unlike these perks. Many killers in all ranks use these tactics because they work. So, many of the survivors who bring these perks have to plan around a killer doing either one of those two, because unlike guessing perks those two are always available.
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While I can agree with a lot of it, I would hope you can see some of the unhealthy gameplay aspects that it can cause. A survivor repairing a generator right in front of a killer and hopping in a locker when he gets close.... Yes, mechanically and gameplay wise it makes sense. It was the right move to "survive" as you put it given the perks taken.
However, I don't think a survivor should scare away a killer in any instance out of fear of a perk. Imagine if Michael saw Laurie had a weapon. Do you think he would run away and wait for her to drop it before he came back?
Like... I take on another chase after being unhooked. Why? Because I have DS, DH and Unbreakable. If he's close to catching. Hop in a locker. Picks me up? Stab him. Or if he downs me normally. Picks me up? Stab him. Slugs me? Unbreakable. Then do it again but use dead hard this time. Throw on looping strength... It's just a lot for one survivor to be able to do to a killer who is supposed to be murdering. Cannibal should be eating me. Not pallets. But that's another argument.
The killer shouldn't be scared of the survivor in my opinion. And these changes would help take some of the power from the survivors while still leaving the perks functionality in tact.
If the killer plays fair and fun, chases the unhooker and downs them and the unhooked person runs up for the save. What can he do? Smack and slug and camp? Because if he picks up he gets stabbed. Leaves them and they unbreakable. So stand there. And camp. And that's what a lot of people are doing. Because it's one of their only safe options. And it's no fun for anyone. Just a few extra examples. Thank you for your feedback though!
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I don’t get why everyone rips on DS and BT yet give a free pass to DH/Adrenaline.
Two of them are defensive perks. Complain about how they’re used all you want but they are primarily defensive perks for the epidemic of killers that just want to proxy camp the hook and tunnel one survivor out.
DH and Adrenaline serve no such purpose. Its just a free heal or pallet to punish the killer simply for chasing the survivor.
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None of these perks are crutch perks. This just shows youre biased towards killer.
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Correct, but the "defensive" ones are drastically more debilitating when they are used improperly. Whereas DH and AD can't really be abused and are thus balanced. Still strong! Very strong if used right. But it doesn't punish the killer for being the killer. It rewards you for being a good survivor (using DH right or taking a properly timed chase for AD). But if you go down before adrenaline pops. Or they bait your DH... Oh well. They countered you. Skill vs skill.
The two being mentioned for rework are being used in unhealthy ways. Such as farming and sandbagging other survivors, or punishing the killer for being a killer. If he downs someone, hooks them, and turns around and you are still there unhooking in his face. And he downs you and picks you up. And you get to stab him, unhook the other guy who gets BT and can body block a hit for you. Throw on DH for both of them. You did nothing wrong as the killer but just had 2 people escape.
There is a difference in balanced strength. Vs abusable strength. That is the line I'm trying to help point out.
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If none of them are crutch perks, neither is NOED.
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Oh they aren't crutch! Lol. You don't need them to be good. And I'm not. Currently I'm not even playing killer. My killer rank is.... 15? I think? I don't even know. And I'm red survivor.
They aren't crutch. I was just calling them what everyone else does. They are definitely strong perks. And I use them because of their strength. But I also abuse them. Because I know how and I can. And I've been on the receiving end of it. And it's not fun. So I'm working to point out the flaws that I find when I use it. Like bringing a gun to a knife fight. Fun. But it's not really fair to the guy with the knife.
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I agree. NOED isn't a crutch either! Nothing is a crutch. It's a game. And it's an option. But some things are just overtuned. No need to put a negative name on it. It's an option. One that would potentially be more fair with changes. NOED is no exception.
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I disagree, they DO punish you the killer for being the killer.
I don’t camp nor tunnel so DS/BT barely ever affect me. If I see someone try to rush an unhook in front of my face I go after the person doing the rescue so DS and BT don’t come into it.
Meanwhile everyone has DH, I chase the survivor and they get a free pallet. I’m punished for chasing them. Or the last gen pops and 3 survivors all get an instaheal, again I’m punished for playing the game. These two perks are far worse than DS/BT.
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They are much stronger in the hands of the fair. I agree. But I don't think it's broken. Bait the DH. The heals sucks I agree. 3 heals. Ouch. It might need a look at.
But!
Let's say 2 people have DS, BT ONLY. No other perks just to keep it simple. You hook one. Other else makes the save. So you down and hook the unhooker. And the first guy comes right back. What do you do?
You have 2 survivors in front of you. One on hook. The other injured with BT on him and he's going for the save.
If he unhooks them in time, they will both have DS and BT.
If you catch him in the save, he will DS you and save the other person. Now both have BT active and one has DS active.
If you hit him normally he will eat it with his BT and unhook and they will both walk away with DS and one with BT active.
In that scenario as killer. You have 0 options to keep your guy on the hook. None. And that is unfair.
DH can buy you a loop and such. But DH can't guarantee two people escape a hook. Strength vs Abuse.
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I don’t really have a problem with BT unless someone tries to block- the exhaustion perk idea seems cool but that means you can’t use it with Sprint Burst at all unless you walk to the hook... maybe they can slightly decrease the timer, remove collision from the survivor for this time and give the unhooker killer instinct for the duration of the BT to increase the stakes. I’m not too sure what to do to it really - just kinda popped out! You could also disable its usage while injured so the name becomes a bit more literal, “Borrowed” time
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But because some killers refuse to leave the hook right from the start of the trial, this is exactly why we have perks that can grant the survivor the ability to escape the hook.
I mean you could leave one on hook and slug the other and camp them both if needed be, its gonna force the 2 other survivors to come for the rescue anyway so it’s not all powerful.
If 90% of killers didn't just decide to hound one person all game and sit arounds hooks then we wouldn’t be in this mess. Most killers have nobody to blame but themselves.
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Exhaustion add-ons would be a problem. Just gotta be sneaky I guess. Time it properly. One distract while another goes for the BT save? That's a tough one. But it could be pulled off. Would just take skill. Which I think would be more fun than "BT is immune to killer add-ons"
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I think you misread. You couldn't slug him. Because he just got unhooked. He will take the hit and get the save.
Person 1 gets hooked, person 2 unhooked them.
Person 2 gets hooked.
Person 1 has borrowed time if you hit him (so he gets the save).
Person 1 also has DS if you caught him in the middle of the unhook animation.
So he gets the save regardless. Slugging wasn't an option here.
The fix to DS would remove this as a possibility.
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You just won't be able to run SB with BT. Like any other combination of exhaustion perks that don't work together.
Like you can't run DH and SB. Same concept.
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how about going to video game school and making your game
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It was more so about the exhaustion factor. Sprint burst means you have exhaustion all the time so no BT, can’t save a friend in need. Blood echo means you can’t use BT while injured, every add on that has to do with exhaustion means you can’t use BT, with Pig’s traps and the slow release toxin, can’t use BT. It’s too counterable if you get what I’m saying. Chances are you won’t get to use BT at all because you’re going to likely run into these exhaustion killers- Pig, Huntress, Demogorgon, Oni, Clown. (Especially the clowns and huntress, I see lots of exhaustion add-ons because they can’t afford a sprint burst or dead hard.) I don’t see the point in running it if it’s so easily countered. Throw a bottle and poof, no help for the hooked guy, hatchet to the face? Move on. Stepped on Demo’s portal with the Whistle (I think that’s the add-on), nope, no save for you. Your idea is brilliant but it is so easily countered Id ask myself is it worth running.
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Eh, honestly, my idea on this is just - quit being so altrustic. Yes yes, I know the Devs whine and cry if we don't play tag on the schoolground - but let's be real. If a killer wants to camp/secure a kill - then go do your gens and stop trying so hard for a 4-live. Yes it isn't fun for the one being camped - but the game should not be catered around the idea that the Survivors should get to be buddy-buddy and save each other without any decision-making or tough calls.
Also, take a look a why Killer's camp to begin with -- to guarantee a survivor down so the game slows down some; to punish toxic survivors; and because Survivors are so hardwired to need a 4-live that they will abandon their gens and all 3 will freaking try to make their way to the hook for those juicy unhook Bloodpoints.
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If that was the case then you would never get to run any exhaustion perk. Dead Hard, just don't use it. Lithe, just don't use it.
Yes add-ons can cancel it by adding exhaustion. Just like they can cancel any other exhaustion perk. It definitely wouldn't be so meta. Which is the point. What would be the new go-to? This would still let it function just not quite to the extreme that it's on right now.
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Ds - your change would effectively make the perk useless for a majority of the matches. More often then not, as soon as the killer gets into a chase is when another survivor goes to make the save. Often times the 1st survivor has just been unhooked with the next survivor going down very shortly after. Hooks aren't spread that far apart and usually are hooked only a second or 2 later. I more often see killers immediately to tunnel the first guy, than I see survivors abusing the perk. If you are going to make a change like this, then what do you do about these killers? To give survivors a fair chance? You take that away, then you best have a solution for that.
BT - again you are killing the use of the perk by adding another penalty to it. If you have that ohh so lovely camper killer, sometimes that speedboat in to make the save is all you have to get them out. So what so you do about the campy killer?
I won't deny tha th the perks can be abused, but as a survivor, I've played more rounds with camping and tunneling killers than with survivors who abuse perks. The best fix you can get to the perks is do something about the killers who make these perks almost mandatory.
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Exhaustion would not only counter speed burst perks then, as clown especially, you could just negate all borrowed time and just camping it out. Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s a great idea and could work out well but you have to find the little issues that can be exploited and make the game unfun - eg spamming exhaustion bottles as clown, prevent any exhaustion perk, including the new BT and be able to sit and camp. Sure, it’s not effective in any way to win a game but I’d be it makes the game pretty boring for the hooked survivor.
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But less points is awarded for the camp.
I sincerely doubt killers camp for bp
Also to tell survivors to quit being so try hard for trying to get a 4 man escape from a camper is incorrect.
Tryhard survivors will just rush the Gens and force a depip on the killer
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Look if you respond and want me to go into specific detail with each on of your comments made i will but a tl dr if you want an honest opinion, you sound like you got caught in alot of bad chases that ended up being a waste of time because you disrespected perks and dont know when to cut your losses. Things like your BT and DS changes are so ######### specific its unreal, and are trying to justify unessecary changes with specific scenarios. If someone is literally unhooking in your face with bt. Youll just down the rescuer. If i have 30 seconds left on my ds cause my rescuer wasnt that good at looping and i turn back to help him and you get me down and i ds out. Thats such a specific instance of bad timing and getring unlucky.
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Well I don't play killer much these days. And every game is abusing these perks cuz I'm the one abusing them lol.
DS. You can't tunnel the first guy if you were ending a Chase and hooking someone else. Tunneling is based on the term tunnel vision. And if the killer is spreading out his kills then he doesn't have tunnel vision.
As for this being useless. It's not. If the killer truly has tunnel vision it will help. And if it worked the way I said, it should work for every hook and not just once per match.
BT... There are opportunities to save from a camping killer. In reality BT I don't think was made for a facecamper. The counter to a facecamper is the deranking of a facecamper. If you facecamp regularly you won't stay in high ranks long. Also. Chances are if they are so close that you can't get in there with regular sprinting. Sprint burst probably isn't going to help either.
However, BT counters proxy camping pretty nicely. And being able to hold shift to give someone an extra hit will help counter proxy camping. BT also helps counter the issue you said with DS where the killer hooks one and goes for the recently unhooked. BT is there for that. And in my idea. Terror radius isn't a factor. So... You can give BT to anyone if you so choose.
These are just my thoughts. The perks still counter tunneling and hitting right off hooks. But at more cost to the survivor. Devs are all about "free rewards for no work" being removed. Such as old ruin. So the same should be for survivor. If you want to unhook someone and make them invincible for a little while. It should cost you your beloved exhaustion to do so. In my opinion. Then again. I don't run BT. I run the other toxic perks cuz I'm better at using them to their fullest.
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They are specific I agree. But those specifics are what people are complaining about. If I all out proposed a "Nerf it to the ground" proposal, it would be like the other salty posts.
These ideas are not trying to make the perk useless. Like you said, it only effects certain scenarios. The ones that are using the perk in an unfair way, outside of the confines of what it was designed for. You shouldn't run in to save your friend and escape because of an anti-tunneling perk designed to punish tunneling. You should escape from skill or other skill based perks like DH.
As you said. They are specific changes. So it won't effect the majority of players. Which is why I think it's fair. It leaves the perk in tact for the majority. But there are dumb aspects like repairing a gen in a killers face and hopping in a locker when they get near because they LITERALLY can't touch you (a scenario that I didn't even address in my change. Even THAT is still in tact). Or they can waste a minute staring at your locker. Which is also a waste of killers limited time.
Again. I'm not trying to nerf it to Oblivion. I'm trying to change it so it still works but not in unintended ways.
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I agree. A clown dedicated to camping would then counter BT. But let's face it. If a clown with exhaustion bottles is camping that hard. BT isn't going to be a gamebreaker.
But it would give BT more use in other ways. What about times where you were outside the terror radius? Perhaps they are stealthed with NO terror radius. Old BT doesn't help with pig, ghostface, t1 Myers, wraith, hag.... My BT would work wonders for those because you can use your exhaustion to guarantee a safe rescue. And stop most other campers just as easily.
I think the added benefits in many games would outweigh the loss of a few clown games.
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BT is fine the way it is. Killers shouldn't camping and tunneling. It's simply not fair for the survivor.
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If you are the one abusing them, then maybe you should stop and then watch how matches go.
As for Tunnel vision, It doesn't meant the killer won't go after someone else, while you're hooked. The problem is while the killer is in a chase, has hit (or has exposed or chainsaw, etc.) and is about to down someone when you get unhooked, He will down them, hook them, then immediately come back to you. Essentially playing ping pong between just those 2 survivors. He won't give a crap about the other 2. This is still tunneling, the only reason why he will target those 2 at that the first was on the hook longer than the killer expected and can see he now has 2 he can bounce between. I can guarantee you, if that 2nd person wasn't hit, or he couldn't get them down in 1 shot, He will return to the hook immediately to go after the first.
As for borrowed time, The other person said it best, with how many clutch perks used to save yourself, HO, BL, Lithe, etc, adding exhaustion to a perk designed to help your teammate is overkill. you're forcing the choice, Do I bring something to save others, or something to save myself? The fact that these perks can work in Synergy, isn't something that should be punished. If you do start punishing these, then you know survivors will want any killer synergy perks nerf'ed as well. No using Dying Light with Thanataphobia, Agitation, with Iron Grasp, etc.
Faulting the perks design for your abuse of them isn't the issue that needs to be addressed, The reason these perks were put in is the issue that should be addressed. Again, If the number of camping/tunneling killers dropped dramatically, the need for these perks to be in the build in the first place would be gone. Survivors will use more than "Meta" perks during the match and it will probably be more fun for all. Personally I'd like to go back to using Self Care, Botany, Streetwise, Empathy, and run around with a med kit healing. but so many camping, tunneling killers in the game, I must regularly run BT, DS, Lithe(or BL,HO, etc), and Unbreakabill, WMI, or Iron Will.
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Adrenaline should not activate when the hatch is closed.
"You are fuelled by unexpected energy when on the verge of ESCAPE."
The verge of escape, not the verge of peril.
I've said that NOED should not proc from the hatch being closed. "The last remaining Survivor has very little chance as it is, so why should NOED Proc?" The counter-argument was that if the Killer found the hatch first and closed it, then the Survivor has pretty much lost and deserves to die, so NOED doesn't really change anything.
Why then, is the Survivor on the verge of escape when their death is almost guaranteed with the hatch closing. Death is Not an Escape.
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