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Killers are weak (Devs read)
I sincerely hope that this gets noticed by BHVR, because the issues killers are facing are seriously ridiculous.
This is probably going to be a long post, and I don't plan on making a Tl;dr, so buckle up.
Does anyone see the issue with Tru3 and Otz making alot of videos along the lines of "TOXIC SWEATY RANK 1 SMURF CRINGE 4 MAN SWF VS DOC"? Doesn't that kinda conflict with the game looking to be "casual pvp"? Also, why do they feel it is such a big accomplishment to go against optimal survivors? Doesn't that mean that kind of imply that survivors have the uppers hand? I don't think they are just catering to a bunch of bad killers, since he reaches well over 100k on these videos.
I took a break from Dbd for a while, and got back to playing Apex Legends. I actually felt like I had an equal opportunity against my opponent, even if they had a better gun, or a better body shield, or even better addons. It felt amazing being able to outplay an entire squad, and that got me thinking.
Dbd lacks a LOT of outplaying.
There is no skill in running from safe, un-mindgameable pallet to pallet. There is no skill in taking a full 30 seconds to get from one gen to another. There is no skill in the survivor dead harding to a pallet to avoid getting downed.
There is so little that the killer can really do besides run in circles and waste their time. The game doesn't give the killer equal opportunity to outplay the survivors.
I have a challenge for every person that plays killer regularly: Play another pvp game. Try it out for a while, take a break from this game. Apex Legends, Destiny 2, Fortnite, Smash bros, almost any other online pvp game really. It feels so much better than playing killer.
It would be kind of silly to bring up these issues without solutions, however, i've been able to identify the biggest hindrances to Killer v Survivor balance. Map design, Perks, and Items.
Map design is for the most part awful. I think a great example of how not to make a map is the corn maps. They have all the things that create a bad killer map: An easily accessible, strong center structure, un-mindgameable pallet loops, loops being too close to each other, and the map itself being huge. It is no wonder these maps have the highest survival rate (55%). The changes that need to be made to this map in particular are simple. Balance the center structure's windows, create an in-game value to help prevent the randomizer from putting loops to close to eachother, add more to standard loops to make them more mindgameable (i.e putting hay bales in the tractors, making other structures taller), and making the map smaller. Small maps are good for killers AND survivors since it promotes more interaction between the two, which is more skillful, and it rewards strong loopers, while killers don't lose too much gen time simply because the walk there is so long (which isn't skillful)
This check list for making sure maps aren't too powerful for survivors would dramatically change how killer feels. The only reason people used Ruin so much was because of terrible map design. Ruin's nerf was just another bad band-aid fix that addresses very few aspects of a bigger problem.
I think survivor's perks having a somewhat greater effect than killer's is justified. It would be boring if all the perks had a similar effect like killer's (Bitter Murmur v. Dark Sense), but... survivors have items to compensate for the lack of an ability. It's literally in the same slot area as killer, so wouldn't that be kinda unjust to have really powerful survivor perks? The best perks killer have are usually aura reading (Bbq, Nurses), or things that help in a chase (Enduring + Spirit Fury is almost mandatory at high ranks) while survivors have not only multiple second chance perks (Dh, Ds), but also perks that can cripple the killer's pressure by performing actions by themselves that would regularly require another survivor (Unbreakable, Deliverance) Survivors already have abilities in the form of items, should they really have insanely powerful perks?
Hell, the items themselves are problematic. I know they are looking into changing toolboxes, but I have a really high feeling it's just going to be something marginal like making the skill checks smaller. Almost every item works to make the killer's pressure less effective. Med-kits, Toolboxes, Flashlights, and The Survivor's version of moris, the ######### Keys.
I want this game to do well, there is no other cat and mouse game like Dead by Daylight. If I wanted to watch this game flop into irrelevancy, I wouldn't have typed all of this up. Give killers just a nudge, we have been needing that whole asymmetry deal lol.
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I just posted this for laughs and now I'm gonna read it (Or am I?)
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Please read uwu
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I'm a rank 1 killer and survivor, trapper main (re rank got me back to rank 13... WHAT?! I know right?! But the devs posted something about it being a bug so... meh...)
I have to agree and disagree in lots of parts.
I agree: There are certain maps that need reworks, as well as three specific killers, being Clown, Legion and Bubba. Pipping sistem actually made a lot of people change their mind in terms of "gens are too fast" cause now gens done early game does not affect your pipping or BP as long as you can get the 3k+ in the match, which actually makes sense, cause as killer, your objective is to kill.
I disagree: Items doesn't have to be changed, maps do, I've owned 4 men SWF with 4 toolboxes as trapper without a problem several times, the only way I had some trouble is if I went to Yamaoka or Rottenfields, but I'm not complaining, I love the challenge. The only item that could need a change for survivors is keys, maybe make them work only after 10 seconds of standing on top of hatch? And for killers the ebony should only work after ALL survivors have been hooked AT LEAST ONCE, this to avoid promoting tunneling, want to mori? Work for it without tunneling.
The thing I disagree the most is that for me, my perception, the most powerful perks for both sides are not specific ones, but the perks you need for your gamestyle. As an example, I do not use reading perks or perks that hel you in a chase with trapper, I use agitation, iron grasp, make your choice and CI, that's it.
Proposals: Create a luck based offering for killers to REALLY take away luck for survivors in order for them not to escape first try off a pig's trap or a trapper's one. Rework big maps. Bring in dedicated servers and DC penalties for Xbox too, but fix "crashed game" first for it not to cause a DC penaltie when it shouldn't. Ebony mori and keys rework (I already explained them). And that's it.
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Not agreeing with much here... Certain maps do need to be looked at BUT killer is easier now than it's ever been. I don't know what people want. Do you want survivors to spawn on the hooks? I'm red ranks and even with 4man swfI can reliably get at least 3k. Latest statistics released showed most killers getting about 70% kill rate (nurse was the outlier at around 40% iirc). Do you need 100% kill rate to be happy? Sometimes you just have to understand you got outplayed and move on...
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It sounds like you haven't read the post. I'd recommend reading what I actually said before commenting.
Post edited by DeathsCrimsonMaiden on2 -
I read the whole thing.
One thing I disagree on is the survivors perks. The survivors have 16 perks vs the killers 4. Pretty much every killer perk I can think of has a solid counter to it. Some survivor perks have zero counters to them. Majority of survivor perks also reward failure. Whereas killer gets punished for making mistakes.
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Edit the "it makes you look smarter" away dude, you don't wanna end up in jail like me, people are way too sensitive nowdays...
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Damn... Here I go... ban incoming... LMAO! JK
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I'm not going to lie - I'm not entirely sure what points you were trying to make. From my interpretation you were just saying killer is unfun mainly due to maps and survivor perks are over powered? I disagree. You want killers to have luck offerings to ensure killers get more kills? Devs have said killers are basically going over the desired 2k average they said they're aiming for. If I've missed something or misinterpreted than please clarify for me. Thanks.
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You missed the point entirely.
Apex has equal oppurtunity to outplay. This is something that Dbd currently lacks.
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Killers got used to a constant 4K. Killers still doing well according to their own statistics.
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I personally disagree. Unless you have a map like Ormond or Thompsons house, I always feel at some point I am able to outplay survivors. The problematic maps though do make it harder for killers. Hopefully they stick to reworking maps as opposed to buffing all killers and keeping maps the same. The maps can be horrific.
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Isn't that problematic that winning is based on luck?? Every Pvp game needs to have a chance for the better player to defeat their opponent.
You guys are pointing out the problems I was just talking about in an attempt to make a counter argument.
Irony.
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It is fine that every game is different, hell, that's what attracts alot of people to it. But rng is taken too far when it can dramatically effect whether someone wins or not.
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Not easy enough for the instant gratification plebs yet.
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I mean this from the bottom from my heart.
This is the cringiest thing I have ever seen on the forums ever.
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Ok... I'm guessing that you haven't been playing for too long. And as for Tru3 and Otz... Of course their videos are titled as negatively as possible. It's called clickbait.
Now, I've been a killer main since the game came out on Xbox, and I can tell you that it is a LOT easier for killers than it used to be. And here we are, with more complaining on forums.
Every complaint thread I see is ridiculous. I played 7 games as killer last night. 2 as Spirit, 2 as Huntress, 1 as Clown, 1 as Wraith, 1 as Trapper.
In EVERY game, I got a MINIMUM of 3k. And with both the Clown and Wraith, I got a 4k. And the Clown match was a 4 man swf.
I really, really wish that people would adapt to the game, instead of coming here and ranting. It's ridiculous. "Gens are too fast!"... Run a 3 gen strat. You don't need to protect all gens. Just protect the ones closest.
"The Ruin nerf made it too hard for killers."... I never relied on Ruin, therefore I learned how to stop rushes instead of relying on a totem to do it for me.
Basically, no matter what, you can always improve. But you'll never improve by crying for "fixes".
Sorry, but all these threads crying about how unbalanced everything is... Are obviously players that haven't been around for long. This game is WAY more balanced than it was when I started. Quit crying, and play the dang game. Maybe you'll get better.
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I assume the most people just like to have fun and there is a ton that really takes out the fun for killers.
I don't speak here from success.
I had a long time main a killer with the second lowest killrate (success) in dbd until they changed him. Now the killrate is better and kills are easier to made with him, but the fun...
The argument that killers had it harder in the past is imo not important, because the people still like to have fun and it is a valid argument since survivors have make it to one against killers (aka. then we can use it also).
I also think that it should give more things that are hard to counter, but that will never happen. Bhvr has not dbd turn down to a game where survivors only need to hold m1 and having second changes perks for everything, just to release then a killer that is hard to counter.
This part won't come back again, I bet.
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I do wanna let you know there IS another game like DbD. I'm fact, BHVR even helped them a little. Identity V. It's actually really good too. And very f2p friendly.
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i don't really understand the argument of RNG or whatever insisting the game doesn't need to be balanced. you guys do understand that the more the game caters to survivors and the less fun it gets playing killer the longer queues get and the worse matchmaking gets, right? if one role of the game is fundamentally unfun and stressful to play, people aren't gonna play it. especially if said role's play is totally at ends with the way the game is advertised - survivors totally control the flow of the game and dump on killers all the time.
streamers who invested thousands of hours and have every single perk unlocked do fine, but it's really rough out there for anyone who's just starting out. trying to level killers is a nightmare once you hit a certain rank threshold because i'm eventually put up against fully decked out red ranks, so i just won't play killer after a certain point.
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I really disagree that the maps need a lot of work. Certainly some minor adjustments would be fine, but consider that depending on RNG, any particular map may be better or worse for survivors and killers. That one map may favor killers, while another map favors survivors is not inherently a bad thing. The variety helps keep game to game a bit fresh. Generator speed and generators really being the only solid objective for survivors is where I'd say they could improve the game.
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I think the bottom line is playing killer is stressful it's actually pretty difficult and if you get a map with two jungles gyms next to cold wind cow walls it's gg. They'll just loop that thing for ######### ever. Same with ironworks window, same with any vault that breaks line of sight with a decent amount of space.
The maps need work. Across the board. Killers get 4 perks to the survivors 16 + they get instant heals, tonnes of uncounterable perks (Decisive + Unbreakable being the poster child, I guess, along with Object of Obsession) and unlike Survivors most of the killers' perks have drawbacks or can be easily countered. Enduring? Spirit Fury? just drop the pallet early ######### it. BBQ? Unless they have Iron Maiden just hop in a locker.
Couple that with the fact that most killers have no choice but to run in circles for ages (any m1 killer aside from nurse and spirit, maybe legion) and yeah. Killer feels terrible to play. A lot of walls are see through or obstacles at that perfect height that you couldn't hatchet over with huntress but can't use LOS mindgames either. It's a ######### show for both sides. Survivor is relaxed, boring, and generally speaking in the power role and have to make mistakes (or even go out of their way for chases because gens are done in the time it takes the killer to find them) and killer just spends the whole game sweating over whether or not it's been 40 seconds for another gen. (40 seconds being the time it takes to walk across coldwind and chase a survivor, fairly often)
The game is pretty stacked against killers that can't either cross the map fast (Billy, Oni, etc) or deny certain loops (Huntress, Spirit, Nurse)
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I honestly despise the common-thread argument of “it was much harder before” when people use it as an excuse for the imbalance of power. Just because it’s easier now doesn’t mean that it’s where it should be. Like some kind of disease, or an injury. Sure, it may get a bit better before it’s fully healed but that doesn’t mean it’s as good as it should be. And the recently released statistics had fatal flaws within them such as not being separated by individual ranks (rank 1 and rank 3 are VERY different when it comes to gameplay and optimization). So while there may be a 70% kill rate there’s no proof that it’s those top tier tricked out survivors with double digits of every item and addon running the killer with legacy outfits on, not a bunch of default Dwights getting yoinked from a locker and dying because they don’t know you have to keep pressing space to struggle (but not too fast!)
The other issue is a lack of consistency with killer strength, which makes the game feel very stale. You CAN play the harder, weaker killers and ride that high horse into town all day, but when it comes down to it the unholy trinity of top tiers will still be your most consistent/best bets. I don’t understand why the devs are so scared to buff Legion or the Clown or even Bubba while Nurse/Billy/Spirit exist and are just leaps and bounds ahead in terms of power. I mean, I kind of do. If all the killers were that strong, survivors would complain. Just like killers complain now. But they outnumber the killer 4-1.
The other massive issue is the difference between beating coordinated duos, trios, or 4 man parties and beating 4 solo queued survivors. The reason I argue against SWF all the time is that it puts an extreme imbalance in the game that can’t be made up for via in-game mechanics. In DBD information is king and people on voice comms will forever have more information than they rightfully should. Entire perks dedicated to thinks like seeing where teammates are (Bond, Empathy), whether or not the killer is near a hook (Kindred), or whether or not it’s safe to commit to a gen because the killer is being run around are completely invalidated when whoever you’re grouped with can just tell you these things. And in solo queue there’s no communication (note that this speaking for PC more than console considering console has party chat and it’s easier to invite people that way) so the game is many, MANY times harder. There really isn’t a fair or feasible way to negate this, unfortunately. It’s why I’ve personally stopped playing the game with friends at all, I don’t like how easy living as a survivor is when I’m playing with them.
I really can’t TL;DR this post so if you don’t read that’s fine. Sorry.
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Im gonna stop you right there. Because i noticed a few like completely arguement destroying contradictions in what you said that complete disproves itself. So im gonna start small and just suggest that if the game is THAT bad. Just leave. You mentioned having fun in lots of other games. Go play them its fine. But to go onto a public podium, lie and attempt to spread the lies. Thats just BS man, theres no reason to just lie and try and spread that. You seem to have some wild ego defending delusions your clinging to. Which again. Not my business dont care, now youre free to ask me to right a rival paragraph. But if you do. Im gonna really put a stopper in what you said.
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I just read everything on the main post and honestly I don't think it's the balance of the game its wrong, I've noticed over the years when I try out killer every once and a while that some people have second accounts after they hit rank 1. I noticed it when there was a twitch streamer and o was ready to log off ao I decided to watch and what I learned it was his 3rd account out of 5 trying to get to rank 1 with all of them. Also match making is a problem if I was a rank 20 killer facing 3 rank 10 survivors. Or me a rank 15 survivor face a rank 3 killer.
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Stopped reading after you mentioned Tru. He is a complainer and cries when we gets worked over by a good team or survivor.
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Could you please show me where he lies on this post ?
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I get what your saying. You just want to be able to play the game without Feeling like you already lost b4 going into match.
I feel that way as Killer at times.
You just have Killer PTSD
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"from the bottom of my heart"
"cringiest thing"
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You can totally compare a team based battle royale shooter and an asymmetrical horror game. Just not like that.
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Im a 3 gen trapper main (unnerving, overcharge op lmao) and I completely agree with you about the corn maps. It’s just that once my kingdom is set up, none of that really matters. If you’re feeling like you can’t do anything try to change your playstyle. Try something different or a new killer.
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Hey, no joke, anyone on here, who says killers are fine or, at the more ridiculous side of the spectrum, OP, you are seriously mental.
Like seriously, are we playing the same game? Safe pallets litter the majority of the map with maybe like two which are actually mind-gameable. Survivors have 16 perks at their teams disposal while the killer has to make-do with four (which is fine, if the survivor perks weren't so self-sustaining).
You know what, I'm not even going to continue, if people, who supposedly play the game, don't realize how powerless killers are, I don't know what to say.
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