Survivor Movement Handicap System
On PS4, the killer experience continues to be terrible as the ranking system constantly puts red ranks (as swfs) into low rank killer games.
I truly believe this is a product of people not playing killer since most of the time it's just not fun. It could be fun, but I'm rank 12 and just had 4 games in a row against full red ranks that (most) were clearly swf based on their coordination
I've seen people post about giving killers more BP or survivors fewer perks based on swf or something. I don't like any of these ideas. Getting more BP doesn't matter if I'm not having fun. Many red ranks can still run circles around most killers even without perks. Plus you'll still face red rank killers occasionally who (apparently) have no troubles ever.
I think the best way to fix this problem is a small handicap to survivor movement speed depending on stats. What I mean by stats is an algorithm similar to what I think they are trying to implement with the new mmr system. Swf, escape death ratios, kill counts etc. And based on this they get a small amount of movement speed reduction.
Why speed?
Because of the skill gap and the lack of killers, i don't think skill/rank disparity is going to go away - plus there would always be swf where ranks could be mixed.
This can be applied to individual survivors to balance teams.
It's the Chase's and looping that are the most frustrating part (and most fun part) of the game for both survivors and killers. Both would have fun and survivors of greater skill would have a challenge no matter who they are facing and the killer would always have a chance.
Alternatively, you could just have bloodlust increase much more rapidly when chasing a higher skilled survivor. My only problem with this is that it goes away when stunned by a pallet or breaking one- something that will happen a lot to lower rank killers by high rank survivors. I still think they would get looped to all hell this way. Survivor speed permanent reduction would mean _they_ would need to play more perfectly, not the killer.
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If the survivors are of much higher rank have blood lust increase x2 or even x3 times faster
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Punishing SFW would kill this game. I will not clog your thread explaining why as I just explained this in another thread - but if you'd like a breakdown as to why a SFW punishment cannot and will not be implemented I will gladly do so.
As for the rest of your proposal, Killer speed is already so much higher than Survivors that in a basic foot chase the Survivor literally cannot escape. Without a window, palette, or some good ole Cold Winds corn you are almost guaranteed to be downed. The Survivors who know chase tactics to escape without any of those things are likely going to be high rank/high win characters and they will (hopefully) soon be paired with Killers of their skill level thanks to the new matchmaking system.
Also, it seems that SWF is the thing you're most unhappy about in your post. Using SWF in an algorithm that punishes players would be incredibly unfair because SWF does not always equate skillful players. My friends and I? Absolute fools. LOL. Sure we are decent on a good day but we play this game to unwind with one another after work, or because some of us cannot hang out locally due to location, etc etc. So we play this game and we have a good time and we make some really stupid plays sometimes. Like going for that unhook in that last few seconds because an unhook is better than letting them time out on hook 2. Pro move? Nope!
So I should be punished? I'm not very good at the game, don't handicap me further just because gaming is a social experience for me (as it is with a mass majority of other gamers).
What it sounds like you need (as well as every other Survivor complaining about really hard Killers / Killers complaining about really hard Survivors) is just a new matchmaking system. Which we are thankfully getting soon. In the meantime try to not be too discouraged, it can be frustrating for both sides to end up with unreasonable skill disparity.
Hang in there, and happy gaming! :)
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If a killer starts a chase with a survivor and they literally just hold w for the 2 hits, it takes 40 seconss to down.
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I'm sorry, I don't understand exactly what you mean.
Are you saying that if a Killer starts chasing a Survivor and they just run straight forward for 2 hits that the chase lasts for 40 seconds? Because the speed of a Killer vs the speed of a Survivor doesn't add up to that in my experience. Is there something mathematical that you used to get that very specific time?
Because then... Maybe? But as a Survivor main I can tell you that a lot of my chases that do not involve any action other than running do not last even half of that time. Killers catch up to you extremely quickly. Also, keep in mind that most Killers have another attack that they will use. Like Deathslinger and his harpoon.
But as I said in my post - a speed punishment to all SFW is too broad of a stroke and is not equivocal to skill. I SFW and can confidently and honestly say that I'm a very mediocre player. Which is why I pointed out that matchmaking is the issue here. Casual players, new players, mediocre players who don't have the time or desire to become pro at the game should be paired with like killers.
It's not fun for a skilled Killer who wants challenging matches to be paired against the likes of someone like me. Just like it is not fun for someone like me, who is not brand new, to go against a Killer who just bought the game today. Player skill discrepancy is far too common in this game. Hopefully the matchmaking system fixes that. Not a game wide penalty to specific players.
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40 seconds might be wrong, might be 30, but there is a video where otzdarva tested this out.
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There is also going to be variance based on the Killer speed - all of which are faster than a Survivor (as they should be). But my point is that a SFW-specific speed penalty would not be a viable solution and would be incredibly unfair.
Also the moment that this game starts to punish people for wanting to play with their friends is the moment they lose a majority of their player base (and their income).
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Worst idea I’ve ever heard. I see plenty of killers putting people down. If anything I don’t think killers are really all that fair in some of the things they can do their Mori’s are irritating, because I don’t have fun playing survivor with those out there. Nobody wants to come into a game and get taken out right away. They need to remove those. Survivors are Coded to be slower than killers. They get temporary speed boosts from perks but I see killers catching me eventually no problem. It’s not fair for me that once I’ve been caught to be affected by anything that limits my playtime that’s what they need to focus on imo. Why is it fair for someone to leave a match with 5 thousand blood points and killers soak it in. Why is it fair for killers to Mori people but survivors don’t have an offering that can perhaps insta repair a generator after a survivor dies? Why is there no counter to that? Bs
My 2 cents
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Honestly if they make me move any slower as a survivor I think I’m uninstalling the game. I already feel like I run in place when I’m playing survivor. Like I’m running on a treadmill. A hamster in a wheel. It’s slow as sludge man. I see killers zipping around slugging people and one hitting people. I just feel like, you’re finding people, you’re downing people you’re having fun. Even if you don’t get all 4 why are you mad? People don’t want to die every game. Survivors love to actually survive. You know? Don’t feel all down and out because you got outran. Hell thats not happening in the majority of games I’m seeing floating solo between rank 7-8
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I agree that they are faster and there is variance in terms of powers and such. But think about this. i'm saying that if a survivor literally does nothing but hold W. Doesn't try to loop. Doesn't try to use pallets, does nothing but hold w and walk in a straight line. In the time it takes to find the initial survivor. Get the 2 hits on them, grab them, hook them. 3 gens will pop before the next chase starts. The math adds up. This means that half the killers in this game literally can't do anything about this:
Pig
Ghostface
Trapper
Myers
Doctor
Leatherface
Clown (Otzdarva also tested this and the clowns bottles only save about 3-4 seconds in that "hold w" scenario because he gets slowed too)
Legion (can't down a survivor with their power)
Plague (without corrupt)
Demo
Also Arguably
Freddy (if traps arent set)
Hag (If traps aren't set)
Wraith (only saves a few seconds from cloaking and requires addons)
Deathslinger (his slower movement means he takes longer to catch up, so the gun only saves a few extra seconds if you add up the reel-in animation)
This basically leaves the following killers to deal with this:
Nurse
Hillbilly
Huntress
Spirit
Now, after all of that factor in that survivors have windows, vaults, pallets, god loops, flashlights, sabotage, borrowed time, DS, deadhard,
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I think that's kinda what bloodlust is supposed to do... But you probably know how inconsistent starting and KEEPING chase is, even when you directly see them. Meanwhile chases just randomly start with survivors on the other sides of brick walls. Go figure.
Maybe just reduce killer hit cooldown? Survivors got their med vaults buffed, I think it's only fair. Especially with this whole "endgame is 5 minutes :^)" design crap.
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Bloodlust takes 15 seconds to take effect. My "Hold w" strat includes bloodlust.
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Of course, I'm saying in a more general sense that since survivors will probably not do that, some sort of tweak to the chase recognition code or w/e would probably go a long way. Though like you said, stuns and break actions interrupt bloodlust which....... I don't think is explained anywhere in the game? So yeah it's probably effectively a useless change to try to help the inexperienced killer.
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I was just saying in another thread that as a Rank 2 Survivor who was placed in that rank by the ineffective ranking system, I do not even consider escaping a feasible option anymore. It would be no exaggeration to say that I sometimes go days without escaping - so much so that I now have programmed myself to think of 'winning' as just getting more bloodpoints than the Killer. Or getting the most bloodpoints out of the Survivors.
And while I readily admit that I'm mediocre at the game... I see 4k almost always. With SFW and with playing with randoms. A 3k feels novel at this point. My experience in the actual game is so VASTLY different than what I see people complaining about on the forums. Because I've kept a tally and of the last 17 games I've played (none of which were SWF) -13- of those were 4k. And of the whopping other 4k there was nothing short of a 2k.
I'm genuinely not salty about it though. It's just proof that I (and a lot of people) are being put into matches with far too much variance of skill. Add on someone like me trying to level a new Survivor and you stand no chance. My rank 13 Survivor with his 2 yellow perks stands no chance against the Rank 1 Killer running his purple/red tier meta build. 😂
A speed punishment of any kind will kill this game. Especially, I cannot stress this enough, especially if that punishment is for the sheer fact that people are in a lobby with their friends. Yes the game needs to be fun for Killers but not at the expense of Survivors. And vice versa! Everyone needs to be able to have fun, challenging, enjoyable games. There needs to be risk and reward for BOTH sides.
Thankfully, a punishment to SFW or speed penalty to Survivors will never happen. The devs are far too intelligent and aware of the fact that they would lose a majority of their player base and that no one would be buying their Rift passes, cosmetics, DLCs, etc.
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What you described though is a very specific type of game though, with a chase taking 40 seconds and three gens popping. In fact, with the toolbox nerf I'm not even sure that a solo Survivor can do a gen that fast. I honestly haven't timed it since the changes.
But what I'd question is how often that -really- happens. Truly and honestly. Because I am a Survivor main and as it stands right now I see 4k about 3/4 the games that I play. And 3 gens in the first minute? Never. I see MAYBE two gens in the first minute, but that honestly happens pretty rarely. Usually it is just one and even that isn't happening every game for me.
Maybe I just have extremely bad luck in terms of Survivors on my team. But as a Rank 2 who often ends up with rank 1-8 Survivors what you are describing is that kind of good good that most Survivors are thirsty for these days. 🤣 Though I'll be honest... If I WERE seeing that happen I'd be very sympathetic to the Killer and bored with it.
No Killer wants to play a game where they lose within a few minutes. And no Survivor wants to play a game where they lose within a few minutes. And a debuff in speed? Or a SFW penalty? Not the answer to the current problems in the game.
As for the Killer list - the one thing you're forgetting about Legion (which is the Killer I play) is the Deep Wound status. Obviously as Legion you're supposed to inflict it and run to the next, etc etc. But! In your 'hold w' scenario Legion can Deep Wound and then the person bleeds out in... I think it is 10 seconds? So there is that.
And then for Dema - doesn't he have a lunge attack? To be honest as Survivor I'm lost in a monotonous sea of Doctor / Deathslinger / Myers. I've forgotten so many of the Killers. LOL
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Almost every game i play, 1 hook, 2-3 gens pop. It happens extremely rarely in my games that it doesn't. Sometimes i can still pull out the 4k, but its very stressful.
Also, you aren't mathing everything in. You spawn in, survivors hop on a gen within 5 seconds. You start running to the other side of the map where they probably are. Probably takes you around 15 seconds to get there. Survivor hears your TR, starts running, holds W. Takes 40 seconds for the down (remember just assuming holding w). Then you have to pick them up, 3 seconds. Then look for a hook and walk to it, 5-10 seconds, then hook them, 2 seconds. Then look around find your bearings and decide where to go next,1- 2 seconds.
15 + 40 + 3 + 7 + 2 + 1 = 68
Even if you knew EXACTLY where to go (maybe you have BBQ, or thrilling), by the time you walk there, even with 115% killers 3 gens likely pop. If survivors play with perfect efficiency it is almost guaranteed that 2-3 gens pop on the first hook.
Post edited by Reinami on0 -
I'm genuinely surprised at the feedback here. And yes, a lot of the problem here is with SWF, its also with match making. If match making paired people up evenly this wouldn't even be a discussion, games wouldn't be so incredibly unfair. But the fact is, right now, they are, especially for mid and low rank killers who continue to get matched against red ranks and red rank swfs.
If BHVR can actually fix the system so that it can create even matches, I'll be more than happy and handicapping solutions might not be an issue. But as it stands right now, killer is incredibly frustrating and stressful. Queue times reflect this, since no one seems to want play killer, especially on PS4. If you are a red rank killer and you're going against me, _something is very wrong_.
I realize that there are two camps, those who think this should be a casual game (or say it is) and those who think its competitive. I've been on the forums long enough that I think most people will say its a casual game, but then counter posts like this with "git gud". I'm never going to be good. I have two kids, a full time job and loads of other responsibilities. I get it, maybe this game isn't designed for me since I don't have the desire or time to memorize map tiles and watch youtube training videos. I don't believe any game can survive long term if that's a requirement for having a good game.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, something needs to be fixed. This was my suggestion, since, if the state of the game is such that people with vastly different skillsets are going to matched against each other for what ever reason (lack of killers, lack of survivors, what ever), then BHVR seriously needs to do something to address that. I hope their new MMR system works, but I don't think it will. I think the solution is some sort of handicap system.
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I came here to post pretty much exactly this suggestion, but glad I searched for it first. :)
I think a straightforward way to implement it would be to modify each survivor's base move speed by a percentage equal to the difference between their rank and the killer's; so a rank 1 survivor vs a rank 20 killer would move at 81% speed, while a rank 20 survivor vs a rank 1 killer would move at 119% speed. If the killer is rank 10, a rank 1 survivor would move at 91% speed, a rank 20 survivor in the same match would move at 110% speed, and a rank 10 survivor in the same match would move at 100% speed.
Just that change I think would go a long way toward mitigating the broken matchmaking system, and then based on the results it could be further tuned from there.
I also absolutely agree with you that scaling rewards based on rank differences is NOT a good solution, because it doesn't do anything to address the primary problem that a badly matched game is no fun, for either the killer or the survivors. Unfortunately, according to this status update, that's exactly what they're implementing: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/124795/
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So smurfing becomes even stronger?
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what's smurfing?
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Basically creating alt accounts so you can play at lower ranks. I don't know if deranking also counts but it's pretty much the same result.
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It wont happen because swf dont like fair games. If a game is balanced around their advantage, its a punishment.
Just chill and play survivor.
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my dude, if you're a high rank player and want to spend hours forfeiting matches to drop your rank to own noobs, then there's not much that any system can do to stop you. But I suspect that's gonna be a small minority of players.
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LOL No.
For starters, everyone knows the matchmaking system is broken...so survivors rank faster than killers. For this reason, a lot of lower ranking killers are of the same skill level of higher ranking survivors. This system is broke and needs to be fixed in itself.
Secondly, I'm not taking a nerf as a good survivor, on the heels of all the map loops get removed, windows removed, palettes removed or made unsafe, because a killer can't catch me even with bloodlust. If having more skill just meant the game got more and more difficult for you, you would eventually just stop playing because being good at the game has no advantages.
The killer currently always does have a chance - a good chance - and the game is being significantly changed RIGHT NOW to give them even more opportunity to shorten chases.
Just no.
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Yes, there needs to be some balance changes to some of the things that give survivors benefits over killers, but slowing survivors down is not the answer. I would much rather they get rid of the frustrating loops rather than slowing down survivors to make them easier to catch at those loops. Maps and gen times are the biggest problems, not survivor movement speed.
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They're already making several maps much more fair and balanced this upcoming mid chapter
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Going to have to hard disagree on this whole thing. Movement speed is a very difficult thing to tweak and it sounds like a terrible solution.
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They are making changes. We will have to wait and see how "fair and balanced" they are. I saw a video of some of the changes and some of them looked considerably worse for the killer. It did look like there were some minor QoL improvements for both sides. From what I have seen on the implementation of the breakable wall, I don't see them breaking god loops. In some cases it looks like they create additional loops.
I'm willing to suspend by opinion, somewhat, until I see it for myself, but there's no way that i am going to assume that they will truly be fair and balanced. If they are, I may regain some fatih in the dev team.
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Asking for balance in the game, by hobbling survivors even further in order for you to catch them, is not balance. You are asking for the game to be made easier for you. I'm not trying to be harsh but every time I hear people calling out for balance, its along the lines of "Slow this down, take this away, make them not able to do this" At that point your just asking for advantages for your side instead of figuring out something that works for both sides.
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So here is the actual math, a survivor has a base speed of 4.0 m/s and a 115% killer has a base speed of 4.6 m/s. When a survivor is hit, the killer gets stunned for around 2 seconds where the survivor gets a 6.0 m/s speed for 2 seconds. This would create a distance of 12m which the killer would cover with 0.6 m/s for the first 15 seconds, 0.8 m/s for the next 15 sec and so on. Finally, a lunge attack lasts 0.3 seconds and has a 6.9 m/s movement speed.
So if a survivor just holds W after getting hit once and the killer doesnt use any powers or perks to aid him and lunges at the end, it would take around 18 seconds to hit the survivor again. Not even enough for a gen to pop if 3 people were working on it with Prove Thyself.
Im repeating myself here, this is without any powers or perks, I can count you many and many killers who can get a hit way faster than this if the survivor was just holding W. You are welcome.
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