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This game is not balanced
WARNING: Long post ahead.
I played a game last night that made me realize something. After dealing with gen rushing all night and either getting red rank sweaty SWF, or random potatoes that i 4ked in a few minutes, I realized what the problem is with this game. There is so much anger between both sides and nobody seems to really know why. Killers talk about how hard it is dealing with gen rush, keys, DS/BT. Survivors talk about how OP killers are constantly asking for nerfs and complaining about tunneling, camping, mori.
None of that matters, because this game has some serious flaws. These flaws are what is causing this division, and the devs have a serious problem on their hands that i'm not sure how they can fix due to how the game is designed.
I have been pretty outspoken about how awful the Ruin nerf has been and how frustrating this game can be for killers, but i have changed my mind about it. I think the ruin nerf was a good thing although not for the reasons you might think. The problem with Ruin is all about some points addressed in this video:
At high level play, ruin was a minor annoyance, because high level players can hit great skill checks in their sleep, and they can get it off the map within 30 seconds of the game starting. At low level play, ruin was a complete nightmare, and would basically always result in a loss unless it was found quickly.
But, this got me thinking more about the game, and i came to realize something. This game is not BALANCED. Now bear with me, i don't mean like "lol this game isn't balanced x is OP, y thing is bad." I do, but only sort of, and i mean so in a constructive way. First, let me preface this by saying, this game is really hard. Like, really really hard. Think back to when you first started and how hard survivor was. I think we were lucky to get 1 or 2 gens to pop when my friends and i started playing. We looped killers for maybe 10 seconds at most and always thought they were so OP.
Now, think to super high level play, where most killers will tell you that the game is a constant uphill battle, and they always feel behind. This of course being compounded by the ruin nerf (great skill checks now giving huge bonuses to high ranking players). I'm sure some survivor mains will go "lol cry more baby killer, go use NOED, or tunnel/camp etc." But think about it for just a few minutes.
Alot of these problems are masked by how much of a snowball this game can become. It is really easy for a game to end in just a couple minutes if either side makes a huge mistake.
This Game Is Not Balanced.
I want to look at another game for just a moment that i am rather fond of. Chess.
I feel chess is a great example for this for several reasons. It is a highly competitive game and has some interesting nuances that matter a lot more as you get better at the game. For example, at high level play the general rule is it is a bit easier to get a win out as white due to 1st move advantage, and black is generally playing to equalize early on. This is because White inherently has an advantage while attacking due to the first move. However, this advantage isn't absolute or even perfect, even with first move advantage the game is still pretty BALANCED. What i mean is that, at super high level play, draws are extremely common. This person on quora explains it a bit: https://www.quora.com/Is-chess-a-draw-with-perfect-play-by-both-players.
The 2 main points i want to make from the above article are this:
Correspondence Chess: In correspondence chess, people typically trade moves off several DAYS at a time through email (back in the old days it was through the mail). The draw problem is insanely bad there, especially at the top level. A recent article on ChessBase (Correspondence Chess – the draw problem) shows that over 1,512 recent top level games, the draw rate is an astonishing 82.3% of games. In fact, as the article notes, people are seriously throwing around alternative scoring systems.
Cyborg Chess: This is where humans & computers play together at normal time speeds. Internet Chess Club's recent Ultimate Chess Championship was covered here: https://www.quora.com/Is-there-a-perfect-algorithm-for-chess-where-computer-can-defend-every-move in John Fernandez's answer to "Is there a perfect algorithm for chess, where computer can defend every move?". 25 of the 28 games were drawn, for a draw rate of 89.3%
The highest quality chess in the world is seeing an 80%-90% draw rate, and this is increasing! Pretty damn clear evidence that in the highest quality of chess, over a hundred years of analysis by humans and computers, that chess is a draw..
Now, how does this relate to DBD? Well, what is the "draw" rate of a game where both sides play 100% perfectly? I'm talking chess engine level and pro player play. The top 100 in the world. In my experiences playing, during a "perfect play" scenario killers would have a rough time. Basically a game would result in the killer almost immediately finding someone, then starting a chase. Then the killer would continue chasing the person while they run, perfectly mind you, from pallet to pallet. Remember, mindgames aren't a thing, as both sides are playing perfectly. The killer would likely drop chase early to pressure gens, but then the survivor would immediately jump back onto the objectives. Survivors would then, avoid areas where pallets have been wasted unless they are sure the killer is elsewhere. I'd argue that in a perfect play scenario that we would not see the "draw" that the devs are hoping for in a 2K/2E game. We would likely see the killer get very few, if any hooks, and all 4 survivors escaping.
Now, you might be asking why this matters, i'm talking about levels of play that most people won't ever achieve. Why does it matter? Because it means that,as the players get better and better, the game is going to be more and more survivor sided. But, due to how the game is designed, it's a hard problem to solve. If they start buffing killers to make that 2K/2E happen in perfect play and we start seeing true draws, then the lower level players would have a terrible time. 0 chance of escaping a game, likely only 1-2 gens popped (if any).
The problem is the disparaging difficulty of this game depending on your skill level. Devs need to take a hard look at the design of this game, and try and solve this problem. Because if we ever truly want a world where the game feels good. It needs to be "balanced" for perfect play, but also allow room for lower skilled players and new players to have a chance. In a perfect world with a team of "1500 elo survivors" and a "1500 elo" killer the game should still end in a draw statistically more often then it does now.
SWF compounds this problem even more. Imagine this scenario.
- The survivors are on comms.
- They simply take ZERO risks. The moment they hear the heartbeat (or spot you if you’re a stealth killer) they bolt like a frightened little mouse ensuring the chase takes the absolute longest possible amount of time, whilst telling the other survivors the killer is now distracted, get back on the gen.
- They loop, but they take ZERO chance of getting hit at any pallet and don't bother to mindgame. They drop it immediately as an obstruction and already know exactly which loop they’re next running to depending on if the killer does or doesn’t break the pallet.
- it becomes apparent (as 1 or 2 gens pop) that this chased survivor is going to be untouchable while the other gens will continue to pop.
- Killer abandons the chase to find a different survivor.
- Survivor 2, 3, and 4 just rinses and repeats the above scenario.
Yes this may seem like pallets are “wasted”, but at the rate of survivor efficiency it’s impossible for the killer to expect to get to endgame and have it a be barren pallet wasteland even if the killer DID break dropped pallets, AND the killer will have probably wasted more time doing so. There will still be many MANY pallets available to the survivors at this point of the game, and they’ll just use the exact same strategy for one of the exit gate switches.
It's plain to see that the math simply does not add up. If a survivor literally just holds "W" the entire time and gets hit twice before down, combined with finding the initial survivor, and grabbing and hooking, the amount of time that takes is easily 40-50 seconds. This is enough for half a gen to pop. even if the killer knows exactly where they are, with walk speed, 3 gens would nearly be done if survivors play with perfect efficiency. This is even BEFORE factoring in looping and pallets.
In closing:
Before you start "REEEEE BABY KILLER CRY MORE" me. Pay attention to what i said. I am talking about top level play, where it is clear that this game has a problem. You can "REEE" at me all you want, i am rank 1 killer every reset for the last 2 years with 700 hours played and i play basically every killer. I know a little bit about what i'm talking about. Do i need to get better in some cases? Of course. But the math doesn't lie. Perfectly efficient survivors are unstoppable.
Comments
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Saving this post for a later edit.
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Comparing this game to chess is a little wrong because unlike chess this is asymmetrical so its a million times harder to balance that being said a lot of times their balance really only comes in applying or ripping off band-aids like why nerf ruin after training survivors for 2 years to hit great skill checks if they aren't going to add a way to remove these skill checks you can easily take a gen that is 80 sec base solo and with skill checks make it 65 seconds
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Chess is also asymmetrical in a way. One side is typically the attacker, and the other the defender (white vs black) if black plays well and equalizes, then the tables turn yes, but it definitely starts out asymmetrical. I'm also comparing it to chess to look at the best of the best players. In the chess world, at the highest levels of play (or even in games where using a chess engine is allowed) the draw rate is nearly 90%, which indicates that it is a balanced game (even with the 1st move advantage)
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First, great post. Very thoughtful even if I do not agree with every point.
In my opinion one of the major problems with the game and why it feels unbalanced is the ranking system. It is far too easy to progress in rank which is why you end up with a cluster of people in the red tiers who are all extremely angry at one another. Survivors feel that Killer perks are massively overpowered, that chases become impossible, that the game is Killer sided. Killers feel that Survivor perks are massively overpowered, that chases become impossible, that the game is Survivor sided.
Anyone who looks through the forums long enough will see every argument made by one side being parroted by the other. You are right, the game is not balanced - especially at high ranks.
I am a Survivor main who plays this game very casually and almost exclusively with two equally casual coworkers. We do not play every night and most nights only have a few hours tops to spend on the game. I like to flatter myself and think I am decent at the game but I know -for a fact- that I am not great. Yet I am a Survivor rank 2. And my god is the game just almost unplayable anymore. I try to learn from my mistakes, certainly, but I have no real intention of dedicating myself to becoming one of these untouchable, god-tier Survivors I see Killers complaining about so often.
So where is my place in the game? A decently skilled player who makes just about as many bad decisions as they do good, and who supports the game through Rift passes and cosmetic purchases because they genuinely love the game.
Honestly, green/purple tiered ranks are where I belong. I won some, I lost some. But it was fun for me to sometimes have some successes, and no doubt satisfying for the Killer to stomp me down with ease other times.
The game needs a rework on how it matches people or Ranks need to be much more difficult to achieve. I am not a game developer so I have little to offer other than my two cents and an upvote agreeing with the sentiment that the game doesn't feel as balanced as it could.
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But in chess ultimately the goal is the same for both sides and both sides have the exact same power and rule set
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That is true, but, by it's nature it does not start out the same. Both players don't make a move at the same time. One player is attacking and the other defending. While i understand what you are saying they aren't the same. Devs want a 2k/2E average game which would be balanced in this asymmetrical game. I am arguing that in the current world, at top level play, that would not happen 90% of the time. I doubt it would even happen 20% of the time.
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The game isn't suppose to be balanced.
Missing the point like always.
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If that's the case, devs need to come out and say that so we can all quit and move on to another game.
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are you really telling me you’re not getting anyone all game? 😂 someone’s over exaggerating. Don’t fall for loops if you know where they are. Map knowledge. How is it fair for survivors that killers can kill them as fast as they can if it were that easy to get them? I’m no pro at looping but I can tell you from a personal standpoint I want to play the game too and Complaining because you’ve been looped for 10 seconds and gen rushed is stupid. You and I both know you got someone at least every match, it’s almost impossible to go all match and not get a single survivor. You’re just really bad.
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Uh... What? So the game should just favor one role over the other?
Thought the devs said they aimed for a 2/2 split.
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Duh, its an assymetrical game.
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I never said i was never getting anyone. The examples i gave are how the game would play out if you had the best killer in the world play against the top 4 best survivors in the world.
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Precisely. But the devs have stated that they want a 2k/2e average every game which they would define as balanced. I am arguing that under the current model that will never happen at top level play. Thus the game is not balanced.
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It's not supposed to be balanced. It's an asymmetrical game. You can't make a game that feels fair to everyone no matter what the game is, so you just have to work for the majority. 80% of the people in a match are survivors, so that's who they focus on.
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/clap
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You say the truth and i agree, but you forget one thing:
We are talking here about top player level without flaws and basicly wallhack and stuff? Like 2 engines (One playing killer perfectly and the other one the survivors) that are crafted for perfection and analyse purpose?
Then the killer would always play the nurse and would always win without loosing more then 2 gens.
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That makes it only harder to ballance. Just because it is a asymmetical game does not mean, there is no way to perfectly ballance it.
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O.o 1 I believe the devs said this isn’t a competitive game but a party game.
2 how do you balance for people who don’t care I mean let’s be real let’s say I normally do my gens do my loops and make my smart plays. But today I don’t give a .... so I refuse to do a gen and just sneak around the map stalking the killer. It basically turns into a 3v1 cause I don’t touch a gen.
why do you think they gave the survivors the ez button with perks cause they can’t do anything vs there real enemy them self’s.
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That’s not true stop playing the victim here. Killers are plenty good enough if not need nerfs sir. Consistent 4Ks need to be eliminated as a thing tbh. Too many killers are OP
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Devs have literally stated their balance point is 2k/2E on average, they already have that as a target. That IS their focus.
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Nurse has her own flaws where someone can dodge blinks, an i'm not talking hacking or cheating. I'm saying the best players in the world.
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This proves you are in the low ranks. It's nothing to be ashamed of, but its plain to see.
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TLDR you are saying what everyone has been saying for ages. SWF is OP and at high level, survivor is the power role. Glad you finally caught up with the rest of us
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I'm hoping that reading this some people will take notice. Maybe even we get a dev response that they are aware of the problems. Because if "everyone is aware of this" then why have devs not done something?
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The game is balanced on optimal level. You cant expect perfect balance in this genre.
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its not balanced at an optimal level. That's what my entire post is about. Also, i don't expect perfect balance. But i expect that if the devs want a 2K/2E average then they have some work to do.
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Where s the proof that its not balanced on optimal level?
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My OP laid out the case, but imagine this scenario:
You spawn in, survivors hop on a gen within 5 seconds. You start running to the other side of the map where they probably are. Probably takes you around 15 seconds to get there. Survivor hears your TR, starts running, holds W (lets ignore that pallets and windows even exist, all they do is hold w). Takes 40 seconds for the down (remember just assuming holding w). Then you have to pick them up, 3 seconds. Then look for a hook and walk to it, 5-10 seconds, then hook them, 2 seconds. Then look around find your bearings and decide where to go next,1- 2 seconds.
15 + 40 + 3 + 7 + 2 + 1 = 68
Even if you knew EXACTLY where to go (maybe you have BBQ, or thrilling), by the time you walk there, even with 115% killers 3 gens likely pop. If survivors play with perfect efficiency it is almost guaranteed that 2-3 gens pop on the first hook.
At this point the game is completely downhill. This doesn't factor in everything i said above where if survivors play with perfect efficiency then it will be near impossible for the killer.
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If you want a balanced game, try go, or checkers, I guess.
nobody should have ever let nerds pretend that SSBM is a competitive game because it leads to this #########. Games that have a lot of fun and variety to them crushed into rote performances of myriad equivalents to FOX ONLY FINAL DESTINATION in search of The One Best Most Winningest Way To Play, and it's especially bad nowadays because that player attitude influences the developers and can begin to warp the game itself. SSBM will always be fun with friends, because it's never gonna be officially patched. Once sweaty wannabe progamers infest a fun game, it will slowly cease to exist.
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Man, I will read the subject later, but the DS issue caught my eye. Personally, DS is not strong if you ask me, especially if you are playing rank 1-9, you should definitely stop using ds because the killers do not pick up from the ground for 1 minute. In fact, I was tired of entering 3 perks in this game, I haven't used ds for 3 weeks and I am really satisfied with it now. The maps have not changed at the moment, so the killers who will be nerf have not had any changes.
If I need to sort them:
- Leathface
- Hillbilly
- Freddy
Especially if I need to list the ones that are imbalanced should really have change:
- Old Decisive strike to come back. The reason for this is that when the maps are really sized, there will be no safe places again, the amount of pallets will change, there will be frangible walls, so you have the chance to make a new map at least 4k because that map is balanced. I personally don't know the design problems, but the decisive strike is really the biggest problem that it can't do anything against mori. As I said to everyone to talk about it, it is early, but instead of putting an animation for decisive strike, it would be better to come back to the old decisive strike. Remember that this is about behavior. Report if you are really annoyed by someone. These are being looked at.
- Legion because no matter where you look at the plugins it doesn't work. Everyone is talking about it. I will not keep this too long because it was given to general information. For example, Pin plugins do not work, no matter where you look because if we give 10 seconds to find a safe place after being hit, it seems to be 38 seconds if we calculate the mend duration from 12 seconds. Of course, this may vary depending on the situation.
These are my thoughts personally. It is an unstable game because the new map still seems to be in the testing phase, and yes all maps will be redesigned. I don't want to be rude to the developers as it is really hard to make a game and find a bug. As I personally did, do other things at that time or play a different game. The Rift closes after 16 days, if I remember correctly, the update will then come.
We'll wait and see.
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No ######### sherlock :/
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I didn't mention DS once in my post... Do you have the right thread?
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This is a terrible excuse. I guarantee the devs do not feel this way. And saying that "its just a party game" is going to result in a lot of people quitting this game. People play games to have fun, and what is not fun is something that is completely 1 sided. Imagine playing checkers (your example) but one side gets to move twice every turn while the other can only move once. Not much fun for the guy moving only once right? But its just checkers man, its fun its a party game, stop taking it so seriously. it makes it unfun and nobody will want to play that version of checkers.
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I said this in another thread but will basically TLDR it here:
- BVHR is not aiming for balance in the slightest, they're aiming to simply keep their live service cash cow afloat while making minor, low effort changes within their 'comfort zone'. See: Lazy in the thesaurus. After 4 years of this game being out, thinking or saying anything else is merely willful ignorance or delusion. If you need further proof of this claim, look at how many maps per year are being reworked. That alone should say everything. Most of their budget likely goes to hiring more artists for their cosmetic department rather than game testers/designers.
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The devs have literally stated that they strive for a 2k/2e average. its literally here on the forums. Unless you are calling them liars. And even if they are malicious like you think they are, it is a terrible idea to let their "cash cow" be extremely unbalanced, otherwise it won't last much longer and then it wouldn't be a very good cash cow.
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I don't think the developers are malicious at all, just not very bright. What I think is that they got lucky with this game and have been a 'victim' of its success since. If DeathGarden proved anything, it's that BVHR is a one-trick pony at the moment with Dead by Daylight. They're sticking with it because they have no other alternative, but also due to the fact that they've cornered and maintained a stranglehold on a very niche market. They know this. We know this. It's not a secret.
Additionally, their proposed idea of balance might be a legitimate goal, but I've serious doubts that they have a single clue how to get there. What I honestly think - and here is where we're speculating, is that they get together in some boardroom meetings and go.. "What are some problems we can address with the game?" to which maybe 1 or 2 of the developers who give a crap will mention things that matter, like map design, fixing bugs, or reworking objectively terrible killers. Then, some management figure likely brings up how much time/money that would cost to dedicate resources to and instead orders them to do minimal fixing while allocating more budget to the cosmetics team.
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If we shift away from Perfect AI Level of play to Perfect human level of play without wallhack, then there are mindgames involed and your example with chess is not working anymore.
So, if a perfect human player would play the killer vs a perfect human team, Nurse still wins all the time since you can not dodge a blink as you say. Remember, we are talking also about a perfect killer player.
The same would be with spirit. You can not mindgame a spirit and chases would end way to quick.
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Thats not a proof. I can describe the same thing but with killer dominating the game.
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"gen rush, keys, DS/BT"
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This is taking out of context.
The average if 2k/2e is over all matches played. This account for all matches including 4k's and 0k's to get there. It doesn't mean that each game played has to finish with a 2k/2e.
The issue is more about who you verse when it comes to that and how quick players can rank up on either side.
Take chess per your example you wouldn't see a grand master verse a new player who is still learning but in DBD this happens.
There is also the attitude of players due to that scenario. Some feel when they hit a set rank rhey should be able to compete more but unfortunately that's not the case as they may have 100h and verse someone with 5k+hours.
This isn't as easy to balance as a 1v1 game since the player base isn't large enough and no one wants to constantly verse the same players over and over. It would mean slowing down the feeling of you progressing which agamers don't like as much since they want to feel like they have a goal to work towards. Then there is queue times which could stay increased at set ranks. I see all these as issues which compound the problem.
The other issue is it being competative. It's really not as it has so many factors which work against this with items, offering and a perk system which goes against this. The game was designed more with fun in mind than being truly competative. It depends how you view it though. If anything making it too streamlined for competative play may make more leave the game as this means more are less likely to play around and the ovee powered gaje changers which change up the play need to disappear. These complaints aren't new to the game and have been mentioned now and again since the game came out but it hasn't hurt it in any way in terms of player count.
Maybe the game is where the devs want it to be for the most part and its the players who need to see it for what it is and enjoy the journey from start to finish rather than just seeing where they end up.
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Could you imagine the storm if the devs came out tomorrow and said " Okay so, yes we are focusing survivor fun over killers, all killer perks and powers will have numbers lowered by 50% to make.up for this, have a good day"
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The point i'm making is that the rate at high level play (including 4ks and 0ks) is not 2k/2e
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Just pressure gens, they say. If survivors can get to and repair a gen in the first 27 seconds of the game, then the game is unbalanced.
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The problem is there is no way to actually gage that.
Right now if we take just kills into consideration statistically it over the 2k and more around 2.8k per match.
Why this is like that we don't know, survivors killing themselves, playing around, killers doing well etc etc and its why they don't just use that as the overall way to balance and its more of a general guideline.
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This resonates with my experience as a rank 1 killer/survivor and it is silly that those in charge of game design and balance are so out of tune with reality.
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I agree. The game plays completely different depending on random factors. Playing as killer the obvious one is SWF vs SoloQ. But also Totem being complete hit or miss (getting cleansed in the first 40s? Well you are #########).
They need to streamline the experience so every match is balanced. Right now you can have a 1/100 match or a 99/100 match. While other games' scala goes from 40/100 to 60/100.
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The fact that there's anyone in this thread denying your claim means that they either don't play at high ranks or have never seen high-ranked play.
High-ranked play in DBD is extremely survivor-sided, and it's for the simple reason that nobody fears the killer; they know exactly what they can do once they suss out the perks they have, and the limitations that come with the role (having to hit a survivor twice, hit recovery, etc) which is where strats like body-blocking and flashlight saves come from. The only opportunity you have to take survivors off-guard at high rank is with NOED, and that only works once - and also if they don't do bones.
So long as a team of survivors keeps their bases covered, ie by keeping each other healed, doing gens reasonably quickly, and looping well, the killer has basically no chance, at best getting 1 kill, especially if they're playing a weaker killer.
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