Make character reworks fun and balanced, not just balanced.
The last two character reworks, Doctor and Freddy, especially Freddy, are two of my least favorite killers to deal with in a trial. While doctor is only irritating sometimes, Freddy is stupid boring and makes me want to dc or suicide on hook like lots of others do. So for the next character rework, whether it's Clown, Pig, Bubba or anyone else, please just remember to make them fun to play as and against.
The character reworks should match the new killers in fun level. The Oni is a great killer, and his power is fun to go against because you aren't being disabled, the Oni is being enabled. Please make dying to the reworked killer feel better. I feel better when I know I died to someone with skill who used their skill to kill me, not just someone using a really easy killer with good perks and addons and winning not because of their own individual skill while playing them.
Character reworks take a lot of time and coming out with another character rework that is boring, stupid easy and powerful that needs another rework down the line to be remotely tolerable is a huge waste of time. So please reduce the slowing and the disabling of the survivor player and instead focus on making the killer more powerful. Make the game more fun to play.
Comments
-
I think that overall, That's what they are trying to do. But it's harder than it sounds
I like Oni but there are some people that will say "there isn't anything I can do against him", " He runs too fast "," he just slides on walls then insta downs you", "infectious fright makes his power too good " and that makes them feel like options are being taken from them even if people consider him balanced.
I'd imagine that, Introducing new and exciting powers/interactions, making those powers definitive during the session , and not making them completely frustrating, a bit hard. All while being constrained to ideas that not only fit the theme of the killer, but are also within the limit of what resources you have.
2 -
Make Killers equal power on console and PC. I haven't run into any good Oni's yet, certainly not any that can flick like they seem to be able to on PC.
Legion, likewise, is crippled by low sensitivity and low FPS which make his power even worse to use.
Nurse also has problems on console, but that one Red Dress Nurse is still terrorizing Red Ranks.
0 -
This is such bs freddy abd doctor players play with skill just like other killers
0 -
I think you can throw a big hammer on their head and Freddy players will still 4K. He is braindead, simple as that.
2 -
So is survivor
0 -
Fun is subjective. Just because you don't like the recent reworks doesn't mean thats the general consensus.
Honestly I also remember posts saying Old Nurse was boring, Spirit was boring, Hillbilly is boring, Pre Nerf Huntress was boring, and even recently Deathslinger is boring.
It is better to say you are having a hard time dealing with certain killers and ask for advice instead of just labeling them "boring".
6 -
I really think that Clown and Freddy are really boring. They play the exact same in a chase and the only way to counter their abilities is to throw the pallet down immediately and run away. I know that fun is subjective, but I'm pretty sure most of the players in this community agree with me, especially about Freddy. Actually, here's a poll that votes Freddy as the most unfun and boring killer to go against -> https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/134293/what-is-the-least-fun-killer-to-play-against/p1
0 -
You're right, developing a game is a lot harder than it looks. The issue with the Doctor and Freddy though is that both of their powers (or at last the parts they use in chases) are only debuffs to the survivor and nothing else. While a killer like the Oni could be considered unfun, you still have full control of your character while versing him, which still leaves you with some counterplay or at least a feeling of control even if you go down to him. Killers like Clown, Doctor, or Freddy cannot be considered fun by a majority of players, not just a small few like with Oni or Hillbilly.
0 -
The solo survivor is currently at a good balance but the SWF survivor isn't, until SWF is slowed down or solo survivor buffed up along with killers the gap will always be there making it unfun for the killer / solo survivors.
0 -
Fun is objective, I know people who hate to play against Oni with a passion ( tho I can say the same about Freddy and Doctor ).
0 -
simple as this for survivors if the killer is hard to loop they are broken. not saying killers should be broken but a survivor should not be able to run a high ranking killer assuming they know how to play killer for 3-5 gens.
0 -
while I agree in general, Freddy, Freddy is just so cheap, he has too many powers and everyone runs atleast (and sadly obviously) Pop on him.
He is boring AF and every time I do give the match a chance the player proves time and time again that unless they are a complete baby, its a waste of time, rather just run up and let myself die on the hook and go for an actual match.
2 -
Your not wrong, but with how strong looping has become, I believe that killer's should have to rely more on their power to help shut down loops rather than mindgames, which is why I 'was' a nurse main.
0 -
I can agree with that
@MigrantTheGreat I still hate spirit though the most easy killer to play in the game I might play her 3-8 times a month 3-4K every time
0 -
Everything is boring when the survivors are not happy~
0 -
freddy is not a brain dead killer especially in high rank. he just strong on shutting down long loops with the snares and the pallets means you have to require to remeber where pallets are and which one you use. so in a sense freddy power is based on survivors keeping a eye on the map and using their heads to know what is the most likely places that snares can be placed and which pallets are real
I would argue the reason why people hate him so much is in part they try to treat him as a normal M1 killer and believe they can loop him for several loops. Best counter to him is when he setting up snares on loop move away from it cause he cant attack when he charging the snare there a window for you to get away. If you stay there you will get hit or downed thats is survivors fault not freddy.
as freddy you have to keep in mind on snare placements which is crucial as spamming it everywhere is a huge waste of time as a survivor will just run to somewhere else if you are spamming it. also pallets on when a good time to place them as if you do it in front of survivor they are going to know and if they are comms say bye bye to surprise pallet hits.
a good freddy actually plans on when to use his ability but it still comes down to the survivors and how they respond to them if you try and treat him like a normal M1 killer you going to end up on the hook simple that is what he counting on so play differently keep him guessing makie it hard for him to read your movement predict his most likely snare placements and keep track on pallets
0 -
Granted I am a Spirit main right now (I'll pick Nurse back up when they fix her ######### bugs) But I mostly play Spirit at high ranks or if I'm having a bad day. Only reason why I like Spirit isn't only because of her chase potential, but she is one of the few killer's that doesn't have to rely on survivor's making mistakes to win a chase
0 -
What are the downsides to placing snares? You don't get slowed or anything, and it's literally just one second which is not enough time to run to another loop. Don't forget that unlike the trapper, his snares are massive and survivors can't just run around them. You arrive at a pallet, place a snare, and either the survivor gets hit or drops the pallet and runs away. As I said, brain dead gameplay.
0 -
"either the survivor gets hit or drops the pallet and runs away. As I said, brain dead gameplay."
Sums up half the game. The rest is survivors playing pattycake with their gens until its time to go home~
0 -
The difference between Freddy or Clown shutting down loops fast compared to killers like Nurse or Huntress is that you can at least move against the latter two. Sure, a good player can down you easily but at least you get a chance to outplay or juke them. With Clown or Freddy, you don't have a chance. You're slowed down and all forms of juking or outplay are removed in favor of a boring playstyle that requires no skill on either end.
0 -
Are you familiar with the concept of looping? Or jukes, mindgames? The point is that the survivor has to drop the pallet immediately against killers like Clown or Freddy. There's no room for juking, mindgaming, looping or anything else there. Just throw down the pallet immediately or take a hit. It's no fun for anyone and promotes a braindead playstyle.
1 -
I do find Clown fun to play as sometimes but the thing is with DBD currently is that I realized not all killers are balanced but I did realize some of the weaker killers are very fun where as stronger killers aren't. so what i think is that they should focus on the more fun aspect of the game for both sides, Im not saying there shouldn't be any reworks, but at least the devs should think about the enjoyment part of the game, But this is just me
0 -
There's also no room for mindgaming as killer with half of the loops regardless, so... ok? Would you trade every god pallet/farm loop/the-entirety-of-thompson-house's-gauntlet, etc for a few killers to not be able to force pallets in exchange for having zero map pressure in their kit? Priority seems a bit skewed when all you're giving up is exploiting collision boxes and the environment, really.
0 -
I never said I liked to run safe loops, maps like the Game put me to sleep just as much as Freddy or Clown. The best loops are the ones that can be mindgamed, and that's where the most fun occurs. I'm just sick of being slowed and left with no options or skill requirement to counter the killer. Against the Huntress and the Nurse and sometimes the Spirit you can outplay them with your skill and your movement, like faking out the direction you're going to make the Nurse mess up her blink or spinning back before you reach cover to bait a hatchet. There's no skill or mastery of movement versus Freddy or the Clown, just throw the pallet immediately or get hit.
0 -
you know how you beat a clown? hold M1 while someone else is running around throwing pallets early and wasting his time. Thats it. If you're that person being chased, you just waste as much time as possible, and your teammates will pop lights left and right. Freddy is a decent killer who has a bit more map presence, but he also has to break away from chases that go on too long to utilize it.
With literally every killer the chase mentality is the same: "the longer he spends on this chase, the worse his chances of winning." you're playing in seconds while they play in minutes. You'd be amazed what you can accomplish with windows alone when run correctly.
0 -
There is a vast difference between "Balance" and "Fun". Someone's perspective on what is"Fun" to them is always inconsistent with other people's perspective of fun. This is actually easier said than done. As "Balance" is objective, but "Fun" isn't.
For example: People don't like playing as Freddy because he isn't fun. For me, I play him because, in my opinion, he's fun for me. Trying to balance someone based on "Fun" while also making him "Fair" is hard, maybe even downright impossible.
If there's anything they can do, it's to just balance around fairness instead of "Fun", since it's been made clear that trying to balance something by taking both "Fairness" and "Fun" into account is, again: Impossible. As there is ALWAYS something someone is displeased about.
0 -
Ok, but my point was that no one is having fun in that situation. Throwing down every pallet immediately isn't fun, chucking bottle after bottle in a survivor's general area isn't fun, and holding M1 on gens isn't fun. People forget that the point of video games is to have fun and not to win. Sure, winning is fun but if the gameplay is so uninteresting for all parties involved then what's the point? I don't mind dying if I know that I did well that round. If I helped my teammates get out or ran the killer around for a while and got a good chase out of it. A good chase is looping, mindgaming, juking, not throwing down every pallet as soon as I get to it. The Clown and Freddy just don't have fun gameplay. And I don't care about winning if I'm not having fun.
PS - Most of the clowns I get have bamboozle, which sort of nullifies the window argument. And even if they don't have it, I can't fast vault while intoxicated so the window related gameplay is really limited.
1 -
you know clown is the weakest killer in the game right? If you are getting 4k’s with him your definitely not playing like your brain dead, and as for Freddy if you hit a snare then drop the pallet, the slow doesn’t last that long you can still make distance it’s not like he’s placing snares in front of you while your running to a new loop there still is room for jukes just not at every loop and you can use those snares against him by mind gaming with them if your manage to hit one while your behind a wall or something he’ll probably try to predict where you go and you can run in the opposite direction, he just shortens loops it’s not a huge problem for good survivors, and he actually has decent map pressure teleports to gens can be mind gamed and require some skill you just have to adapt.
0 -
If you 4k with the clown, the you're not going against very good survivors. I just can't see any way skill is involved with using the Clown's power, except maybe the one pink addon that exposes survivors who get hit directly. I know that Freddy's power shortens loops, if I try to loop anything against him before dropping the pallet I have to take a hit because of his snares placed around it. Like looping against the Clown, I have to drop the pallet immediately and I can't get a few loops out of it first. I have no knowledge of any skillful mindgames you can pull off with Freddy, since holding the teleport button and letting go at the last second is in no way skillful. His snares are massive so there's no skill in the placement of them, they're probably a good foot or two bigger than they look and thus can't be run past in a loop unless you want to lose a meter or so of distance, which will get you hit anyway.
I don't know if you read my full comment, but I said that I prefer to be able to move freely against the killer and have the opportunity to use skill to outplay them. There is no skill in playing as or against Freddy or Clown. There is no skillshot or precise timing like Huntress or Nurse, there's just a really easy to land slowdown that forces survivors to drop the pallet instantly or get hit. I'd rather prefer a killer's power make the killer more powerful instead of making the survivors weaker.
0 -
Freddy may not be a brain dead killer, but he is definitely easy to 4K with and takes no strategic planning at all. I played against red rank SWFs before and 4K'ed as a rank 8 Freddy with 3 perks.
1 -
you cant attack there is a second cool down if you cancel the placing, snares take 1.75 seconds to activate so depending on the loop enough time to do a lap slowdown last for 3 seconds so again depending on loop and placement of snares you can still get to the pallets and it doesnt stack as far as i can tell so that why im saying spamming doesnt work.
so again placements are key for freddy spamming does nothing but waste time and its down to the survivors and if they get themsef in that postion you describe that is their own fault you CANT loop freddy normally if freddy traps you with snares it cause you allowed it still thinking he a normal M1 killer. Also i find snares more effective when they are placed already instead of placing them mid chase
again there is some stragetic planning ie placements of pallets and snares predicting people potential pathing etc i will say he is perhaps easier than spirt and nurse and no offense but that 4k doesnt mean alot sadly as there alot of variables like the swf could be bad, you had a strong map and perks, you understand the tiles on that particular map very well so you knew where to loop/place snares im assuming you were using snare freddy. But thank you for agreeing hes not a brain dead killer especially as i am a freddy main
there are things i do agree like he is easier to potentially get a 4k then the nurse and spirit and the ease of placing snares but again spamming the snares is not that effective, but hes not brain dead you have to be smart on snares and pallets and survivors please dont treat him like a normal M1 killer cause hes going to destroy you if you do.
0 -
That would be a penalty to placing snares if snares were hard to place. Snares are like two square meters across, there's no way you'll mess them up. While snares don't stack, running across a second snare does in fact extend the time you are slowed for. And if the Freddy player placed them outside of a chase, then there is no slowdown at all. You say that we can't loop Freddy like a normal M1 killer, and you're right, that's why he's stupid boring. You have to throw down the pallet extremely early and no mindgames or jukes or use of any real skill come into play. You don't need to strategically plan where to put snares, since as I have already stated those things are massive. Just place them a little past the pallet and if the survivor runs through it then you get a free hit. I haven't even played Freddy more than once and I still know where to put the snares. You also get a really good stalling tool for free. As survivor you have to run across the whole map or fail a skillcheck to wake up, both of which aren't good. And the Freddy player does NOTHING to get it, you just get free stall simply by existing. Freddy is just too powerful for how easy he is.
1 -
Ok lot to read there and digest so i will go through some parts you mentioned first you can mess up snares i have done that several times but that can be easily due to my connection, skill etc the running over 2nd snare thats more on you then killer you ran over it and they arent exactly small as you have mentioned. But they also not that hard to see in fact they stand out quite abit so plan ahead.
what im getting at with placing them before chases is that if you know a certain area is where survivors are more likely run to you place a snare there and if you so happen to chase the survivor to that location then you dont have to waste time placing snares there, you got them good planning freddy
Also thought i would mentioned something i only discovered this not so long ago, that if you place snares right next to the windows even if survivors go through it they can still fast vault that cause it takes a second or 1.5 for the debuff to take effect. So placement is key again
So because you cant loop freddy like a normal M1 killer thats boring?! sorry but it sounds like you just want all killers to be easily looped and run around circles which for me is very boring. Throwing pallets down early is still going to waste time which the killer doesnt have you are meant to eventually go down its up to you to waste as much time as possible freddy just cancel out looping but if he doesnt pre place snares (which is very effective and requires planning and knowledge of maps) as long as you know your pathing you can string freddy for 4 minutes and the rst of the team get gens done.
the sizes of the snares i will give are big but considering the one key fact that i will mention at the end they are fine as is and forces survivors to either take it so they can optimally go around the loop or go around loop not as optimally drop pallet and move somewhere else.
im assuming you are talking about dream world in the last bit the stalling is only apply if freddy brings the ropes which i think we can all agree in this current era where gens can potentially be done in 4 minutes there is alot of these ropes about so stalling is add on dependent what happens to you in dream world that isnt addon related is you can get affected by the traps.
there are four ways to get out of freddy dream world two you mentioned the third is another survivor waking you up which is the safest and less time consuming (again depending on how you use it as it does take longer to wake up each time it is used) and the fourth (not best situation granted) is being on the hook. But ultimately it is down to your choice do you stay in dream world or do you wake up, do you rotate with other survivors so there always less people in dream world so the effects are weakened it is down to you.
but the key thing is stay awake it maybe a challenge but if you can keep awake then the traps do NOTHING you aren't even affected by the chains and ropes (less so with the chains forgot it affects awake aswell but it effect mutiples per dream survivor).
in other words if you are in the dream world get out (granted it is a challenge but isnt that what survivors want as they are finding it to easy lol)
0 -
The stalling in the dream world I am talking about is the fact that you have to run across the whole map to get the alarm clock, fail a skill check, get hooked, or find one of your awake teammates, all of which can and will waste so much more time than they need to. The issue with running around snares instead of walking over them, is that since the snares are so big you lose the same amount of distance to Freddy that you would've lost if you had just run over the snare.
0 -
Prove it
0 -
Kind if hard when the killers one job is to be tour opposition..now theres some reasonable things to be done to avoid a bad time however your expectations are synonymous with saying "makes the killer easy or it isnt fun" which is a corrosive mentality to have
0 -
I don't want killers to be easy, I want them to be fun. Freddy and Clown have really boring gameplay, but other good killers like Hillbilly, Huntress or Oni are fun to go against because it takes skill to outplay them.
0 -
I dont throw freddy with clown be cause believe it or not snare placement requires some knowledge of the map to get desired results..clown..meh..hes like legion but reverse
1 -
Fun is subjective though so you can’t really make it fun for everyone.
0 -
Sadly i think he just dont want to listen/ read i literally did several paragraphs going into some detail countering his points but i just feel like he doesnt cares he just always going to believe freddy is a brain dead killer when in all fact he does take some skill in terms of placements map knowledge and reading survivors
0 -
I already stated my points, running around snares is pointless since the distance you lose is basically the same. Freddy only takes the skill of a basic M1 killer, only less mindgames and moonwalking since his kit has an easy to land slow. His snares are really big and once you screw up once (like the window vaults interacting with the snares thing you mentioned) you never do it again since his snares aren't hard to place. There is not a high skill ceiling for Freddy like there is for Huntress or Nurse. Once you have the basics down there is nothing left to learn and you get stuck in a cycle of arriving at a loop, placing a snare and either getting a hit or breaking the pallet as the survivor runs to the next loop.
0 -
Its good hes not like nurse she was already hard to learn now she is hard to learn janky and not fun to play her use has gone way down
0 -
It's just frustrating to have a killer as easy and boring as Freddy do so much better than a killer that requires so much more skill does. A somewhat decent Freddy with a few hours in the game is already on the level as a experienced Huntress with five times the hours the Freddy player has.
0 -
While what's fun or not is subjective, what isn't fun is pretty widely agreed on. Stuns, slows, handicaps. It's why your first game as the Nurse is so frustrating, or why playing against Freddy or Clown is so boring. Some people find Oni, Hillbilly or Huntress unfun, but quite a lot more people find the Clown, Doctor and Freddy unfun. I wish the devs would get rid of slowing effects and the like and replace them with something else that enhances the killer's abilities instead.
0 -
Well maybe those killers shouldn't be so hard to learn and play not the other way around
0 -
Ok, sure. Let's make the nurse as easy as Freddy and see how that works out.
0 -
right here ->
0 -
Imagine defending Freddy's skill requirement in 2020.
0 -
The “fun” aspect is subjective. I personally don’t really like to play against half of the roster of killers so I play killer more frequently. Makes it so I don’t complain as much because I’m not exposed to those killers.
People who hate Clown but like Freddy amuse me. Clown and Freddy are pretty much the exact same killer except Freddy can teleport. Freddy is just a better Clown. Just throw something on the ground and slow down survivors. It’s boring gameplay because all you can do is throw down the pallet early.
I have no issues with killers being strong but the gameplay is either repetitive (Freddy/Doctor) or you feel helpless and that your skill doesn’t matter in a 1V1 (Deathslinger). Your team can still win the match but the match was boring.
I personally like playing against killers who make gameplay different like Nurse and Huntress (before dedicated servers were implemented).
0
