I'm actually fine with new sabotage (discussion thread)
I've seen a lot of posts about how the new sabotage is broken so I'm making this post to argue for the other side and to encourage an balanced discussion.
A lot of people have been posting the Monto video as prove that sabo is broken, but that was only two games out of many they played. I saw a puppers video where they all got killed doing the same thing at 3 gens so you can't just point to their two best games and claim it's broken, the same way I can't point to that one game and say that it's useless.
Now that sabo has been changed they are new ways to counter it. It's important to note that broken hooks only last for 30 seconds. If a survivor is using No Mither it takes them 32 seconds to heal, so it's possible to leave a survivor on the ground, then pick them back up before they can heal themselves.
Another counter would be to pick up a survivor just before the hook repairs themselves. If you pick up a survivor 20 seconds after a hook has been broken, you still have enough time to wait for the hook to repair itself and be able to hook the survivor and prevent survivors from saboing in your face.
It's also important to note that there are hooks everywhere! If you tried to sabo before you know how many hooks there are. I have had instances where I could hook 4 survivors on different hooks that were slugged on the same spot. If you see someone running towards a hook, take a detour to another hook close to you. Survivors are only 8% faster at base speed so if they're behind you they're not going to make it to the hook and sabo it. The new Hangman's Trick can also help with this to see which hooks are safe (it's actually pretty good now!)
I have listed three counters there. If you are going to comment I would like if you could list a counter that I haven't thought of. I understand that people have reasonable critiques like survivors being able to sabo during your attack cool down, but I hate when people point to one piece of evidence and then ask for nerfs without discussing the strengths and weaknesses of the topic. Let us start a balanced discussion on the topic.
Comments
-
The new sabo forces the killer to play super sweaty games where they have to count seconds in their head and constantly stay on their toes against 4 giggling idiots on headsets. That is the ultimate problem and why there are a lack of people playing killer in this game. It's not about whether there are counters or not.
7 -
I just think there already was decent save potential with flashlights and body blocks. Hook saves were really rare for me as a killer but now it seems they're going to become more common.
I already know there are counters to it but why add another thing I have to play around. I'm already playing around DS, unbreakable, flashlight saves whilst also managing gens.
But I will say hangman is looking like a very strong information perk as well as a counter to hook sabo so if that doesn't get nerfed then I think it could be alright.
Again still PTB so don't know how it'll all turn out.
0 -
Killers simply can't be that great at keeping track of time, multiple hooks can have variable time (sabotaged in different times) multiple Survivors can have their own DS times.
All while the other side can have voice chat so the work of keeping track of time could be distributed and shared throughout the match.
If one side is balanced towards low skill level, why the other has to be balanced towards high skill level ? Either find a middle ground or change one way to fit the other, preferably all high skill level, but that's just my opinion.
1 -
What do you think about mad grit+agitation as a counter?
0 -
That is part of my meme build, and there is a reason I call it a meme build. :P
My issue is when a Killer manages to reach the hook in time, hit the sabotaging Survivor, but before the Killer can recover and hit them again, the hook gets broken. I don't see why a Survivor that can't sabotage a hook before the Killer successfully attacks them should be allowed to finish the sabotage.
0 -
its yet another thing thats very weak on solo and incredibly strong on SWF.
but imo the sabo speed is too fast. the killer needs to have a way to counterplay this! like, currently its just them running up to a hook and saboing it in like 2 seconds... there is nothing you can do as killer.
slug?
yeah its not like we had tons of anti slug perks for survivors...
honestly, just watch the new Monto video where he played with a 4 man SWF sabo squad. like, i highly doubt the killers had any fun that match...
also dropping a survivor off your shoulder increases their wiggle meter by 33%, so by the time you reach the hook and it gets saboed, there is a possibility that you cant even drop them / when you drop them you wont be able to get them to a new hook (as they'll crawl as far away from hooks as possible ofc).
its just stupidly strong on SWF and extremely bad on solo.
they need to find some middle grounds imo.
0 -
It has no counterplay since it's possible to just sabo the hook during killer pick up animation. You can't hook a survivor if you don't have hooks, which is one of your primary objectives. On azarov's resting place for example there is usually only 1 hook in a middle of a map. They also did a massive nerf to killer by increasing hook distance recently. I can see now why they did it early. Perks like breakout will make it even worse. It's also a huge nerf to perks like pgtw.
0 -
All I’m gonna say is watch Montos video with his friends all using sabo and no mither. Then be prepared for ALOT of games like that happening with these updates 🙄
0 -
I do think it's a great counter and very fun to boot. However I do understand that not all killers want to feel like they have to run these perks so I would only classify it as a soft counter.
0 -
I agree with that part also. If you fail to sabo a hook before the killer hits you you shouldn't be able to sabo it during the attack cool down.
Also, does anyone know how long a successful attack cool down is? I tried to look it up but I couldn't find anything.
0 -
I think for the first week this goes live I will use it, maybe even throw on stbfl.
0 -
Sorry if I'm just forgetting something, but which patch did they increase the hook distance? I've read all the patch notes when they came out and I don't remember reading about increased hook distance.
0 -
You do raise a good point but I think they are some key differences between DS and hooks. First sabo is shorter obviously, so it's easier to keep track of then DS. Second is that wiggling takes 16 seconds at base, so if you miscount your broken hook you have a bit of wiggle room (pun intended). If you miscount DS by even a second though you face a much heavier punishment.
You are right that it might be difficult for a killer to keep track. It might be too stressful for lower ranked killers who don't have much in way of game sense.
0 -
Doctor update
0 -
I'm sorry, do we play the same game?
"massive nerf by increasing hook distance". Yeah, so you'd say if I can shake hands with my neighbor while we both are on a hook this is a big distance?
Really, besides The Game and maybe that one hook in the middle on Azaraov's, the hooks are so ridiculously close together.
Furthermore the new sabo is only strong on full 4 men groups with most of them No Mither equipped. Try to run Monto's sabo build on solo queue and I bet you will have a hard time to bring that into play.
0 -
I've just looked and the only mention was that the hook distribution on Lery's was changed, which was good because the old version had so many hooks and the new version has a good distribution of hooks.
No other map was changed, so to say that the change was a massive nerf to killers is a bit of an overstatement.
0 -
The monto video is an extreme example. Playing the ptb and taking in or finding a toolbox on map has allowed me to deny a decent amount of killers a hook that they wasted 1 or 2 gens on. I never bothered with sabo before because it required set up and wasted time. This requires very little set up and wastes practically no time.
0 -
Hook times are in theory easier to keep track because of lower times and this "wiggle room" (great pun) but it has multiple things happening on the same time, you have possibly more than 2 hooks being sabotaged at different times (when one of them are resetting others could be starting to recover) you still have other Survivors trying to distract you, you could be timing the No Mither guy recover bar (32 seconds by default) and many other things. My complain itself isn't how difficult it is to play around it more than the difference between Survivor work and Killer work.
0 -
Give them a few weeks to perfect their game. This could be really nasty.
Unless you use clocks, which i dont, how are you goign to keep track of every persons wiggle timer,? Or timer on the hooks? Or unbreakable proc? Across 4 people. Not just one. This is insane on so many levels. 2.5 seconds to sabo a hook. The more i saw thsi the more ridiculous it even is.
We have perks that shut off gens, their objective. For 16 seconds. They could shut out hooks off almost the whole game.
0 -
Im fine with it as well, people overreact and love drama
0 -
This is OP after this post
0
