Noed, and how even this is a solo vs swf issue
[Let me preface this by saying that whenever I mention swf, I mean the ones who use comms. Edited title to make it more clear.]
Since everyone is discussing this perk, I'd like to give my 2 cents on it, and see what other people think.
Now, NOED is, without a doubt, my least favourite perk in the game. Do I get salty when I see it? No, but I still don't like it. I personally believe that it rewards those who have played badly and not had enough pressure onto gens (I know that with many killers, this is really difficult to do, but when I see a freddy running noed, pop, and teleport add ons, like really?). Also imo it's really unfun to use and to face. As survivor I hate to see it, and as killer I hate to use it.
I speak from the point of view of someone who once never refused to take it off.
And because of this experience, I believe that it is a crutch perk, because killers rely on it. I know I sure did, and you can tell by the way someone plays that they have noed, because often they're bad in chases, don't know how to pressure, and rely on the endgame.
So what's my main issue with it?
It all boils down to the solo vs swf issue, surprisingly.
When I play as a solo survivor (which is about 60-70% of the time I play a survivor), I don't have the time to do totems in most cases, because my teammates are absolutely pepega and it's up to me to do gens. Naturally if I see a totem I'll get rid of it - gotta get that inner strength activated - but there just doesn't seem to be enough time to get saves, do gens, get chased (or hide), and cleanse totems. Not to mention not knowing how many totems have been cleansed; I only have so many maps I can use on my survivors, especially iif I use my bloodpoints on my killers. It's only when I play solo noed is ever really a problem.
However when I'm playing with some buddies - even if it's just one - then I know that at least ONE person on my team can do gens. I can, therefore, take my time and do totems, get chased, and get saved. Gens become a significantly lower priority issue because I know somebody else is on them. Also, I know which totems have been cleansed, how many there were, and their general location (example, if someone says "Totem inside killer shack done" I know to not look by shack). I don't need to use small game, or detectives hunch, or a map; I have information right there.
(My usual build consists of Quick and Quiet, Head On, Decisive Strike, and Inner Strength. However, DS is often be substituted out for Detective's Hunch anyway).
Again the issue is the massive power split between solo survivors and swf.
So how can this be changed? Well, the only real way to fix this is to bridge the gap between solo and swf. A totem counter seems like a great idea; maybe have it on small game like TOTH? Showing the aura of destroyed dull totems briefly to all survivors would be an AMAZING QOL buff to solos, not helping swf that much. As payback, killers can see the auras of their dull totems still on the map, supplying more info into survivor locations and allowing them to defend it more for their TOTH or NOED. Seems like a fair buff to both sides to me.
Now, obviously there are other ways, but these are just two that I thought of.
Feel free to discuss this in the comments, but please be civil.
TL;DR: noed is an issue which is only actually an issue due to the power disparity of solo survivors and swf, and the only way to stop survivors being annoyed is to allow solos more info, and change how totems work for killers accordingly).
[Apologies for formatting, I'm writing this on my phone.]
Comments
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As you say it’s only used by bad players. The wirse a killer is the more convinced you become that they have NOED because NOED means that they’ve never had to learn how to play the game.
It stomps solo and is useless against a 4 man swf which is ridiculous because you’d want the oerk more for the 4 man groups co-ordinating genrush and all getting that adrenaline instaheal. These killers don’t care though because they dc or lobby dodge vs swf anyway and continue to stomp solos with NOED.
I think they’re shooting themselves in the foot. I think NOED is inflating the kill rate and denying certain killers buffs.
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If they'd just add a bloody totem counter, solo survivor would be so much easier in regards to perks like NOED. Wish the devs would have stayed true to their word about buffing solo players.
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You could just go through the exit gates...
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I could leave, except when I can't because my teammates are slugged, gate rng ######### us, and the killer is there guarding it with noed up.
Like i said, I personally absolutely despise the perk, and I've laid out my reasons why. When I play solo it gets me because I have to jocky the majority of gens, and when I play swf I know I can rely on someone so totems actually get sorted. The perk doesn't reward vs swf, only solos. And that's my personal largest issue overall.
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I had a facecamping leatherface the last time who used NOED. We rushes the gens and we could do nearly all gens in the time which our mate dying on hook.
Than he found me and I managed to loop him for the last gen but in the end his NOED killed me and another mate.
So here is our facecamping leatherface with NOED. 3K, it feels really unsatisfied.
I think, it is hard to balance that. I don't really think NOED needs a big change, because totem cleansing is a good second objective but at this time I realised a problem with NOED and facecamping.
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This is what we’re arguing. Survivors won’t be able to do all gens and totems in that time.
Maybe NOED would be better token based. For each survivor hooked you gain a token. For each token you gain 15-20 seconds of instadowns once the final gen is powered up to a maximum of 60-80 seconds. Max of 4 tokens. NOED wouldn’t have a direct counter then but at least it wouldn’t benefit campers. Also survivors could wait it out if they’re screwed by rng of gates or a hard totem spawn like in the indoor maps.
Or maybe if people want the totems being done it doesn’t give instadowns but just stops the gates from being opened until all totems are cleansed. Gates can’t be opened until all 5 totems are cleansed. Or once the final gen pops an unlit totem on the map lights up and the gates cant be opened until it’s cleansed. Doesn’t activate when hatch is closed.
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here you go mate
e
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You think NoED “rewards” bad play? Due to pressure on gens? You really believe that? I’ve had games where I’ve stopped Survivors from completing a single gen and hooked all of them once. They then proceed to knock out every gen, spread out while I might have only got 2 more hooks. That means, 2 on death hook, 2 on 2nd hook. I can kill those 2 on death hook during gen repair and, by your definition, they complete the generators and this is bad play so I don’t deserve my perk I waited all game for? 😂 I, personally, do not use NoED but that’s ludicrous fellow player.
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Yes run a ton of garbage perks and items every game to counter ONE perk that might not even be in play? Makes a ton of sense.
NOED has got to be the biggest crutch that still exists in this game; outside of some of the downright broken add-ons, mori's, and spirit fury.
Keys? People have to be dead before you can even start using them. It's realistically only going to be a SWF that gets 3 men out at 1 gen left, and they still had to 4 gens and someone had to die.
Adrenaline only rewards you if you win, and even then it's only really going to be useful if you are actively being chased. So the overwhelming majority of the time, it's only going to be useful on a single player. Everyone else gets...a speed boost to the exit gate.
Meanwhile, you can get NOED every single game you lose. And it practically guarantees you can facecamp out a kill or two.
OP killers like Freddy / Spirit don't need 4 perks to 3-4k every game. But you can slap NOED on them and just collect your free kills on the offchance you fall asleep at the keyboard and the survivors actually make it to the endgame.
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In other words, you want a free pass. Games already go by way too fast and I’m guessing jags what you base the “survivors won’t be able to all gens and totems in that time” DESPITE someone being camped. Hmm OK.
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never did I say you had to run all of them so please dont put words in my mouth, plus detectives hunch shows you traps , and where chest are. instead of running the 4 meta perks try something new .
you could also learn how and where totems spawn. they usually dont spawn on the same tiles
Also going back to your point about it being a crutch perk, couldnt the same be said about DS, unbreakable, and maybe even DH?
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Also you're forgetting that you as a survivor has control over whether or not noed works. stop pumping out gens and take a minute to do bones. you even get points for it.
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You literally have to be running BT and DS in solo Q if you want a good chance to win at the high ranks. All the sweaty killers are going to tunnel and camp when the games go south, and those are literally the only answer to it.
Otherwise, you can just watch your team die off after they get camped from 2nd hook to dead and there will be nothing you can do about it.
DS is the only thing that might save you from the basement, or getting farmed by your team, or just getting tunneled straight off the hook.
I feel compelled to run iron will as well, otherwise you are literally a free down to any competent spirit; and there's a ton of those at red ranks.
So that's 3 perks gone already. I like having an exhaustion perk so there's no room for crap like detectives hunch.
Maybe you can do left behind key and not care if everyone dies, but I don't like doing that often.
Chests I find worthless, if I want an item in a match I will bring it. Traps? I don't see trapper at high ranks ever.
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There is no time to go find and do bones on many of the maps. Especially preschool, lery's, and Hawkins etc where they are extremely well hidden and you would need dedicated totem finding perks or a map.
There is no way to ensure, as a solo Q, all 5 totems have been done. You would waste probably 2-3 gens worth of time finding them all, for ONE perk that may or may not exist.
Then you hit a red rank billy / spirit / nurse etc who are probably downing people in 30-40 seconds tops unless your team is filled with gods. The good thing in that situation, is that those players are good enough it is extremely unlikely they will be crutching on NOED.
How can you think that is fine for a stock perk to be that powerful?
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Agreed. DS and BT are mandatory perks. If you play any amount of time in survivor you realise this.
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really? because I'm a rank 1 (well not rn because of the wack rank reset) and I only run BT. and what do you know , I rarely have a tunneling problem. you're obviously either a troll or extremely bias so I'm not going to try and argue with you. have a good day.
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there is plenty of time , trust me. do totems on your way to gens and after you finish one. and going off your point about not knowing how many are left, RUN A MAP OR DETECTIVES if NOED is that big of an issue for you then maybe you should.
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No perk at all is mandatory as survivor.
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It's not an issue at all at high ranks, because the good killers hardly use it. But the fact you would condemn your team to death because you are doing dull totems instead of gens when the killer has pop goes instead of NOED is the problem with it.
They are for solo Q. You can get away with perkless if your team is really good. But more often than not? They are going to make mistakes, and a really good killer will punish them with death unless you have the 2nd chance perks to make up for it. And their death is also your death unless you have a key.
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Like i said in my opening post, I use detectives hunch frequently in place of ds. Like I said, I use maps when I can, but I only have a limited amount, and when spreading bloodpoints across both sides, I run out of them fast.
I've literally also addressed this. I don't have time to NOT pump out gens solo, because teammates are ass, farm off of hook, waste all resources and STILL die in 3 seconds, whilst blendette is off on the corner cowering in fear, and the obligatory rank 20 Dwight is in the basement lockers. Yet I still try and do totems to get iner strength procs.
In swf, I do gens but significantly less so, and I do totems because I know other people do gens.
Did you even READ my post, mate? The entire point of this post is that noed makes solo hell whilst swf still have easy counters, and that if solo wasn't hell because of it, then people wouldn't complain about noed? Like, come on, please take off your "I SEE A NOED COMPLAINT SO THEREFORE SURVIVOR MAIN" glasses and read, I beg of you.
EDIT: here is my proof ive said that. The large wall of text that is 80% of my post. Have fun.
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It absolutely punishes SWF. Especially when they're doing gens super fast, and trying to be overly altruistic or trolling late game. They fall apart.
If you play solo, run detectives hunch. It lights up totems. If you dont see any, then go to the next area. It literally shows you if they exist or not.
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DS is not mandatory lol.
The times I've run it, they just leave me on the ground and chase the unhooker.
If you go for safe saves and dont rush or unhook while they can still see you, it's almost a non issue.
BT is the same. It's only useful for stupid risky unhooks, or EGC unhooks when theyve resorted to camping. And that's like 5-10% of the game if that.
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Again, may I direct you to the part of my opening where it states that I swap out ds and detectives hunch frequently?
Whilst it might make genrushing swfs fall apart, I personally don't know anyone who plays like that and so can't comment from my own experience. And as killer since I don't run it anymore, and my experience as using it as a crutch was a solid pre-rework freddy time, I can't comment on that either.
But I speak all from experience, and even if swfs are impacted, solos suffer so much more.
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So your problem isn’t really NoEd or cleansing Hex Totems. Your problem is bad teammates. You should be asking the devs to improve matchmaking and ranking so you get paired up with players of the same skill as you, not for nerfing a Killer perk.
Go make multiple threads asking survivors to basically “git gud” as many of them like to put it.
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I read your novel.
And I also, speak from experience. Noed punishes me more when I'm with friends than solo.
Because as solo I make sure to run around and look for totems.
Solos are only affected more by NOED when they play like they're not solo. If you assume and expect the other 3 to "work as a team" you're going to be disappointed. I've had maybe 3 survivors from random games, that I actually commended for being helpful. Out of their way team players. The rest are usually selfish, and you have to play around that.
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Wish we played the same games. In the games I get the killer more often than not refuses to step too far from the hook. BT is the best way to get unhooks, if you dont take it in some games then you don't get safe unhooks.
Also DS, it's your only chance because 90% of killers try to tunnel off hook.
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I think you'll actually find I proposed survivor buffs instead of noed nerfs? And even a killer buff to compensate? I'm perfectly fine with noed having the counterplay of do the totems, but like you said it is the issue of teammates not doing literally anything all game.
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So in most of your games they camp, why not do gens and leave? Punish the camper, dont try to fit in a forced BT just to have two people injured/downed and no work done.
If its EGC my point stands...
Also if a killer tunnels you off of hook, you were UNHOOKED TOO CLOSE. DS isnt needed, if your team plays smart, or its EGC and again, I've stated points about that being it's only REAL use.
If they're gonna tunnel you, they're going to tunnel you even after DS.
These two are only "mandatory" for the rush in and unhook in front of them style, or for the few EGC canp scenarios. But if you want to waste 2 slots for that, because people are impatient, you do you.
However.
You CAN wait to unhook someone....
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Clearly we have different experiences then, and I'm gonna propose we agree to disagree on this one.
About solo survivors expecting other solos to work as a team, honestly I'm fine with them not, just do long as they do something in the game. It doesn't have to be teamwork, but instead should be productive.
Like you said, they're selfish. They'll sandbag, farm, and hatch camp, won't do the objective, and so you have to instead, which like I've said leaves little to no time to search for and cleanse all 5 totems, especially considering that the killer will also be looking for you.
Overall, its a fault mostly in the totem system.
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so your problem shouldnt be with NOED. but with randoms. at least that's what it sounds like , what with you putting all the blame on your random teammates .
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what rank are you? I've asked you this in the past and you've never answered me .
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*Sees NOED discussion about it being crutch*
Just want to say again that demogorgon has actual use for it to boost his endgame to unfathomable levels, instead of a gimmick perk.
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Glad we established that.
I feel like I should clarify, I'm hardly perfect. I make a ton of mistakes, and it's not like I'm gonna be play like a god all the time. Infact, I'd classify myself as a pretty below-average survivor who can chill at high purple to red ranks each season.
But like, come on, many solo survivors can agree that random teammates 9/10 are awful, especially with the matchmaking being flawed beyond belief right now.
And personally, noed to me is just one of my gripes, if you want to use it go ahead, I can't dictate the way you play. However, it is an example of a much larger issue.
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I did say that, in my opinion, it was a crutch, from my own experience of it being a crutch. To some killers they may stick it on once in a while, and then clearly its not a crutch.
But my main point here is that the noed situation is an example of a larger situation. The massive power gap between solo and swf.
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There is literally no need to buff either side, doing so would probably just make the game worse. Best to wait and see how the new ranking and matchmaking works out before they implement any buffs to either side.
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oh 100% I only play solo since none of my friends have this game and it's crazy how many times I've been hooked and seen my teammates urban evading around the map or self-caring in a corner .
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Exactly, it's stupid and honestly is awful, I hate it.
And it's always these types of players who complain noed is op.
Honestly I just wish bhvr would give solo q some love and give us things like the totem counter.
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A totem counter is something really small but something that can also make a difference in solo q. Idk why they havent added it into the game tbh
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Exactly, its such a small qol change but it'd help this game out so much.
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It is a newbie perk. That is undeniable to anyone who plays survivor. Good killers simply dont run it and if they do its because they are memeing. For instance I had a nurse who didn't move the entire game until all gens were finished to try and slug everyone with noed. That's an obvious meme. She failed but I dont think she was a bad killer. But 95% of the time it's an obvious crutch perk for low rank killers who as op stated are really bad at chases.
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well we can also look at it the other way noed punishes survivors for not doing totems #justdothebones
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Survivor main here, to be clear... But I do play Killer. NOED, just like any strong perk, can be abused. You can't slam the Killer for "never having to learn how to play" and not your teammates who aren't doing totems. I do every totem I see...I know "how to play".
When I play as Killer, I rarely use NOED... but if I do, it is usually less of a "crutch" and more of "insurance." Insurance to help me complete a particular challenge. Insurance to protect me from depipping and/or deranking after one or two matches against a gen-rushing, flashlight-clicking, pallet/window looping, exit/hatch teabgging, toxic SWF group with comms, who....despite my constant efforts to pressure gens.... Give me no time to leave the area after hooking a survivor by immediately unhooking them, so I chase the uninjured one so as to not be accused of "tunneling", but the injured Survivor pops up and takes the hit for them and they get away... Why? Bc they have DS on, of course! Then when they complete the last gen, they open the gates 90% then scatter and instead of escaping. NOED would cause this same SWF group to crumble apart at the end, thus rewarding the Killer for being patient and a good sport against even the most toxic of SWF groups.
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The killers' only meta perk shouldn't be changed. Well... meta for SOME people.
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Honestly? Bbq, PGTW, Enduring, are arguably meta perks for killers. They're perfectly fine.
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Give killers 8 perks then they can try other stuff safely
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This wasn't a nerf noed post, but good try.
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NOED does not need to be token based. There does not need to be another killer nerf. The last thing we need is survivors whining about not enough time to do totems. Give me a break...
Are you trolling or do you actually believe what you post?
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PGTW has only little effect. There are matches where you can barely get some hooks so BBQ is not always helpful. It's just a bloodpoint farming perk. Discordance is better imo. And Enduring is only good for killers who have no mobility like the clown, wraith, pig. And even then you have to use Spirit Fury to make Enduring useful.
So no.
While survivors have all the second chance perks, Sprint Burst and Oject, which ARE meta, Killers only have NOED now.
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Imagine thinking Spirit Fury is a crutch perk lmao. Just drop the pallet early, dont be greedy with your loops
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Used by "bad players"
Yeah sure, I just have a perfect example where that isn't the case.
I played doctor with Green Obedience add on, and Purple Restraint add on, and I was on the Sanctum of Wrath Map (One of the massive Survivor-side maps).
After hooking 1 survivor, 1st gen popped in the first 50 seconds
After hook 4 more survivors, 2 gens popped.
After hooking 2 survivors, 1 gen popped
After killing 1 survivor, the last gen popped.
The gens were finished in 5 to 6 minutes, and each chase ranged from 30 sec to 50 sec. And 1 survivor was death hook while the other two survivors need another hook before death hook.
NOED did give me the ability to punish the fact they did no totems what so ever. The only way I was able to 4k the survivors with NOED, was because the survivors were too altruistic.
This match is the perfect example of where no matter how fast I downed the survivors, gens kept getting pumped out. NOED just punished the survivors not doing totems, and basically rushing the gens.
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