Let's end this now, the NOED post to rule them all.
There are many things in this game that are broken currently, for both sides. We need to stop letting personal preference about perks get in the way and try and look at both sides of the story, it won't be easy but It's the best we have if we all truly want a balanced game. Let's start with a controversial one: NOED
NOED gives the exposed status effect once the exit gates are powered, unless of course the survivors have cleansed all of the dull totems in the match, there can be upwards of 5 dull totems in a match, less if the killer is using hex totems such as Hex: Ruin. There are a few ways of looking at NOEDs effects:
1: NOED Rewards Killers for failing
2: NOED Punishes Survivors for failing to cleanse totems
3: NOED Punishes Survivors for doing generators (Very similar to View #1)
4: NOED Rewards killers for protecting dull totems
5: NOED Punishes Survivors for Gen-rushing (This is almost exactly the same as #3, but it's in the killers point of view rather than the survivors point of view)
(Please point out if you have another view of how you see NOED)
We can break these viewpoints up into 2 categories, for now we'll call them the For NOED, and Against NOED parties. 1 and 3 are in the Against NOED Team, and 2, 4, and 5 are in the For NOED Team.
The For NOED Team generally has the following arguments as their main arguments:
If you just cleanse dull totems then you won't get hit by NOED anyway.
The Killer only has 3 perks the whole game until the last generator is done.
The Against NOED Team has the following arguments as their main arguments:
Cleansing dull totems take a significant amount of time due to the fact you have to find them before you can cleanse them.
NOED is just not fun to play against because it can rob you of a deserved escape with an instant dying state attack.
There are many other arguments, but these are most common from what I have seen. As seen above a persons view on NOED is often influenced by which side of the game a person "mains", most often survivors will vote against NOED and killers will vote for NOED. To help remedy the situation I encourage all players to try the side you play less frequently and have NOED be involved in the game, as a killer equip NOED and see how much of a difference it makes when it comes down to how many kills you get. As a survivor it is less easy to control how often NOED is involved in a game, but that does play a role from the survivors point of view, see how much of a difference it makes trying to cleanse all the dull totems, maybe even try and record how long on average it takes to confirm that NOED won't activate, and at the end see if the killer even had NOED in the first place.
Once you have played as the opposite role, re-evaluate where you stand on the NOED issue. I personally think that NOED should be changed, I've played survivor and killer relatively equally, and I personally think that there are a lot of things that need addressing right now, NOED, how fast gens are getting done, looping as a concept and much more that I can't detail here. Please try and keep the replies civil, and try and avoid just repeating the arguments mentioned in this post, It's not going to help, that's why I listed them. (Also, I know this has been done to death, that's why I made this post, hopefully we can document all the NOED stuff here so that we can stop having 12 NOED posts every 20 minutes, maybe it won't work :/ but at least I tried)
Comments
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Another No Ones Even Dead yet crutch post.
Look I'm all for playing how you want, and with whatever build you like. And either way you get a gg from me and I move on.
I have a lot of time as killer, and my opinion of Noed is more from old school killer perspectives then survivor's perspectives .
When I first started playing, it was considered in bad form to use Noed. I was conditioned by the mantra of killers, at the time,that only noobs killers use it.
I have just recently switched to survivor. I have 7 devotions of killer and am nearing my 2nd devotion as survivor.
So, for me it will always be a crutch perk. Same reason 4ks will always be a win for me. I can accept 3ks if you got to hatch first.
But if you are consistently running Noed, it is probably because survivors are consistently powering the exit doors on you.
It is an OP perk that rewards bad game play. It is the same with DS, an op perk that rewards failure, and I will not run that as a survivor, out of respect for how op that perk can be.
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I don’t use it but don’t personally care if f ppl do use it. If you get me with it then I didn’t do enough totems I consistently do 2-3 per match. One would think with as many ppl who whine about noed and 3 other ppl in the game could maybe do the other two but that’s not always the case. Same reason I don’t complain about ppl running ds when I don’t use it especially since I don’t tunnel only slug if they purposely run in my way to try and make me hit them for their ds. Ppl can counter things in the game yet would rather complain about them daily use that energy to look for some bones which give you bps and by me always looking for them bones has saved my team multiple times from dh hurting us early as I took it out before it was fully charged.
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My thoughts on NoED:
NoED is both problematic and at the same time necessary. Those who don't run the perk probably get the most benefit from it, because survivors waste time doing dull totems instead of generators. Every second spent off a generator is an extra second the killer has. And time is a very valuable resource to a killer. And they do this without wasting a perk slot! Just the fear of NoED will have survivors cleansing totems.
But it's also problematic because it rewards lazy killers who sit and camp their first down when there's 5 gens left. It's not fair to survivors, who won't get many bloodpoints because they won't get many altruism points, and they probably won't escape because the facecamping Leatherface will camp until the last gen's done, and then go after you when he only has to hit you once because he denied you the time necessary to do totems by camping your teammate and eating away as much of your time as possible. It's not fair to other killers, either, who put more effort in, and wind up with only 2 kills.
Those killers probably won't Pip, but they don't care about pipping. Why would they care about pipping? Rank is meaningless in the game. It's just bragging rights, and maybe harder matches. Besides, everyone knows a 4K is a win! Doesn't matter if you pip or not. After all, you could snowball the game, killing all 4 survivors in a matter of two minutes, and then not pip. No face camping. Just downright slaughter. Is that NOT a win? Nobody can even agree what a 'win' is. Is it a win if you pip? Double pip? 4K? 3K? 2K?
The truth is: Killers need incentive to leave the hook. Yeah, that's why we have perks like BBQ, but that's only if you: 1. Bought Leatherface and 2. Care about bloodpoints at all. (If you're playing killer, you're probably making great BP anyway). They need an incentive to LET survivors get rescued. Personally when I play Killer (which is quite a lot) unless I see scratchmarks or see a survivor with my own eyes, I leave the hook immediately and let the rescue happen.
NoED gives survivors incentive to do Totems. Killers need an incentive to let survivors unhook each other. I'm not sure what could be done in that regard, though.
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Nah. I play both sides. I don’t use NOED in regular gameplay (very, very occasionally in end game builds, or for the tome challenge a while back). I don’t complain about NOED to the killer or anything, play whatever you want, but I also think it’s a poorly designed perk. People are free to run it but most of the killers I see using it are not very good at the game. It disproportionately punishes solo players, and buffs camping and moris, so I think it encourages unhealthy gameplay. I wish it would be reworked or deleted, and I play as much killer as survivor. It’s just a perk that holds the hands of new killers in my experience which is probably why the devs won’t change it.
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The biggest issues with the Perk are:
a) It has no warning. Only until someone is downed do you get a notification that everyone is suddenly exposed.
b) You can cleanse totems but can still be penalised for your team missing totems. Solo Survivors know this pain very well.
c) It rewards a Killer who is less skilled than the Survivors they were matched against. The Survivors could doing very well but are penalised because 1 totem was left standing at the end of the match.
d) It’s overkill on Killers who are more skilled than the Survivors they were matched against. The Killer could be doing very well and now has an overkill option for the last 1 or 2 Survivors on death-hook. If 1 Survivor remains, they have almost no chance of escaping. If 2 Survivors remain, only 1 is likely to escape but that’s very dependent on whether the Survivors were separate and near Exit Gates.
e) In every match, Survivors have to cleanse dull totems. It doesn’t matter whether NOED is in-game or not, they are not cleansing for other reasons unless they get a notification that Retribution, Thrill of the Hunt or Hag is in-game. And even then, the Survivors primary reason is because of 1 heavily influential Perk potentially being in-game.
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I don't think noed is necessary, I am a killer main, I love this game and hate it at the same time, I rarely use noed even when I started playing, so far in about 1 year and a few months I have used it twice, 1st when I was barely starting with legion and 2nd on the tome challenge, while I think before it was decently broken, now with the maps that got smaller I don't think people should use it, but it's their game, they bought it, what they do with it it's their thing.
I'm a pretty competitive player, I try to git gud and continue growing as a player, I come from a lot of pvp games, I participated in a lot of dark souls tourneys, I try to beat the other player fair and balanced (even though this game is kinda unbalanced) (before this patch, I have done about 30 matches on this patch) but going back to the post.
I think noed is unhealthy and should be reworked, it limits people to grow with more skill, they rely way too much on 1 perk.
P.s: sorry for my english, it's not my first language
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every single NOED user i have seen got 1 extra hook max, which was often on an already injured person. if youre struggling either get better or get the TOTEMS, really not that difficult tbh and you should do totems. i dont use NOED but nothing is more boring than people who swf and rush gens.
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I feel like need just gives you hook trades you already would've gotten without it. I'll wholeheartedly support a need rework when DS is changed.
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Couldn't read the post because I was too busy thinking about this.
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I was goofing around and tried to took your points and make it into DS points and actually matches almost perfectly:
a) It has little warning. Only giving information of one obsession and not even the only way an obsession is on the match.
b) You can slug the guy but still be penalized by Unbreakable or other Survivor helping them.
c) It rewards Survivors that are less skilled as the Killer they are matched against. The Killer could be performing very well and be punished by downing people too quickly.
d) It's overkill on Survivors who are more skilled than the Killer they were matched against. The Survivors could be doing very well and now have 60 seconds of immunity for each DS on the team on top of their pressure on gens. If one exit gate is opened the DS user is basically guaranteed to escape.
e) in every match Killers have to play around DS on all Survivors even though the presence isn't guarantee and the only reason to do that is because of DS.
I found it funny that so much similarities are found on this two perks but only one of them has 100% guarantee counter of cleansing totems (slugging or "not tunneling" aren't 100% methods and don't takes the perk out of the trial).
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Who tf defends a Dull Totem?
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To be frank, the "Survivors can prevent it by cleansing totems" argument always bugs me because if someone has ever played solo survivor, they would know that that wouldn't be ethical at all.
Don't recommend me to just cleanse all totems, I will need to find all 5 totems myself in a solo queue and that's way too much effort to negate a perk the killer MIGHT have which MIGHT activate.
Don't recommend me to bring Detectives Hunch, Small Game or a map for it, I'm not gonna bring this for the same reason. A perk the killer MIGHT have that MIGHT activate.
And yes I don't have friends to play with most times :)
Other than the totem issue (which I hope devs will look at someday, I will be happy when we get a totem indicator next to the gen indicator), let me say this, I'm not a very good killer. When I face good SWF teams who can coordinate and loop, usually when the gates are powered 3-4 of them will still be alive. If I have NOED in these scenarios, sometimes I can down, hook and kill 2-3 of them before the other(s) escape.
Don't get me wrong, I don't find this fair at all. I should be penalized in these games, instead I'm being allowed one hit downs and faster movement speed that the survivors can't do much against in a chase. I usually pip/black pip just because of a perk in a game I would otherwise leave with 1, if I camp the last guy and there is no BT or DS, maybe 2 kills and depip.
TLDR; Totems need QOL update for solo queue, I have no friends and I believe NOED isn't fair (don't curse at me blindly if you haven't bothered reading everything above).
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Who says I don’t think DS needs changes?
Using whataboutism to ignore a problem doesn’t fix anything.
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DS doesn't really reward low skill survivors. If you're a low skill survivor, you buy yourself like 5 seconds max. And it can only be used once per survivor, and takes up a perk slot. Low skill survivors will rarely get away because of DS. Low skill killers however can get extra kills from NoED much easier. People love to compare DS and NoED, but DS is way less powerful. Which is why NoED can be cleansed.
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So the only argument against it is if survivors are too lazy to use any of the plethora of countermeasures it doesn't feel good to be one hit down ?
Am I understanding that correctly ?
So all the other one hit down powers killers have are... what exactly ? They fine ? Oni-mike-billy-leather-irrhatch-deathsling-ghostie.
All have one hit downs that you can charge and use mid match multiple times whenever... but the only one you have control over activating need that only works when the gates are powered thats the one survivors can't handle?
I'm reading the comments but I'm really not seeing anything that conceives me against noed. Its strong... I guess... stronger then monterous shrine but killers really don't have anything too powerful perk wise... some add ons I can see the arguments for but noed? Its not that good
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1. Not just for failing but often times for playing toxic. For instance if a killer face camps or brings an ebony mori the survivors are essentially forced to gen rush. Cleansing totems in this scenerio is just not feasible even with totem hunting perks. Especially now that many maps have been reworked to favor killers even more. Anyone who plays survivor at any considerable length understands this. NOED on a face camping leatherface is near impossible to counter.
2. I would say this is true in certain situations. Not when survivors are forced to gen rush (see 1). In situations where the killer doesn't have a mori, hasn't face camped anyone, only had hooks on a few survivors then the survivors dont need to rush the last gen and obviously had plenty of time to do totems.
3. Certainly punishes survivors for playing smart and effective in cases of ebony moris and facecamping. But if none of those are involved I would say it's a failure of killer and survivor.
4. This is the most laughable view. Killers dont protect dull totems.
5. Yes but sometimes survivors have to gen rush as stated in 1.
Basically NOED without any other toxic killer play is fine. But when you're dealing with an ebony mori killer or facecamping bubba and then have to deal with NOED at the end to top it all off it becomes stupid and broken.
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Only bad, lazy survivors complain about NOED.
Period.
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I just want to bring up the end of your post. Bringing an item or offering, or using a certain playstyle (camping, in this case, which is a legitimate playstyle), no matter how much you disapprove of it's existence, is never toxic. It's in the game.
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Survivors don't have to do bones, and probably shouldn't. Attempting to do bones every game is a good way to go on a losing streak.
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As a killer main I think NOED, DS, and adrenaline need reworks.
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Only bad lazy killers defend NOED.
Period.
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Playing both sides, i like it as Survivor & dislike it as Killer.
Killer's reason: It's a late-game Perk. I don't like those.
Survivor's reason: I like trying to find all.
Huh, i guess i'm pretty much the opposite of pretty much everyone in this Perk's regard. 😋
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i dont care about noed i need in game settings pls bhvr
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Dang that's a lot of upvotes when you are clearly mistaken. If the killer is doing badly, they are giving the survivors extra time. If the survivors don't use the extra time to do bones, then NOED is completely justified in that scenario. It's not that the survivors should be punished for genrushing by NOED, it's that NOED is fair(in this sense) because a bad killer will not be able to activate it against good survivors. I hate to echo the words of so many trolls and spammers, but the perk really is in the survivors' control...when the killer is bad. Outside of those scenarios I would say you pretty much nailed everything else.
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See, that argument doesn't work both ways, Mr. Entitled Survivor Main. NOED is deactivated all game. It doesn't exist until the end. It can be prevented entirely FROM existing - and the ones who control whether it exists or not...wait for it...survivors. So, be less lazy. :)
Also, stop using DS and Adrenaline. Then you can complain about NOED. Until then, run along and keep dying to NOED because you didn't cleanse totems.
You will never win this argument.
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Aren't you special 🤗
Honestly finding bones is way better than pumping gens
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Noed noed blablablah wasted effort. Go do the bones.
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It does exist though, why else would survivors do bones from a competitive perspective?
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Want to hear more?
After 4 years, i still don't mind being on Generators mostly.
I do recognize it can be very boring, and won't protest against making Survivor gameplay more diverse.
Just that i don't personally mind the current state of their gameplay.
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I agree NOED isn't that strong of a perk against good survivors, but there are other reasons to complain about the perk. The big ones being how it emphasizes the solo-swf divide and how it rewards "bad" playstyles like camping. Not a huge problem, but definitely unhealthy.
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It's almost as if AFKing gens may not always be the most viable strategy to win:O
POG.
I wouldn't say it rewards camping. If NOED exists at the end of a game where a killer camped all game and didn't defend anything, gens or totems alike, it sounds like another case of survivors just being too lazy to get the full job done. You are however right, though. Against good players, NOED means nothing for the most part. That's how you can so easily brand the ones who complain about it as mediocre at best.
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That's an interesting opinion, thanks for sharing!
I personally am against generators as an objective from a balance perspective more than a casual perspective. With only 1 objective the survivors have to complete, it makes tempo pretty inconsistent between games. I always liked the idea of Trials having different Stages in them in order to smooth this out, or even just a second objective. A second objective would even out the tempo by acting as a sort of locked door between separate objective checkpoints. A good example would be having to fix fuse boxes to complete generators. It adds a space of time in between each generator completion where survivors are forced to do a particular objective, instead of the very flexible generators which you can work on as you wish and pace the game how you like. Put simply, I would say that they don't enforce enough structure that would make the game feel less RNG based and more rewarding to players who focus on it.
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Camping is the easiest way to put pressure on survivors. I know that may sound counter-intuitive, but when the killer is camping the survivors have a set amount of time before a survivor is put under permanent pressure. This threat of permanent pressure means that the game will fall out of their favor if they make a mistake like checking the hook or spending too long looking for a gen. Basically, camping the hook is like going on a 120 second chase that ends with the survivor being moried.
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Survivors only stay on the hook for so long. If a killer is camping you would be dumb to try and do both gens and totems. There isnt time. The game becomes much harder for survivors once one is dead. If three gens aren't done by the time one survivor dies, you probably aren't escaping. Camping killers force gen rush.
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Cool, I don't use DS or Adrenaline. I run Kindred, Inner Strength, Spine Chill and Detective's Hunch And I cleanse Totems. Guess that means I can complain! Cause NoED definitely rewards camping when it shouldn't.
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Good and proactive survivor who hates NoED here.
Your stereotype is completely wrong.
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The main thing that NoED has is that element of surprise, which for a NON-TEACHABLE is kind of BS, and is a trait that is shared with only two exposed effects within the entire game: NoED and DEVOUR HOPE. One of which has an activation requirement, like every other Exposed effect.
As for the whole "3 Perks all game" garbage excuse, if my other Hex is cleansed in the first 30 seconds, I'm playing with 3 perks all game. I don't use that as an excuse to camp/tunnel in response to what happened.
NoED is an extremely unique perk that has zero true activation requirement, and doesn't follow the patterns of every other exposed effect. Here's my simple change to make the perk less frustrating to go against for everyone:
- Only activates after 5 generators have been completed
- Instantly warns the Survivors that they are affected by the perk
There! Simple change, still keeps it's power level, but is now infinitely less frustrating to go against. If I really wanted to get nasty though, I'd say something like add a clause that a Survivor must have been hooked at least once, making the killer actually WORK for their Exposed/
"Entitled survivor main" comments, even though I have a killer's name first in 3....... 2....... 1........
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"Just pressure bones, bro!!"
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I’ve seen a few people saying “noed” rewards camping.
From the perspective of a fairly new player I thought the same thing. Why? I was a camper. I also didn’t know what that meant until an angry survivor messaged me some lovely words about “face camping” which after googling it I’m very glad I picked up the game after the actual face camp patch.
What I experienced before I learned about camping is that, yes it rewarded my actions but only to a momentarily and rare extent. The thing is after finally downing a survivor while I had noed, I would camp their hook waiting for the other survivors. (I have since stopped of course haha) This camping gave the other 1-3 survivors plenty of time to either escape or find the active totem and cancel out the noed. It happened way more often than not. That doesn’t seem very rewarding of the killer to me. It was very frustrating. I never knew I could get so infuriated at the crouching action of other players out of my reach. 😂
From the survivor’s perspective, if the survivors are good enough to avoid being hooked or killed the entire match before the camper with noed gets to use the perk and actually sacrifices them, their end game points are still rather high and more often than not it doesn’t effect their level if they put in the work.
Be kind, Im still a bb lvl 15-16 survivor and killer and by no means a professional player. This is only opinion based on what I’ve experienced so far.
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I haven't seen NOED in a single one of my matches cause by the time the exit gate opens I've cleansed all of the totems. Run Detectives Hunch all of the totems are down in a couple minutes.
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"robs you of a deserved escape" if you didn't clense the bones then get hit by noed then it wasn't a deserved escape you willingly completed objectives while ignoring totems
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If you cry loud enough, the devs will eventually cave in, as they always do. In the meantime, do bones.
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NOED is balanced for the reasons you did state. It's not hard too find totems when A: they spawn in pre set locations, B: Use a map too track them, or C: run a perk too find them. I do mostly play killer, but I also play some survivor, and I can say that I don't have an issue with NOED on either side. If I get hit by it it's my own fault for not doing bones, and If I use it then it's the survivors fault for not doing bones.
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NOED is in a good spot. There is no such thing as gen rush.
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If you remove noed, there will be literally no reason for survivors to cleanse non hex totems. This would make gen rushing far worse. Totems are the closest thing to a secondary objective that there is. Noed is the only way to make these totems useful. Survivors either ignore the totems and possibly get hit with noed, half ass the totems (not necessarily anyone's fault, I am all for a totem counter so that solo gets brought up to speed as if swf on totems) and possibly get hit with noed, or they spend the extra time to break all the totems and eliminate any chance of noed. In my group I am designated totem guy, detectives hunch. We regularly spank rank 1 killers. Hunch makes short work of other hex perks too. Do the bones or face the consequences.
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Correction - survivors reward camping. Not NOED.
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No, NoED rewards camping. Survivors do gens when killers Camp. They don't have time to do totems too in those instances.
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Incorrect. Survivors reward camping. If a killer is camping, they are in no position to stop totems from getting cleansed.
There is PLENTY of time. Unless literally nobody on your team can run the killer, then it becomes a skill issue, in which case, the old term "git gud" comes into play. Stop blaming your gameplay screwups on everyone else and admit when you're the problem.
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If it can be referred to as a noob perk, so what? Just like borrowed time, unbreakable, decisive and other survivor perks can help give you another chance or make up for a mistake, like clipping a wall in a loop etc or you got hooked and you're getting tunneled, so be it. If what someone said previously, in that NOED consistently is used and rewards bad play, how are they gonna get better without it? Surely using the NOED stabilisers to the point where you can win more without ever using it is more fun than trying to brute force yourself into being better, so of course killers will use it at first. I personally used it alot at the lower ranks because i was matching against purple rank survivors and had a bad time, but now i favour other perks like haunted grounds or make your choice for that slot because i understand how the game works a bit better now. One more NOED post really dosen't change anything its just a vent.
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Lmao I'm a killer main, bud. I think NOED, DS, and adrenaline all need reworks. I'm sorry you have such a narrow view of the players of the game that a person who mains killer can't have a difference of opinion. NOED can be countered by SWF easily enough. They all communicate and keep track of how many totems are left. HOWEVER, it can't be countered nearly as well by solos. That's who NOED ruins. It means everyone is gonna have to spend upwards of 2 minutes, if they're lucky, looking and breaking totems. Then you're going to have people checking for dull totems after all the totems are gone. Which then rewards bad and lazy killers. You can't gen rush a face camper anymore. They're going to have NOED 99% of the time and that's gonna soak up the survivors time instead of doing the gens. NOED needs to be changed to be more like devour and work off a token system. You shouldn't get to one shot everyone just because they powered the exit gates and didn't do every totem on the map. So, think through things a bit harder
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