Every killer when box changes go live...
I will endure the sabo changes to nerf toolboxes any day of the week.
Also Deathslinger got me really hype.
Comments
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Initial gens are going to pop faster with the “nerf”. Less total charges, but faster. It’s not really a nerf
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Except toolboxes got buffed.
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Honestly, I know its technically a nerf, but it combined with not losing items just means its a much more inviting thing to just bring.
AND you will be able to just use it for all its worth.
So yeah idk, I think it will be a much worse situation.
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Sorry to burst your bubble, but toolboxes actually got BUFFED.
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I might actually started using overwhelming presence now.
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It's just one more thing that you have to adapt and overcome.
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Not really, any yellow or higher rank survivor used the item until it had almost no charges so they could escape with it, most people didnt lose their toolboxes unless they were killed or got Franklin'd with almost no charges.
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I know, but its just a lot more casual now I feel, run in with a toolbox, rush part of the first gen, finish it and move on.
Just a quick nice boost with no extra effort of having to pay attention to the charges.
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It is though. Speed got buffed by like 33%, charges got nerfed by 66-75%
1.33×0.33= 0.44
So now toolboxes will let you speed up over 2 times less progress than before.
No they dont. Toolbox will be 2 times weaker than before
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Killer mains don't respond to facts. Don't waste their time with such things.
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Pretty much. As with most survivor "nerfs", there's a huge trade off to compensate most of the time. Compared to killer nerfs which just sees their things get completely gutted. Ruin is the most recent example. It just got gutted. No trade offs. Even worse than gutted because any possibility of synergy was removed as well. The ruin nerf was a debuff to a few killer perks, really.
That being said...I still think the toolbox thing is an overall nerf. The issue I have is the sabo changes. The fact that you can sabo a hook in less time than it takes for the killers hit cooldown is absolute BS. Whoever thought of that needs to be fired.
Those devs better wake up and realize that killers need to exist for their game to exist.
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What? The toolbox changes weren't even good and the gens go too fast with or without toolbox.
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Gen speed isn't the issue. It never was.
The issue is map balance.
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I don't understand this blatant falsehood. The issue isn't map balance; the issue is that three Survivors can be on generators at the same time while you chase one. Regardless of the map, three efficient gen-pushers can pound insane portions of the objective in the time it takes for the Killer to hook one person who sucks at looping. Gen times are insane, no matter the map.
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If you think it's false in any way, you're bad at killer.
If gen speed was the issue, there wouldn't be maps that are more balanced than others.
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That is the most hilariously terrible argument I've seen in my life.
"If you think it's false in any way, you're bad at killer."
Not even going to bother with this non-argument.
"If gen speed was the issue, there wouldn't be maps that are more balanced than others."
That is so inconceivably stupid. Simply because gen times are independent from map balance does not mean map balance is not existent. Of course a map with several god windows and safe pallets like Haddonfield is going to be safer than a map with claustrophobic LoS-blockers and nonexistent loops like Hawkins. But just because you get a more "balanced" map doesn't mean that gen times aren't going to be an unbalanced issue. Objective time and map design are separate fields of balance; they aren't the same, they merely intersect. Gens still have the same silly base speed on Chapel as they do Mother's Dwelling; map size is not the primary determinant; it is merely an influence—a significant influence, but merely an influence nonetheless. It is not the primary factor in this game's terrible balance; that would go to how fast gens go at base when Survivors are any semblance of efficient with their objective.
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It's not a non argument. Because I'm right. I'm not the only one who thinks this. Gen speeds have never been the issue. But hey, if all you can do is call what I say stupid, that shows you have no coherent response. Run along now.
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No the issue is gen speed.
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I guess your eyes just chose not to visually register the extensive paragraph explaining why you're making a fool of yourself?
"I'm not the only one who thinks this."
Yeah, and some people weren't the only ones to think old Nurse was OP. Some people weren't the only ones to think old Legion didn't break the game. The entire community thought old Freddy was the worst Killer in the game when the people who mained him all said, "No, you people are idiots; Freddy requires methods of thinking that you refuse to adopt and you simply can't play him right." Just because a lot of people think something doesn't make it correct.
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Toolboxes are still on the same level of usefulness, just in a different way. Killers won't rejoice.
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I read the paragraph, and like this current post of yours, it's all one giant backhanded insult, which is all you seem to know how to do. Zero credibility lies with you because of the way you conduct yourself. Incapable of a debate without insults. Even when I've been respectful. Calm your proverbial #########, and perhaps I'll humor you. For now, all you seem to be able to do is throw around insults, which shows me you have no actual idea what you're on about.
That is proven completely false purely based on the fact that there are maps that are more killer or survivor sided. Play an M1, low mobility killer on Mother's Dwelling, then do it against the same survivors on Lery's. Tell me it's a "gen speed issue". Of course, this assumes you're at least half decent at killer, and judging by the "no gen speed r teh issue omg" statement, I'd say that's probably far from the truth.
Sorry bud - you can't win this one.
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Gen speed is too fast and thats a straight up fact bro. Quit being delusional. You can't win this one.
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Your first response to my protests towards your initial statement was “You’re just bad at Killer.” When I presented an actual grounds as to my point and called you out for not responding with a proper argument, you replied with, “Well other people agree with me so you’re wrong and I’m right. Run along now.”
You have been more insulting and less mature than me this entire time while also not bothering to make a real argument, which I have already done. The only person losing credibility here is you.
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Consider this. If maps were smaller, if loops were looked at (so you didn't have an infinite move into a jungle gym move into another jungle gym, for instance), a killer could more effectively patrol gens. More gen pressure, more pressure on survivors. A killer should conceivably be able to hit nearly every gen on a map in 80 seconds, not take 80 seconds to cross a map. Even M1 killers would be in a better place if they could hit all areas of the map easier than currently.
That doesn't mean gen times aren't an issue. Having three or four survivors on a gen should be looked at. But the base gen time of 80 seconds? That's fine in my book. Holding M1 for longer is just boring.
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Maps like that do exist in the form of the Chapel and Hawkins. But guess what? Even on those maps, if the Survivor gets one Dead Hard for distance off or finds one lucky pallet spawn—if the chase is extended even a few seconds beyond optimal time, regardless of if it was a mistake on the Killer’s part or mere RNG working in the Survivor’s favor—the amount of the objective shaved off by three Survivors who know how to hold M1 skyrockets. And if you abandon that chase to go pressure the gens? The Survivor you abandoned will just do gens themselves. It’s a lose-lose situation. The simple fact that Killers can’t be in 4 places at once means that Survivors can strip their pressure with even basic gen efficiency.
I don’t think anyone in their right mind wants gen times to be extended. It’s a known fact that when you’re not being chased, Survivor is an M1 simulator. Anyone worth their salt who thinks objective times are the issue would much rather have a second objective added—not a secondARY objective; totems are a pathetic excuse of a diversion—a second objective.
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One thing i wanna syo to that section:
the question is: wihitch killer are ouy playing?
oneshot killers are very strong, also mobility killers with high range.
just 2 facts gens without toolbox
1 survivor: 80 seconds per gern
3 survivors: 33 seconds.
this is absolutly too fast. with toolboxes they are faster. if you play against a very well survivor you need 2-3 minutes to down him. in this time the gens will fly away. Old ruin was the only slowdown perk to givte you time. now it´s useless and i have many problems as killer main to get a 4 k without playing freddy.
so they really have to change something. for example if a gen is done he could be active for 7 minutes. after that time it could be offline and has to be for 10-20%. that would be very good in my opinion.
for example 120seconds per gen solo, 100 second 2 survivors, 80 seconds 3 and 60 second all 4.
what do you think about that ?
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@Demogordon_Ramsay A bad chase isn't on the gen times, though, that's just chase mechanics. That's where perk builds, map awareness, and pressure come into play.
Again, I'm not saying gen/objectives shouldn't be looked at, but it's maps that are the overall issue. If you could tone those down and rework tiles, you would get a much better picture at gen times.
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Can someone draw me a picture of trapper trying to fit all the perks killers need to use to balance the game already, and then a BHVR employee coming in, and just dumping Franklins, Brutal Strength, Hangman's Trick, Infectious Fright, and Knock Out on him.
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Even if you get chases done quickly, efficient Survivors simply do gens too fast for you to get things done quick enough.
Here, some math:
Let’s make the most average scenario possible: Everyone spawns in. Two Survivors spawn next to one gen and get to work on it immediately. The other two take ten seconds to find other gens, and it takes the Killer ten seconds to find one of them. The Survivor gets hit through a safe pallet they threw down and runs away while the Killer is stunned and then breaks the pallet, which takes about 4.5 seconds without Enduring or Brutal. If the Survivor ran in a straight line, taking into account the movement slow and ramp-up from stopping to chuck a pallet, they get 15 meters away before the Killer can move again. At a rate of 0.6 meters per second catch-up time, it would take 22.5 seconds to catch up when factoring in bloodlust. After 15 of those 22.5 seconds are done, the Survivor vaults a window. Let’s assume the Survivor is dumb, and the Killer can clearly see them trying to crouch next to the window. It would take about 2 seconds to get to the window, 1.7 to vault through, 2-3 to turn and hit the Survivor, 3 to pick them up, and let’s say 8 to get them to a hook.
Between finding the Survivor, getting a hit, breaking a pallet, catching up, downing them, and taking them to a hook, it takes 46.2 seconds to get one hook on a Survivor who isn’t good at looping. In 46.2 seconds, the two Survivors will have finished working on their gen and will have begun moving towards a different one, and the third who took a while to find his will have put 36.2 seconds of time into it, almost half of its repair progress.
Without taking into account prove thyself, toolboxes, great skill checks, or anything else that could speed up gen times, one-and-a-half gens will have been finished in the time it took to find, down, and hook one Survivor who sucks at looping. Despite that one Survivor being excruciatingly bad at the game, a full third of the Survivor objectives will have been completed in the time it took the Killer to complete one-twelfth of theirs.
Now imagine the Survivor is actually good at looping. Imagine they have Dead Hard and can get a lucky second chance pallet throw off. Imagine if you’re someone like Huntress or Myers and have low map traversal at the start, or you’re someone like Hag or Trapper and have to spend time setting up. Imagine if the Survivors bring builds that let them speed up gen times.
Completely disregarding map design, it quickly becomes obvious that gens by themselves are too easy to do and the Killer will struggle to establish pressure against good M1-holders.
I’m not saying map design isn’t an issue. I’m not saying that at all. But I think it’s quite apparent that gen times are by far the greater of two evils here.
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They have to make up buffs so they can continue feeling bad for themselves. Sheesh.
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Look, we might not be able to agree on whether it's gen times or map size, we can all agree that there is an issue. I personally think both are a problem, 3 survivors working on gens while you end a chase in only 40 seconds is 1.5 total gens done not including the time to hook and find another survivor without BBQ & chili and the initial search for a survivor. We can also look at map size as an issue because on the largest maps with 110 speed killers it can take upwards of 25 seconds to walk across the map if I'm not mistaken. The whole argument of whether killer is underpowered is only an argument among survivor mains who have never touched killer in their lives. We all know that there is an issue except for BHVR and if they don't realize there is an issue soon their game will die quick. Personally I've nearly stopped playing the game all together at this point because killer just isn't fun anymore and playing survivor I either loop him for 4 gens before he gets a hit and feel bad or my teammates all die in the first 4 minutes because they're terrible. The game has gone from an enjoyable thing to play to a boring sweatfest where if I have fun on killer I can't win and survivor just isn't fun bwcause there's no challenge. Killers shouldn't have to rely on survivors making mistakes, and they shouldn't have to worry about all the gens getting popped in 3 minutes. Things like the ruin nerf are unhealthy for the game and the gen speeds and map sizes are as well. In my opinion they pander so much to the newer audience that they just forget about the old one and ruin the game. I think if they don't start nerfing survivors for real and not the ridiculous tool box nerf that won't even make that much of a difference there game is going to go under and it truly makes me sad because just a couple months ago I planned on p3ing every survivor and killer and getting a hundred of each item and add on on all of them because I was having so much enjoyment out of it and then they nerfed ruin and made a lot of fun killers unplayable nearly and I just kinda stopped playing. I wanna be clear I have 1300 hours of around 70/30 killer survivor so you don't really have to take this seriously if you don't want to but I just wanted to vent about how I felt about the game and put in my opinion on the argument of gen speed vs map size which ones the issue. Thanks for reading gamers.
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You are acting like the item not being deleted is a buff and not just a quality of life finish at 99% thing. It's literally just a nice quality of life thing, is that extra 1% you use up really enough to be considered an actual buff?
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I dont really mind the change that much honestly. I would do party if the devs finally adress early game pressure for all Killers.
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I think the people calling it a buff haven't actually tried it in PTB because I tried the toolboxes and feel like they are completely useless now.... They literally feel like they do nothing and they are used up
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Enjoy your longer wait times as more killers leave the game.
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It still requires you to keep an eye on the bar, not something you have to do now, just a quick nice boost to get the gen done a bit faster.
Yeah its a quality of life change....if you just want to make it easier for survivors.
I just think this will make it so much more inviting to just bring toolboxes into games, and killers will be more likely to allow it because they are not as impactful as they were but that will still mean and ez 3 gens done before the first survivor is down, then more-so then now.
So in the end I think it should be preceived as a buff.
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CBA finding all the quotes I need, but Frankie and everyone arguing, yes, both gen speeds and map balance are problems, it’s not one thing or the other, but Frankie, maps were made how they were. Stop saying that you’re right simply because of part of the game that makes it a different game each trial. Yes, some maps aren’t balanced, but gen speeds definitely aren’t perfect. Games are shorter, but I’ve had fun since the ruin change, as it actually gives you the chance to run a fourth perk other than ruin. Both are problems, but they won’t nerf every map to make them balanced. Simply put, maps make rounds unique, and gens are fast af
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It really isn't a buff, it's just getting rid of an inconvenience. It's like saying if they found a way to optimise the game so it ran 5 FPS faster on average for survivor its a buff. No it's not and even if it does help them a minor amount it doesn't make it a buff. It's not like keeping an eye on the bar was difficult in anyway and it was such a minor thing it didn't even cause a distraction...
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Yeah.
...three survivors pushing a gen just as killer goes to pick someone up can almost finish the gen by the time the killer has the survivor on a hook.
Usually that's how the first gen is done at the beginning of most games, 3-4 survivors spawn right next to one and gank it before the killer can even cross the map to reach it.
Most maps sure don't help that issue though...
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I see that differently, but time will tell
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I can tell you're new to the forum, but I can guarentee you at least 12 discord groups each ranging with above 400 members had tested the changes extensively (I can not give you the amount of members were the same across multiple of those groups). So far have proven that the toolbox "nerf" is a buff. This is like when the dev's buffed healing, and said "it's a nerf because you heal yourself slower". We're not that stupid, and you don't have to be either.
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you realize toolbox change is a buff and not nerf right ? well lets say it differently its a change.. and new sabo ? thats gonna be a new ultra toxic meta and a lot of peple wil lstop playing killer, no idea what devs are smoking but ok.. if that change will go live see ya..
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So...you're saying when people like Noob3, Monto, and Truetal3nt. Are all terrible killers because when they go up against an SWF that knows how to communicate and work gens and can pop all the gens by 7 to 8 minutes.
They're just bad?
Maps and gens together are a problem, otherwise their wouldn't be a need for killer changes and toolbox changes. If gen speeds were NEVER the problem. They why are toolboxes a problem? Why are games getting finished in 7 to 8 minutes? Why are 2 gens popping by the time you finished your first chase an iridescent huntress? Because gens are fast, and maps are too big for certain killers. Yeah if you play some of the strongest killers there are no problems, but even then the best billy can still make 1 mistake that costs them the game, where the survivors can make 6 mistakes (2 per survivor if you needed that math) and still escape the trial.
If you think the problem is 'bad killers'. You don't play killer, or you play billy, ghost face, or are just a really good nurse.
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Shut up entitled survivor main, dont you now your opinion is unvalid because uuuuuuuh... You are a survivor main? Lmao baby survivor
now give upvotes.
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Something needed to be done the wiggle option is a joke escpecially with iron grasp I mean how many times has any gotten off successfully without someone taking the hit or playing against a baby killer it doesn’t happen so I’m glad all these changes are coming
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Maybe now with the new sabo it will give the opportunity to wiggle off without having to sacrifice a health state
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And neither do Survivor mains. The only people with their heads on straight in this community are the people who play both sides equally.
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