PTB Hangman's Trick gonna change or is it gonna stay the same?
I hear people say it's not gonna stay the way it is in the ptb, I personally like it and think it would be another viable perk for killers to use. If they are gonna change it I hope they don't take off the aura reading completely.
Best Answer
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The only thing I've seen them say is that they are keeping an eye on it.
I personally like it a lot and hope it stays. It's better than BBQ but BBQ gives the bloodpoint bonus so I still think we'd see both if it stayed.
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They better not do something to it j really like it and it's not op
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It's a killer perk. It will be nerfed.
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what does it do? i cant find what it does anywhere
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I really hope they dont nerf something that would change up the meta..
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From the developer update.
Hangman’s Trick:
- Gain a notification when a hook sabotage starts.
- While carrying a Survivor, see the auras of any Survivors within a set range of a hook.
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Gives a notification when someone is saboing a hook and it lets you see auras of other survivors near any hook on the map.
Only when you are holding a survivor do you get these effects.
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oh, thats it? i doubt itd be nerfed, it doesnt really sound all that good imo. could be wrong though
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It's because of the sabo change.
To make sabotaging more interesting and accessible, we have made the following changes:
- Sabotaging now takes only a few seconds, but progress resets if you cancel the interaction.
- The number of hooks that can be sabotaged with a single toolbox is very limited.
- Sabotaged hooks respawn much faster.
- Hooks can now be sabotaged from any angle.
- Bear Traps can no longer be sabotaged.
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Any hook? And what's the range?
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Any hook. 16m of them.
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Any hook will act as a 16m radar, map wide.
I don't think its balanced and I hope its set to apply on any hooks in a 50m range so its still the same but has a smaller range to possibly supplement bbq which has the 40m limit.
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And the minimum spawn distance between hooks is 20 metres, I believe... so that's basically map-wide aura reading as long as you're carrying a survivor. That's pretty powerful, I can understand why people might feel like it's too much.
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I can see why they would feel that way.
Keep in mind though, it requires you to down someone to get any value in the first place. Then it also requires you to pick them up, so it discourages you from slugging. This means you also are having to give up map pressure (slugging) to get its value as well. Also, just like BBQ the survivors can simply jump in a locker when someone goes down and avoid it entirely if they aren't able to simply walk away from any hooks.
Not saying it isn't very strong, it is. I just think people might be underselling its cost. It's better than BBQ but BBQ also has a blood point bonus attached with it as well. Even if Hangmans remained this way coming out of PTB I still think you'd see people running both because of their differences.
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Oh yeah, I definitely don't think it's about to replace BBQ, but it is better. Perhaps not overpoweringly so, but it's a close call.
It's nice that the new HT discourages slugging. I think that's good perk design, to introduce mechanics that reward "fun" gameplay rather than punishing people for employing unfun but effective tactics like slugging. I'd be very hesitant to refer to hooking survivors as giving up pressure, though. Hooking and slugging are just different ways of applying pressure, and the former is usually better, except under particular circumstances.
HT may be counterable in the same way as BBQ, but it's worth noting that the counter is more difficult to pull off. With BBQ, you have about 3-10 seconds to find and get into a locker while the killer travels to the hook, but with HT you only have the time in between when the survivor goes down and when they get picked up if you want to avoid its effects completely.
I guess we'll have to wait a bit and see what people do with it. Best not to nerf things straight out of the gate, but HT may or may not end up needing it in the long run.
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"It's nice that the new HT discourages slugging. I think that's good perk design, to introduce mechanics that reward "fun" gameplay rather than punishing people for employing unfun but effective tactics like slugging."
Agree completely.
"I'd be very hesitant to refer to hooking survivors as giving up pressure, though. Hooking and slugging are just different ways of applying pressure, and the former is usually better, except under particular circumstances."
While I agree that hooking is still applying pressure, they are quite different. You can apply pressure enough to win through slugging. You are not applying enough pressure through hooking alone to win against good survivors. You would need too many hooks with not enough time. In the current meta you win through snowballing, not hooking people one at a time. We're more just disagreeing on my verbiage though than the actual premise I suppose. I was meaning to speak more in generalities than specifically.
"HT may be counterable in the same way as BBQ, but it's worth noting that the counter is more difficult to pull off. With BBQ, you have about 3-10 seconds to find and get into a locker while the killer travels to the hook, but with HT you only have the time in between when the survivor goes down and when they get picked up if you want to avoid its effects completely."
That is true. I'm not sure if I think it's enough to make the perk overbearing though.
As you mentioned earlier I do very much like the perks design of encouraging "fun" game play though. I just worry they are gonna nerf it too much to where no one runs it since it won't be worth the cost and then it's a missed opportunity on a really well designed perk. For the massive amount of bonus blood points BBQ gives it would still need to be decently better information for it to be worth running instead to most people.
What if it stayed the same but only worked on moving survivors? So if they stood perfectly still it wouldn't show them unless they moved.
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Lol, there is absolutely no way this thing doesn't change guys. Just get that into your heads right now so you aren't disappointed later. And it should change. The perk is designed to be a counter to survivors tampering with hooks but it is doing so much more now. What they should change it to do is keep the range and aura reading but limit it to the closest 4 hooks to the killer when a survivor is picked up. It will still be useful but it won't be broken. And if you think every hook on the map giving 16 meters worth of aura reading isn't broken then I don't think you can be reasoned with.
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That's an excellent point you make about snowballing with game speeds as they currently are, and one that I'll admit I (stupidly) hadn't considered. It's just a pity that the ranking system punishes it so unreasonably.
I think, or at least hope, that the devs have learned their lesson about overnerfing things right out the gate. They have said so themselves fairly recently. The best course of action, and the one I expect them to take, would be to wait a few weeks, see how Hangman's Trick gets used, study the data and only then consider making some very careful changes if they turn out to be necessary.
I actually really love your suggestion about having it only work on moving survivors, though I think moving should also include performing actions. So it forces survivors to stand there and do nothing for ten seconds or risk revealing their locations to the killer. It seems fun and unique, and I say that as a survivor main. My only concern is with how it would be affected by latency, but I suppose if the survivors stop moving a second or two early to allow for latency, it shouldn't be much of a problem.
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If it was only meant to counter sabo hooks, it wouldn't have been designed to work with every hook.
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"though I think moving should also include performing actions. So it forces survivors to stand there and do nothing for ten seconds or risk revealing their locations to the killer. It seems fun and unique, and I say that as a survivor main."
I actually like that change a lot, seems fair.
"It's just a pity that the ranking system punishes it so unreasonably."
That's one of the issues with the ranking system we have. It rewards you for playing inneficiently and punishes you for playing efficiently.
"My only concern is with how it would be affected by latency, but I suppose if the survivors stop moving a second or two early to allow for latency, it shouldn't be much of a problem."
I don't think latency would really matter much in this scenario, especially when latency is working on hook shots and hatchet throws which are much more affected by it and they are working (all be it rough these days).
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I have had huge issues with the emblem system pretty much since its implementation for that exact reason - it punishes people for playing too well, in spite of its alleged purpose as a measure of player skill.
The difference with things like hatchet throws is that I believe the killer's connection is given priority in those cases, which is why they seem to work. In this case, though, I'm imagining more of a scenario where the killer picks up the downed survivor and starts moving, but they see the other survivors' auras for the first second or so because on their screens, the pick-up happened a second later and they only stopped moving at that point. But as I mentioned, it shouldn't be too much of an issue because survivors can always play it safe by stopping their movement earlier than necessary to compensate for things like latency.
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That makes absolutely no sense. Here, let me remind you of the first line of text in the perk: "Your ingenious modifications to Hooks prevent tampering and permanent damage." That is the purpose of the perk. The very nature of the way hooks work is going to change in the next patch.
Since hooks will automatically respawn after 30 (or whatever short period of time is decided) seconds the functionality of this perk will change. But the purpose of the perk remains the same. To "prevent tampering" of hooks. It is not intended to make every hook on the map a surveillance camera to spot survivors. Trust me. There is no way this perk will remain the way it currently is on the PTB.
And it really shouldn't. It would be utterly broken and be used by every killer and not for the reason the perk was designed.
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That's what the notification ability is for, silly. :P The second ability was deliberately made to work with all hooks.
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easy counter, either get in a locker or stay away from the hooks
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If it's meant to counter saboing, it shouldn't have the kind of aura reading range it has.
It'd be a fine perk as long as it only revealed the auras of survivors directly in the vicinity of a hook, much like the way prove thyself works (a 4m range).
16m is a fairly long range when all hooks have a minimum distance of 20 or so. That means you have to make sure you're either in a locker, which isn't always an option or in that sweet 4m spot between all the hooks.
Wouldn't care if it worked map wide as long as the aura reading is reduced some, not saying it has to be 4m, but 16m seems like overkill.
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It will be changed, its better than BBQ currently, and this is pretty dumb imo.
I think it should work only in the carrying radius of the killer (56m without Agitation or Iron Grasp)
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What are you talking about? BBQ gives loads of extra BP and is activated on hook, which is far better as while the aura reading is on, you can already move in the survivor's direction. Also you don't need a survivor near a hook to see the aura
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That's why I said "only." Also, if it only had a 4 meter range, there'd be no reason for it to have aura reading at all because the only people who would get that close to a hook are people who think they can body block you or people who are gonna sabotage. The first group would be seen by the Killer anyways, and the second group already has a notification built in for sabotaging, both of which make aura reading useless. ALSO ALSO, if the perk was only meant to counter sabotaging, it would be garbage just like the old Hangman's Trick was (since even if a team had toolboxes, there's no way to tell if they are going to use it to sabotage or to power through a gen, making a purely anto-sabotage perk a complete gamble at best), so giving it additional use beyond that is very beneficial to the perk.
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- BP is irrevelant to perks performance ingame
- Hangmans Trick triggers EVERY time you PICK UP a survivior. So BBQ has MAX 11 triggers per game, Hangmans has UNLIMITED triggers
- 16m is not "close" at all. This is basically range of Deathslinger's spear. Given that there are multiple hooks on the map, and that hooks are often near generators or totems, we can safely say that Hangmans has at least 80% of the performance BBQ has.
- BBQ shows aura for 4 seconds, Hangmans shows for as long as you carry the survivior, so 15 seconds+
- So in the end, Hangmans is at least as good as BBQ, while it can be triggered much more often.
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I disagree with your assessment on rate of trigger between BBQ and Hangman's Trick. Yes, on paper, Trick had unlimited uses, but in practice, it is unlikely that you will get many more triggers out of it than BBQ. Maybe there will be a few cases where Trick will pick up Survivors that BBQ misses, but that's it. If you get extra uses from Trick because you had to let go of someone and pick them up again, the penalty of letting them go is worse than the benefit of the extra use of Hangman's Trick.
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With how often sligging is ised now, I dare to say that Hangmans will get at least a few more triggers.
But the more important part is duration. Carrying survivior takes quite a lot of time, so its way harder to hide from Hangmans than for BBQ
IMO, Hangmans should show ALL survivior auras in 56 meter radius from the killer. The hook part is unnecessary to me.
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Everyone is saying Hangman's Trick is meant to counter sabotaging, but if speed isn't changed from the PTB, it's pointless. 2.5 seconds isn't enough time for any killer to respond unless the hook was already within sight range, in which case the notification is pointless. Saving is much stronger and much more accessible now; the only way for the notification to be any good would be if it also dramatically reduced sabotaging speed. Like, doubles/triples/quadruples it. But the devs seem to be moving away from killers being able to make things take longer for survivors, so I think this is a good alternative.
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Kinda like thrill of the hunt?
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Disagree. Slugging means you are leaving someone on the floor, which means Hangman's won't be used. Unless you mean "pick up someone, walk to a place, then drop someone," then I think the downside of that still outweighs the upside of the Hangman trigger.
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Exactly! A information is useless if you don't have time to respond to it. It's like Tinkerer, I hate using it because 9 times out of 10 you will not be able to push survivors off the gen before they finish it.
Thrill of the Hunt would be garbage if it was just slowdown or just notifications, but it works because it gives you information AND time to do something with it, while still being counterable.
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I'm sad to say this, but HT needs to be nerfed (and massively). HT on a nurse/spirit/billy and there's nothing a survivor can do. They will know where you are, and down you.
There's no counter play to HT, other than basically hiding in a locker the whole game.
It's not even true that it prevents slugging - that is BBQ, which triggers only after you hook, but with HT you just need to pick up the survivor, look around and then put it down again, off to the next prey.
Imagine the fun in 2v1 scenarios.
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They are gonna nerf it 99.9%
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Not that easy, the sheer amount of hooks makes it hard to get away from them and unlike BBQ where the killer has to pick the guy and hook him this works the very moment you lift someone, you dont have time to get in a locker unless he slugs and the killer just needs to do a quick 360º spin to check the entire map to know the general position of everyone else.
Like someone said above, I doubt this perk will remain like this after PTB, they did the same with Surveillance, in the PTB it worked on gens from the start then it got changed to work only after kicking a generator when released.
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It will change but I think if they touch it too much it could suddenly be the dead perk it was before.
I wonder if it would be fine if the survivors were aware of the killer using hangman's trick. An icon which pops up on the screen maybe.
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I mean, this is just a PTB. They can totally completely change a perks Identity.
I mean, they DID change ruin from an early game stall to a "Late Game Hex" so there's no reason Hangman's Trick can't change too.
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Giving us notifications and icons for every single status effect in the game was a kick to the shins to the health of the game on par with insta flashes and double stuns.
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But the identity of Hex: Ruin did not change. It was a perk designed to slow generator progress before the change and it is still a perk designed to slow generator progress. Plenty of perks have been changed over time but I can't think of a single instance where the primary purpose of a perk changed. The change to Hangman's Trick fundamentally changes it's purpose.
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Fair point on the built in notification for saboing, forgot about that, but sometimes you don't see people who intend on body blocking.
Also I did already say that I'm not saying it should be 4m, but I don't think it should be 16m either. Like I said, 16m = overkill in my honest opinion, 4m was an example using the range of prove thyself which is only as small as it is to prevent it from being abused. Imagine that being 16m and just looping the killer near gens being worked on.
I'd even be fine with 10-13m. I feel like that's all the distance you would need for it to be useful.
Likewise old Sabo was garbage and not worth using unless you were a highly coordinated SWF. I mean it was literaly made to counter saboing not to be a GPS. That's a bonus, not its intended use. The auras would be used to see people heading for a hook you're going towards to determine if you need to go towards another instead.
Can you not Sabo without a toolbox anymore or is it just faster with the toolbox?
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But the change from early game stall to "late game" does change its Identity. Before it was a bit of a time buyer, but now you have to push people off, meaning it completely changed from good for M1 killers to not so much, with it now shining best on those killer's who had the draw of not "needing" Ruin in the first place
Also, DS was changed to anti-tunnel.
But actually, there WAS a perk that had it's ENTIRE Identity changed. Left Behind. Remember, originally it was a gen speed boost to finish the gens and power the gates, but now it's a hatch finder.
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I think you are getting a little lost in the weeds here. Read the first line of text in the perks. For example:
Hex: Ruin - A Hex that affects all Survivor's Generator Repair progress.
That is the intended purpose of the perk. That statement is true for old ruin and new ruin. Forget all the late game, early game, blah blah blah stuff. Those are just opinions which are debatable anyway. What is not debatable is that Hex: Ruin affects the survivor's generator repair progress. Old or new. You brought up Decisive Strike so let's look at that one real quick. The first line of text is the following.
Decisive Strike - Using whatever is at hand, you stab at your aggressor in an ultimate attempt to escape.
That statement is true for the original perk and the reworked perk. Now let's look at Hangman's Trick. The first line (reworked) is the following.
Your ingenious modifications to Hooks alert you of tampering.
Now when you actually analyze that statement it isn't quite as clear cut as the other examples. The old version of Hangman's Trick did alert you when survivors tampered with your hooks. The new version would indeed alert you to tampering. But it is doing a whole lot more than just alerting you to tampering of hooks. It is showing you the aura of every survivor on the map within 16 meters of a hook. Bear in mind that most generators are within 16 meters of a hook. So if a survivor happens to be working on a generator on the other side of the map the killer will be able to see that survivor's aura before they have a chance to hide in a locker or move 16 meters away from a hook.
That survivor clearly isn't at risk of "tampering with your hooks" in any meaningful way. So clearly the perk is overperforming. Almost every person who would be running this perk isn't doing it to prevent hook tampering. They are doing it to scout survivors over the entire map. Preventing hook tampering is a distant secondary function. And it's an easy fix too. I'm good with it revealing survivors near hooks but it only makes sense to limit it to the hooks that are within a certain distance of the killer. The closest 3 or 4 hooks would be more than fair. Anything more than that warps the intended purpose of the perk too much.
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And think you're trying to shift the conversation here.
My point is the devs very much CAN change the purpose of a perk. They have before, funny how you went into a long speil on the flavor text of the perks but ignored the big point I had. How Left Behind's function completely changed. This is just a PTB, so it makes sense the flavor text hasn't been altered yet, and I'd be happy to agree 16m around every hook may be a bit excessive, my point was more along the lines of the devs are fully within their right to change the purpose of a perk, and if they go through with it, I'm sure they'll change the flavor text, as they changed sabo's icon due to traps being unsabotagable, I'm sure they'd be willing and able to change some lines of text too.
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I think you are missing my point. The purpose of a perk hasn't changed in any given rework. Sure, it isn't impossible. They can change anything they want in the game. But there isn't a precedent. If you want to talk about Left Behind then we can sure do that. What is the purpose of Left Behind? The purpose is to increase your ability to escape if you are the only survivor remaining. Whether it increases your speed to finish gens, open exit gates or find a hatch isn't the important part. After the end game collapse was introduced, fixing generators when all the other survivors are dead is utterly pointless. The perk had to change. But the purpose didn't. This is super relevant to the change to Hangman's Trick. What is the purpose of Hangman's Trick? The purpose is to be a counter for survivors tampering with your hooks.. in other words sabotage. Does the rework serve that purpose or a different purpose? My argument is that it now serves a different purpose.
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If they do what you're idea is-----> no will run it... I'm not kidding you... right now its useful and players will use it... its not op, so what if you can see players around the map? Are survivors immobilized? Are there no perks that counter HMT? Are there no other ways to counter it either? And is the killer not stuck hooking someone?
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And there you go moving the goal posts.
The primary purpose of Left Behind was to repair the gens. Now it's hatch. That is a pretty significant change, like it or not. The identity of the perk DID change.
If you try hard enough you can find a way for any change to not be a change...
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There's so many hooks in this game it's definitely not going to be balanced and I agree it needs either a limit on distance or range. I'm so tired of everything being compared to red rank SWF teams that killers get frustrated about and complain yet they never mention the games that they slaughter every survivor with 3 or 4 gens left cause they're slugging, proximity camping, and 3 gening. I play both sides and it's usually pretty easy to tell when it's an SWF or 2 man and a couple solos. I can't tell you how many times I've been left to hang cuz I'm a solo.
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