Saying DS isn't an anti tunnel perk doesnt address any of the many problems this perk has
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Ive been seeing many people on the forums discussing ds being confirmed not to be anti tunnel and just have to say. OK? Ds not being anti tunnel doesnt address any of the problems the perk has when it comes to its imbalance of lockers and gens. A survivor can hop into a locker with ds, head on, and inner strength and end your career. If enduring still counted for all of these stuns I would be perfectly fine with this. I'm not trying to get a nerf to ds. It's great for solo players who get terrorized in this game. I'm just saying something as simple as giving enduring a slight effect on it would even out the playing field alot more. that way both sides would be happy with the change. That way survivors can keep their perk and killers aren't hit with 2 huge stuns in a row.
Edit thanks to @Kebek if it weren't for this comment I would've never made this post.
Comments
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Honestly, I'm all for the Enduring change to be brought back.
It would make DS a lot more managable and would make Enduring more viable. Because right now I only see Enduring used in Aggressive builds where you don't focus on gens and instead only focus on chases.
With that said though.
Eat the DS Stun. It's only 5 seconds, and if you can eat it during the early game, you'll get a much better result during the endgame.
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I get what your getting at, but the problem with DS is that it stays active too long which can reward survivor's with play's they don't deserve (imo)
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you're saying you want enduring to make all stuns less rewarding for the survivors good play? Still at the end of the day if you get unhooked, the killer shouldn't tunnel you and if they do, they get DS'd simple.
Bringing back enduring will make tunneling so much easier, head on would be useless, and pallet stuns would grant you even less distance from the killer.
I don't understand why people don't just eat DS early or just slug and put pressure elsewhere, it's not that hard lol.
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Let enduring only affect DS then? And keep head on stun time the same? Because right now enduring doesn't do anything to head on so it wouldn't be too hard to keep it the exception would it? Getting distance from a pallet from a killer who's using enduring only works if you don't make them break the pallet. I see a LOT of survivors stun the killer then make a beeline straight away from the pallet because they always assume the killer will instantly break it, leading to some of the easiest downs.
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I would make it work like BT, Where it only activates in terror radius, disables on grabs (to stop the locker camping) and last for 40 seconds. I feel 40 seconds would be not too little but also not too long, so when you do legitimately get tunneled you can still use it without it running out but also not stun a killer who hasn't touched you in forever. The idea of the perk is great but it's current state is far too abusable to sustain.
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Personally I want head-on to be affected too since you can't really punish it unless you see them hop into a locker
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Enduring shouldn't work against DS period. Enduring is for pallet stuns, the devs finally got the perk right. When DS was first changed, Enduring caused DS to not have any effect. If a killer is guilty of tunneling and they get DS'ed, they shouldn't have that stun minimized because they had a perk, that is just silly. I'm actually pretty humored by all the DS nerf posts lately. Guys, you seriously need to git gud at killer. You are embarrassing yourself.
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These are two different issues.
People are addressing the fact that DS was never meant to be exclusively an anti-tunnel perk because that is the go-to argument for why it should be gutted. Because it works, even if you aren't tunneled. Which it is supposed to. So clarifying this is in defense of those trying to gut it solely on the basis that they THINK it's an anti-tunnel perk and it performs beyond just basic tunneling.
The fact that people find the perk to be problematic in a multitude of ways is just a secondary conversation that, sure, should be had.
I don't think every perk needs to have a counter for other perks/abilities. For example: it sucks that borrowed time doesn't work against silent killers or freddy in the dream state, but I dont see any threads in this forum about changing BT to account for these disparities. Just like not every map should be changed to accommodate every Killer/survivors, even though some are particularly good/bad for a specific Killer or more killer/survivor sided. Luck of the draw is some of what makes this game exciting, albeit also frustrating.
That said, I wouldn't care if Enduring lowers DS stun time, but it would need to revert back to the 1.2.1 version where there is a secondary stun reduction percentage for "perk" stuns...which was 20%. Meaning a 5 second stun would be 4. And a separate stun duration for palette stuns. Otherwise it would no longer be a perk aimed at reducing palette stuns, but an anti-DS perk. LOL
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Enduring reducing DS stuns was kinda ok when DS could be used on the first down. Reversing the Enduring change would just promote tunneling by giving tunnelers a tool to be more efficient. Definetly not healthy for the game.
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Then the head on player dies for outplaying the Killer (and also not having an actual exhaustion perk). No.
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The perk is honestly fine compared to what it was before. Back then all 4 survivors could use it as a free escape and now I can at least get my BBQ and chili stack. It was nerfed so the chances of getting hit by it by all survivors is really low. It is fine how it is.
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There is still a perk that ~kinda~ counters DS, unless they changed it too: unnerving presence. I've missed DS before because I forget it affects that skillcheck too + I wasn't prepared (also bc I'm boosted)
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iirc that makes the Skillcheck the size of a Great Skill Check. So, it kinda counters it if the player doesn't know how to get Great Skill Checks.
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Unnerving no longer affects DS. It got changed after DS got reworked.
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Ah. Well that sucks.
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Why would you want Enduring to be a tunneling perk?
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I would want Enduring to have more use for general stuns.
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I would want Enduring to work only on pallet stuns.
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Lets just agree to disagree then before this turns into another loop around the forums like most other threads.
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Yes we disagree about what Enduring should do, but we agree that Enduring shouldn't be a tunneling perk. Conflict resolved.
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Enduring shouldn't affect DS. When enduring countered DS you could down a survivor before they landed on the ground.
DS is fine where it is, just slug them or eat it early. DS becomes more powerful as the game continues so just get rid of it early.
All Enduring is going to do is encourage people to tunnel someone to death at 5 gens because they dont have to respect DS anymore.
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90% of your posts are you crying about huntress. And your saying ds needs a buff? The only person embarassing themselves here is you. If you happen to dodge those hatches which is incredibly easy on most maps and even easier on inside maps. Huntress is a slow m1 killer. Even with locker loading perks and infantry belt getting away isn't hard at all. Iri head is a problem when it comes to new players. But if you have a lick of experience dodging hits or hiding the match is wayyy easier.
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"DS isn't an anti tunnel perk so killers can stop complaining about it"
"If we buff enduring to make it affect ds, then people will tunnel"
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so going in a locker and dsing the killer is good play or a stun? you know you can stun by pressing space wow so cool such good plays
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I agree, but are we on the same page why these statements aren't contradictory?
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It's stupid semantics. DS can be considered an anti tunnel perk as it does punish tunneling. If it didn't then people wouldn't be complaining that a buff to Enduring would promote tunneling. Does DS do more than just stop tunneling? Yes of course it has a lot of things it does which is why the perk is so damn good. So if someone views DS as an anti tunnel perk and if someone views it as not an anti tunnel perk i don't think either of them are wrong
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I cry about huntress because she has so many advantages that the other killers don't have. A ranged killer put in with hitboxes appropriate for all other killers and was always bad but now dedicated servers makes it even worse. At some point her lullaby was changed to be omnidirectional which is grossly unfair because you need a sense of direction with a ranged killer. How can you hide with a large omnidirectional lullaby? I am not asleep, I should be able to discern where the sound is coming from. Hillbilly's chainsaw is directional, why is Huntress special? Nurse's screech is also directional. And how are you dodging hatchets when you can literally turn the corner, be half way down the wall and still get hit? Pallets and windows? A good huntress cocks the hatchets and awaits for the vault animation so you are always hit. You managed to dodge 3 hatchets? She has 2 left to down you.
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I'll admit. The hitboxes need tweaking. I'll give you that one. When dedicated servers actually work it takes no effort to dodge them. Almost every survivor runs spine chill now so the lullaby wont matter. Huntress is also terrible when it comes to gen pressure. Try to get a OoO jockey to walk hug. That's how I counter her.
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It wouldn't be problematic if you play around it. Don't tunnel. Pay attention to when a survivor was last hooked. Slug. Pressure the group and not just one survivor. Eat DS early if the opportunity presents itself to remove it from play.
Like seriously it's not that hard to beat DS.
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Fun Fact: DS got buffed back when Enduring effected all stuns because Enduring made the DS stun timer barely over a second. The fact that when Enduring got changed they didn't revert the buff baffles me. I agree that Enduring should effect all stuns again, just make pallet stuns the same but give a reduced amount for other stuns.
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Personally I don't have an issue with how long it is, depending on how good you are at looping and how many pallets are left a tunnel person can last 50-60 seconds. I do like the Terror Radius idea too change it into an anti tunnel perk.
Edit: It would have too be killer proximity, not Terror Radius, because otherwise stealth killers or those who use insidious would cancel it.
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I have to ask...how is being able to USE the perk bad? From every complaint I hear about DS, it's "I can't IGNORE the perk". Thing is, you actually can. There are many ways to do so. Why should a perk be balanced around "I can't make it unable to be used"? This is literally the argument I am hearing. The stun isn't that long, in some instances you can actually down the person right after their DS.
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Don't tunnel isn't an arguement to ds when 2 survivors can have ds at the exact same time. Also. Ds isn't meant to be anti tunnel so you cant just say don't tunnel. And don't forget ds can be ran with unbreakable so in some cases you either eat the ds and get body blocked to hell or you don't and they run off. Also to be bodyblocked
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The main problem I have a decisive strike at least with me anyway isn't when I tunnel if I tunnel I get hit with it that's my fault.
It isn't the locker trick vectric has counterplay especially if you're someone like Trapper or Amanda as the former can just trap the locker screwing you over when you try to leave and the letter can literally just let your reverse bear trap timer tick down whilst you hide in the locker.
It's the people who normally go for generators totems or hook saves with the full knowledge that decisive strike would bail them out. I'm sure you've already been victim to the hit a healthy survivor who's working on a gen only for them to just continue working on it whilst you're in the hit cooldown and pop it in your face if I choose to grab that survivor instead decisive strike. Same thing goes with hook and totems
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Can't they just make it so as soon as the person rescued touches a gen/totem//chest/exit gate DS runs out immediately? And increase the overall timer to 90 secs to make up for it maybe?
I don't care if they jump into lockers or waste their time inefficently as long as they can't help the game progress while "feeling tunneled".
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Im pretty sure you're aware of the enduring + spirit fury combo, the combo that allows you to play loops like you have negative IQ. DS is balanced, the perk just costs you more near endgame so get rid of it early.
And if you cant keep track of who you recently hooked, getting DS'd is entirely your fault. If you know the survivor has DS, why are you opening the locker? Just leave and pressure someone else.
And since you are implying getting a good stun with a pallet is so braindead, killers that mindgame and get hits using their WASD keys and mouse are pretty braindead too. If you get hit by any stun in this game it was most likely your fault.
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Reducing the time however makes it easier to tunnel as killer. It's difficult to get the right balance, but imo the good overweights the harm.
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LOL never have i ever said it was braindead stop putting words in my mouth firstly i was talking about that guy's point of how its a good play now tell me if you have lets see a survivor with ds and unbreakable youll have to ignore them for 60 SECONDS 60 seconds you see and if you slug theyll get back up and you brought up the build spirit fury and enduring firstly they mostly will have dead hard so yeah and secondly you can drop pallets early af and never get hit and 2 perks are useless and killers open lockers cause some survivors fake having ds yes it happens and if you get a good survivor and they ds you they might make the chase take from 20 seconds to 4 minutes this perk is much better than back then back then youll have to hook the other people fast and maybe get dsed by the the obssesion and now no worries but no all 4 survivors can have it and still ds you which is a 5 seconds stun and maybe 3-5 seconds to catch up theyll probably run to a pallet and loop you there for 12-19 seconds and you wasted a lot of time do you get my point? if you make an amazing play as a killer you get outplayed by a perk not skill a perk do you still not understand how many mistakes survivors can get away with and if they have dead hard adreanlaine or unbreakable what can you do killer as no such perks like these maybe gen stopping perks but they dont help in chases
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just saying dont tunnel isnt enough this perk is so damn strong and in endgame its lowkey depressing and the problem with it now is that 4 people can use it 20 seconds if used from 4 people you literally get outplayed by a perk and thats just sad and having 60 seconds of immunity is way too much in my opinion make the timer 30 or 40 but it can be used more than once yeah the stun will be bad and all but it will really stop tunneling just my opinion
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I'd be fine with this, I am a killer main though, also i dont think DS itself is that bad my bigger issue is with how many second chance perks survivors have and when they're stacked together they just feel so cheap. They made a point of when they nerfed ruin that they changed ruin into what it is today because they didnt want it to stack with other killer slowdown perks like pop, so why shouldnt survivor perks get the same treatment.
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LOL people... stop with this "immunity" crap.
First it was "DS is anti-tunnel the devs said so" which was a lie.
Now you all jump on this "immunity" thing. Which is also a lie because they can still be slugged or mori'd. That's not "immunity". How many times are you going to move the goalpost before you admit it was YOUR FAULT if you got hit by DS?
Don't tunnel. Don't just pick up survivors like a bot without thinking first. I played 8 games the other night, at red ranks, every game had at least 2 DS. Wanna know how many times I got hit by DS? ZERO. Becuase I didn't tunnel, and if I suspected they had DS I would slug them for about 15 seconds. That's all you gotta do. You're not going to have more than 1 DS active at any given time during a normal game. If more than 1 is active at the same time, then you are dominating the survivors anyway.
It's so easy to play around it's seriously laughable.
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There's counterplay to that as well. It's called lunging, not grabbing. It takes 16 seconds to fully heal a health state in most situations without any killer perks(that are commonly used) that make healing harder, I think the least amount of time that takes is 8 seconds and that's if you had inner strength, broke a totem previously to being hooked, and didn't heal from it. 60 seconds is a very small amount of time, in all honesty, I've had tons of times where I barely got anything done and the killer was right on my ass, right as my DS ran out. You have to account for the time it takes traveling the map, being healed, etc, so the chance of a FULLY HEALTHY player having DS and unhooking in your face, would have to be extremely slim. If they're NOT fully healthy, all you need to do is lunge at them and they're downed, and your person on the hook is still on the hook, or may have gotten off, but that's still one down and another in chase. If they ARE fully healthy, you have two potential targets to chase, the one you just lunged at who is now injured, and the one who just got off the hook(though I'd consider that a dick move). I don't see how this is a problematic situation at all.
Only if the timer pauses while in the downed state. Otherwise you're just nerfing it for the sake of nerfing it. DS already has extremely clutch timing if not used aggressively. Btw, allowing multiple uses would make end game stronger, as then you couldn't use the CURRENT COUNTER of getting rid of it early. Your idea without my suggestion would just make people use it aggressively more.
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Well I never said you said it was braindead, I was trying to say how you implied that it was braindead. Also DS + Unbreakable is strong but only once. If they unbreakable they will no longer have it but they'll have DS, and if they got to unbreakable then their DS is practically useless. If they DS you because you forgot you hooked them within 60 seconds or something, all they have is unbreakable, which will be rendered useless as there is no reason to be slugged if you have no DS or if the killer is trying to get a 4k near the end of the game or just being a dick.
I still don't understand why people think dead hard is op, just assume they have it and bait the dead hard and get the hit, it's not hard. If they are dead harding to pallets maybe hit them before they get into range of the pallet? Also killers like clown and Doc which force you to drop pallets early are essentially stronger now since the pallet desert update. Survivors have to conserve and try not to greed pallets before having to finally drop them, It's kind of a dumb update when you have a 2 perk combo that allows you to ignore pallets and get an eventual hit and killers like clown and doc exist, forcing you to drop all 5 pallets in the map during a chase. So if running Enduring and Spirit fury isnt worth, DS + Unbreakable isn't either. There aren't many matches where everyone gets slugged, so Unbreakable isn't worth running, however it is very impactful when the perk works, and you can recover your team. Enduring + Spirit fury is hold W and you get a free hit/down, atleast with DS you have to land a skill check. That combo is pure aids in chase, they both help you with chases so idk why you think killers dont have perks to help them in chase like survivors do.
You say that DS was better to deal with back then, but it got reworked cause generally killers thought it was op, which it was. Now DS is balanced and people want the perk to be unpopular and tunneling will become popular and killers will turn the other cheek. And what decent killer opens a locker when the unhooked person went in there? LOL, while there is a chance, why take the risk when you know that player has DS and you're 99% sure? Keep mental notes of who you hooked so you don't have to worry about it, or like i said, GET RID OF IT EARLY.
And for the record most killer mains want all of the survivor meta perks to be gutted. Adrenaline is an end-game perk, so if the survivors make it to endgame they deserve the huge reward that Adrenaline gives you, Devour Hope rewards you for not playing like a dick so it's fair. BT is balanced, just dont hit the unhooked person and go for the unhooker, sometimes hook diving is necessary, just because a survivor does it when it's not needed doesnt make them toxic, it becomes a 1 for 1 which usually isn't worth, unless it's a facecamper. Dead Hard, doesn't even work half the time because dedi servers, just wait it out or hit them before they get near a pallet.
DS is fine where it is, as much as I don't like Tru3, sometimes in his gameplay he will eat DS early so he doesn't have to deal with it endgame, maybe killers should start doing that so it doesn't ######### them over late game.
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no just no that way too long
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and if you think clown is good uninstall the game and you can easily go to the other side of the loop to not get shocked by the doc
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and you put words into my mouth. I never said he was good, I just said he was essentially buffed. You're being passive aggressive for no reason at all.
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DS isn't a good play. Its barely even a play. It activates for free after you are hooked, and then you just have to make an easy skill check and then you have 5 seconds to get to safety, which most likely will be that close for a survivor. Enduring should work against it.
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No it shouldn't. DS should be respected at certain times, and if you know a survivor has DS ask yourself "Can I afford this stun right now?" and play accordingly. Making Enduring work against DS will make the perk useless and if will ruin its anti-tunnel function.
If you can't remember who you hooked in the past 60 seconds that's on the killer, not the survivor.
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The DS animation itself already eats up 1.2 seconds of the stun. In reality the survivor gets a 3.8 second headstart on the killer, not 5. How much further do you want to reduce that?
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Man I'm really sad how many upvotes you got. Just shows how many ignorant people are on this forum. I'll put this simply so you and your ilk can understand it:
The DS timer doesn't activate when you are being tunneled. A survivor shouldn't be able to be tunneled through DS just because another survivor was unhooked while their DS was active, this suggestion makes no sense and is just an idea entitled killers crowd around like moths to a flame.
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