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NOED has counter play, DS dosen't
I've been seeing a few posts about nerfing NOED (right after Ruin was just gutted), and it seems like more entitled survivors whining because the game still isn't easy enough for them. While its really DS that needs a nerf, as it has no counterplay and has very little skill required to activate. People say "just slug", but thats not counterplay, its mitigation. Instead of being able to get a hook and get the survivor down another state, it just leave them on the ground to be picked up in under 20 seconds by someone else. All it needs is to deactivate either after someone else is hooked or after they leave the killers terror radius. And then it will be an actual anti-tunnel perk and not just 60 seconds of immunity.
Comments
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You underplay slugging a lot in this post. Leaving them on the ground creates about as much pressure as hooking them. Someone still needs to come off a generator and go get them. Nobody said you had to leave the vicinity either.
Don't tunnel or alternatively do slug and you'll never see DS in play.
I've had way more games where DS wasn't even used than I do having it get used.
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What is the counter to NOED though if used by a camper? How do you counter the camping by “just doing gens” and also counter NOED by looking for and cleansing dull totems? Doesnt countering one eliminate the counter to the other?! Nothing wrong with arguing for some type of activation requirement for the killer to even get NOED to proc regardless if a dull is left. That’s not whining.
If DS deactivates upon hooking another survivor, then get rid of the timer altogether. Every killer is arguing that they’ve hooked someone else anyway and weren’t tunneling when they get hit with DS, so it shouldn’t be a problem if that’s really true.
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True, DS should be nerfed asap to the ground 😉
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Just pressure gens and other survivors while you are slugging.
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Slugging doesn’t counter DS. 3 other people can sit on gens while the survivor recovers, and then one can tap them and go back to business as usual. Unbreakable also kills slugging. DS wastes time either way.
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Then DS did its job.
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You can just eat the DS if you have to, it's pretty much same as getting hit with a pallet. Also if a survivor gets caught within 60 seconds of being unhooked, they maybe aren't as good of a looper so I'm sure you will catch them soon again (Unless they just happened to be on a dead zone).
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Entitled killer main trying to justify the a total desing failure by comparing it with a survivor perk namely DS which will never get a counter, cause its a "fix" for cheap killer gameplay.
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DS needs a rework so that the 5 seconds stun isn't eaten when a killer has hooked someone else in the meantime or other conditions are met, but NOED needs way more of a nerf, it's just a crutch perk that only bad players really need that causes the devs to be unsure on how well they should hide totems.
Having NOED nerfed to the level of a normal Hex perk would make it possible for BHVR to do focus on improving every single totem spawn and making sure that no bullshit cross-map visible totem is ever generated again.
That would automatically buff every single known Hex perk by making it so that you almost never see it cleansed before you even get a chance to reach it physically.
When it comes down to the recent Ruin rework, I believe it's better on some killers like Bubba but not gonna deny that a game slowing perk is needed, maybe even buffing Corrupt Intervention into something more solid would be enough.
Oh and before anyone says anything, I'm usually called a Killer main for most of my opinions even though I'm actually a 50%-50% player, so yeah just keep that in mind before you accuse me of being an "entitled survivor main".
NOED is just a blatantly crutch perk that any good killer player admits to be overpowered.
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Okay, but the problem is that “its job” is too strong. You reacted as if slugging was a counter, but it does nothing.
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I love how it's just "Oh eat the 5 second stun" like you have time to spare as killer. It's not just a 5 second stun, it's a stun, then another minute to chase them back down. Then do the same for the other 3 survivors.
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It is a counter. Slugging creates free pressure. You should be doing it regardless of DS.
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But apparently slugging is toxic/BM according to x amount of survivors.
Let me make another scenario for you.
The exit gates are powered. You have 2 people hooked. Someone with borrowed time unhooks both of them and opens the exit gate. You manage to down them again before they get to the door...but they both have DS.
Where's the counter play to that?
Oh wait...there isn't one. You got outplayed by a skillcheck.
DS needs to be fixed.
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Looks like you tunneled. Unfortunate.
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Well, I play both, more survivor, and NOED is fine.
It has a nerf. Do the ######### bones.
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There is counterplay to DS, but the counterplay is making the game more boring for everyone, and now that DC is penalized. You slug a person for DS just for them to go afk. Good for the killer - bad for the other survivors.
DS needs a nerf to make the game fun for both sides.
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Not it does not. Not real pressure anyway. Most of the time, at least in the current slugging meta, one wil be nearby to do the pickup as soon as you leave. Say ten seconds later and then they still have another 50 seconds of immunity.
Apart from that DS and unbreakable are common now. So if they dont get picked up they can pick themselves up.
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The exit gates were opened. What am I supposed to do? Sit there with my thumb up my ass?
There's no use discussing this with you. You have a clear bias, and are a troll. You don't want balance, you want easy games.
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Getting forced to eat a DS because of some BS just gives me a green light to tunnel that person into the ######### ground
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Well, it's easy to cleanse 5 totems for a full comms SWF which almost makes it useless for those, while it makes it something completely unfair to deal with for Solo/Duo players.
Considering the possibility of the perk being powereless and unused vs good SWF teams and that no real good killer player needs it and that it's likely to just come in action by giving away free kills that are really undeserved objectively, I really wish that it got nerfed for the sake of actual normal Hex perks.
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For a full comms SWF...or for someone who can count to 5.
Stop making excuses for being lazy or negligent. I play solo exclusively and I'm far from the best survivor. If I can do it, you can do it.
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If I can slug to counter DS, you can do it.
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Deerstalker and nurses works pretty well for me when I'm just slugging groups for the hell of it.
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See? That's how I know you have no argument.
I win. Git gud.
😎
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Get the person unhooking. Not the other one.
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Slugging keeps that person from doing anything to advance the survivors objective. If you slug the one and chase one. Then one person has to come pick up the slug. That leaves one person on gens. How is that doing nothing? True it's not as much pressure as a hook. But it hardly does nothing.
So you tunneled. Got hit with their perk to combat tunneling. And instead of reconsidering your strategy, you say ######### that guy. Tunnel harder. Did I miss anything?
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Nope, there's maps where the Level designing team has done a better job in hiding totems (and that's what they're supposed to do, but they are refrained from NOED to continue improving them) and spending the time to find those 5 totems, especially against good killers that know how to apply pressure rather than living up to one no-brainer perk, is just gonna kill you and potentially the entire team.
There's maps and perks to use to make finding totems consistently easy, and there shouldn't even be! Totems should be bloody hidden and hard to find! But here you are, defending a perk that is indeed unreliable, unneeded for good killers, and detrimental for every other Hex perk.
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It's definitely tunneling when I chase the guy doing a gen right in my face because of his DS immortality then hops in a locker. If I have to eat a DS because of something like that, I tunnel them for the rest of the match
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Really?
*looks at detectives hunch and rainbow map*
No? Really?
Again - don't be lazy.
You're complaining that they are hard to find, yet also complaining that you have tools to help you. You can't have it both ways. NOED is fine. Period.
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The only gripe I have with DS is that it's a near guarantees an escape if you down them near an open gate.
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At times, slugging is efficient. However, what is more efficient: leaving a survivor on the ground or eliminating them from the game? The answer is obvious.
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Slugging is decent, but tbh if they have decisive strike odds are they have unbreakable too. Besides that, it last so ridiculously long that you can chase and hook someone else and happen upon them and still get stunned despite obviously not tunneling.
It needs to be disabled once they interact with something other than themselves (in the case of self care, mend from borrowed time or legion, etc)
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You either have some comprehension issues which I'm gonna wish you not to have or just don't want to pay attention to what you're reading which is in all likeliness the case.
Just re-read the message you just quoted possibly without ignoring the parts you're unable to provide a counterargument to and try to open up your mind.
If you're upset that the perk can be easily countered then you don't think it's fine, it means you wish it had better strengths which we're all here for, we just want it to have a different and better potential that doesn't impact the game as lamely as it's always done.
I would also like to hear you mention something about Totem spawns because you are really borderline ignoring that part which is just childish to be honest.
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nice bait. :)
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Slugging does counter DS, you are trying to counter the stun right? You got 60 seconds or less of you didn’t actually go back to the hook.
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Slugging, as you said, uses 60 seconds. If two people are on a gen, it’s finished. If even one person is on a gen, that’s a ton of progress. What makes this even even crazier is that if even one person runs it, you must respect it for everyone.DS is the best perk in the game.
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Both perks have counterplays.
NOED: stop repairing generators and go to find all 5 dull totems, because killer MAY have NOED
DS: do not hook a survivior you have caught doing a gen 5 meters from you, instead slug him for 60 seconds because survivior MAY have DS. Alternatively, you can tunnel them on purpose to get DSed early. If they dont have DS, then too bad, they got tunneled.
So yes, BOTH PERKS SUCK AND NEED TO BE CHANGED
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Or something that killers do is eat it to get it over with. That's what I do as killer but I dont play killer seriously though so I cant say much
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I hate how much I have to defend survivor aspects on these forums. There are a ton of legit issues that we face that I'd love to hammer on, but these dumb posts about DS and NOED are too much.
- NOED has a counter - But, I think a survivor perk with a totem counter would solve a lot of the issue for solo players.
- DS has a counter - Either avoid tunneling, or down them and move on to the unhooker - that way you have 2 off the gens and a 3rd that comes to pick up the downed victim. 3 Off of gens is a really nice thing, and much better than a simple tunnel with one off the gens. - But, I would like to see DS deactivate once a survivor jumps into a locker and reactivate once they fully leave. The locker DS thing is plain dumb.
If you don't see the counter to DS, you are likely not a very good killer and fully rely on tunneling your victim down in order to win. Try to get better.
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It needs way more than that to truly help tunneling. All of these changes people request to DS are about improving it for The Killer then it is about remedying the problem it is intended to address.
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But gens being done doesn't mean you aren't countering DS.
Also, those are big "ifs".... I could also point out that if the team is too altruistic they will most likely go for the heal first.
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Well that's the counter to it. Either eat the stun or slug. Same with the noed, destroy the totems or die. And like I have said before, how often do you lose the whole game only because all survivors used ds at the right time/how often do you lose your whole team to noed. Not very often. Both of these perks makes the game "not so simpe" and you have to play around them.
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This is flawed logic. That would be like saying that to “counter” old Ruin, just don’t do gens and find the totem; the killer wanted survivors to waste time, so Ruin did its job. DS still does its job (for everyone) if you get slugged.
While I did have some “ifs”, optima survivors will take advantage of the slug. Potatos will lose anyways.
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Do the survivors really think slugging is toxic? Slugging has counters as well. The only time most think it's toxic is if you slug all 4 and leave them to bleed out,which wastes everyone's time if no one has a counter. I mean if one person is down,and ones acting a troll right next to them,I'd probably smack them too lol. I'm not a red,so I don't see DS as often as NOED. It might cost you a 4k,but I don't really see what would be a fair solution.
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In this scenario how can you allow one survivor to unhook two people and also open the exit gate though, that sounds like a bad play on killers behalf
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When people speak about "countering" DS, they mean the stun. Not the possible scenarios to be avoided or objectives to be prevented from getting done.
Counter to old Ruin was hit the great skillcheck.
I don't see the 'flawed logic' just because it indirectly impacts other objectives.
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The perk massively affects the game, regardless of whether the slug is picked up or not. Even if the killer waits out the timer, the survivor bought time for the team and ultimately allows that same downed survivor a better chance at escaping. Your perspective is too narrow: getting stunned is not what makes DS effective (by itself).
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When I decide I want to take the stun, they might last like an extra 10 seconds if they are even in a good position. A lot of how it impacts the game after the stun depends on that. Which in essence you can blame RNG.
It's just as unlucky as a killer with Spirit Fury, if they are already caught up to you, there is no way you are going to avoid the hit through the pallet + if you're in a bad area, you're going down anyway.
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I was going by the survivor rule book. "Don't camp".
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
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Same. It's 5 seconds. Take the stun, and move on. Odds are pretty good that you'll find them again during the match..
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