Saying something is Boring is just an excuse
Now, I am aware this thread will be heavily criticized, and the usual people who uses the word will take the most offense to it, but I feel the need to address this as it has gotten to the point where people are beginning to outright dismiss each other purely simply due to the fact that they find certain killers and perks to be fun against while others do not.
But of course, I have some bias here. Which I would like to address first. I'm a Spirit Main and my brother is a Freddy Main. Previously I was also a Doctor main and I also play Pig and Huntress. I play to win, I play to be as optimally as possible, and because of that, I play as "boring" as possible to secure kills and sacrifices. I do the same whenver I play Survivor, and I use the most optimal build and tactics for that side as well.
Right then, looks like we have a new topic of the month fellas! And oh boy, is it spicy! I'm seeing a lot less posts about nerfing Perks or Killers because they are "Overpowered" now, oh no, I'm now seeing them say that those certain killers and perks are now "boring" to go up against.
Why is that I wonder? Hmm, is it because of the "ever-changing meta"? Nooo! It can't be! But maybe...?
Right, let me just be straight immediately here. I don't care if you find certain things about DBD boring, I mean half of Survivor is holding M1 on a generator while the other half is being stuck on a hook because you lost a chase, I get it, it can get pretty dull. There's a reason some people prefer playing Killer despite how more stressful it can possibly get.
BUT! Regardless on whether or not that is the case, you cannot just ask for changes just because you personally find that something to be boring to you or others. Asking for nerfs to something you find boring is downright unreasonable, because you're literally asking for something to be changed to be unusable and unplayable so you don't have to see that thing be played against you over and over. That isn't exactly fair to people who like playing as and with those things though, is it?
Can there be changes made to them to make them better? There can be, but those changes needs to never compromise their usage. Because otherwise, something else will replace their place, and the cycle repeats itself. That's why you cannot just nerf perks that are meta or killers that are meta. Purely because something else will always replace it. People will always find new perk combos, new killers, and new add-on combos that has a more "boring" playstyle because they play to win.
If something is boring, to me that is just an excuse. But, I don't fault people for thinking that because as everyone has always said, the meta is stale. You'll always face the same Killers, the same Perks, the same Survivor cosmetics even. Because anything to give you an advantage is a welcome one. And facing the same things over and over again can make you overly critical about it, it can turn into an obsessive mindset where you try to find any flaw in the system and repeat that over and over again because you got so bored facing that one thing, that you think other players who play as that thing or other players who like playing against that thing "Are just wrong! There's no way they could be correct, I know I'm right because my experiences said so! How can anyone have fun playing as and against this thing?" Isn't that right, fellas?
To me, the best thing to do is to make non-meta perks have more usage. This way, if there is more of a variety on meta perks, more Killers might find better and viable strategies on other killers, making them more fun to play for more people. Giving you more variety to face and play as on both sides. There are some perks that has a great effect, but they are too situational and sometimes you might not even get any use out of it (cough Deliverance cough).
If you have a problem with a killer, or a perk, or the way a Survivor plays, maybe take some time to self reflect on your own performance first. Because the only reason something is boring is when you got nothing to do. And when you feel like you can't do anything. But have you ever taken a step back and realize what got you to that point in the first place? I personally doubt it if you're giving someone crap for saying they have fun for playing against something you personally don't have fun against.
Fun is subjective, and it should never be the reason something gets changed. Unless of course, there is an objective balance reason behind it, then I'm all for it. But without that, but I'm sorry, but saying something is boring is just another excuse.
You're not going to win every game, and not every match will be fun. But suck it up, this is an online game, not everyone will give you the time of your life with every match.
Comments
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I don't think the base premise of "Saying boring is an excuse" even makes sense. An excuse for what? Losing? You can win and still be extremely bored. If you're bored, you're bored.
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People say boring or unfun in hopes to get a low key nerf.
The doctor was not fun but his nerf turned into a buff lol
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I think what they're trying to say is that something being boring isn't a good enough reason to call for balance changes to it, because boredom is subjective. I think OP's idea that people tend to become bored in games when they feel helpless, and therefore that "X is boring" could be seen as a cop-out to avoid thinking more critically about what they could do to counter X and so not be so bored playing against them, does hold some weight. That being said, if "X is boring/unfun" is an opinion held by the vast majority of players, that's almost certainly indicative of some more serious error in design, not necessarily the players simply being too lazy to make their own fun.
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I wouldn’t exactly say an excuse but some players simply just don’t find some killers fun to play as and against. We all have our personal bias on what killers we find fun and who we don’t.
An example is that I am so drained and oversaturated going against Doctor. He’s the main killer I’ve gone against for the past few months and it gets old playing against the same killer over and over and over again.
Balance wise I think a majority of the killers are fine but some just don’t have exciting or fun playstyles that a majority of the playerbase likes facing. That’s why most players like facing Demogorgon and most players hate Freddy. Just two vastly different styles but one is more enjoyable than the other.
But as you said fun is subjective and not the reason to change anything.
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I believe it means that the argument that some people make: "I think that X should be removed because I find it boring to play against" is not valid because it only considers the feelings of the person making the argument and not if "X" is objectively good or bad for the game.
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Yeah you can start by bringing back old Freddy.
RIP Fedora man
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Here is a thread from not long ago. The opening post in the thread i'm linking to, wants to nerf Freddy due to finding them boring as part of their reasoning and always seeing Freddy after Freddy using the same meta build.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/156912/freddy-needs-a-nerf-to-fix-how-boring-he-is/p1
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He's not wrong though.
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Honestly I wouldn't even mind that. Have him be able to be played as either old Freddy or reworked Freddy at the same time. Maybe through an add-on. It would add alot more variety when facing him. Maybe have them be combined together as a compromise.
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Basically yeah, what Fibijean and SirCracken has said. I just think if you're going to ask for changes, out of all the possible reasons you could come up with, that thing being "boring" to go up against is not a valid reason to change said thing. Certain playstyles (and I mean for both sides) can be boring for some, but it also can be fun for others too.
But it has gotten to the point where in this forum alone, I've seen people doubt others why they find certain playstyles fun to go up against. Like SERIOUSLY questioning them. And that's why I made this thread, because fun is subjective, and to treat your own bored experience as a natural fact is just wrong. Does something need to be changed so that one thing is more universally fun for everyone? Yeah, definitely. But saying that it needs to be changed because you yourself are bored of facing them is just plain wrong.
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By that logic, saying that old moonwalking Legion was boring was just an excuse, a cop out. I don't think you could convince anybody of that one.
Saying that something is boring is an opinion. There a handful of killers in this game that I find boring to play as even if they're strong and I win handily. There are a handful of killers that I find boring to play against even if, again, I normally win with a semi-decent team. Where's the excuse when winning? Where's the cop out?
Some people could try to use boring as an excuse, sure. However, saying that in general boring=excuse, that's really an excuse to close-mindedly discard an argument.
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Moonwalking Legion was an ACTUAL Exploit and had to be changed, because there was literally nothing you can do against that.
What I am trying to say is this, you shouldnt change something because it's "boring", even if a lot of the community says the same thing.
Balance wise you want to create something that isn't overpowered, but also doesn't feel unplayable to use. It also still needs to be fun for someone to play even if using that thing doesnt fit everyone or the majority's playstyle.
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is not actually, going agaisnt legion oftenly provokes me desires of uninstalling the game tbh nothing less boring the same with huntress VPN laggers etc.
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Yeah i bring up the thread, just to show. That yeah, you sometimes see the reasoning something is boring and that why it needs to be change brought up. Which is not the best reasoning, since one person can find something boring and another person find it fun. Now it being overpowered, broken or something else along these lines. Now that reasoning would be far more reasonable. Since it making the point of view from a balance stand point. Which could be easier to make a case for why something should or should not be changed. Since one can always collect data or show how broken or overpowered something is. By say linking to a video to show off how good a combo is. Record themselves using said things. Like say old legion and certain add ons.
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I'd go back to old Freddy's kit and improve it. But that will never happen, they'll just nerf him until he's weak and boring like Legion.
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Well I know one thing that needs changing with new Freddy:
Very fun game.....
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The thing is people do use "boring" as an excuse to DC or as an argument to get something they don't like changed. In most cases, they aren't even actually BORED they are FRUSTRATED, but use "boring" almost as a slur. Like boring is when nothing happens and you're not engaged. Frustrating is when you are engaged and the game is progressing, you just don't enjoy it.
Sorry I just don't buy a lot of "this is boring" crap because majority of it is actually just the person being frustrated. Then they DC and cite "boring" as a reason, ruining the game for everyone else. If you find yourself playing DBD and saying "this is boring" so much, then don't ######### play the game.
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I think people can agree that stacking slowdown perks on top of each other is a valid complaint against Freddy. No one likes facing Forever Freddy's, I don't even think my brother would defend that build because it's basically the same as Iridescent Head + Infantry Belt with NOED, Iron Maiden, Whispers and Pop.
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❌ "This Killer is boring to play against"
✔️ "This Killer has unfair advantage and I can't do anything about it"
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What they need to do with Freddy is move a lot of the stuff in his base kit to his add-ons. Here is a short list:
- Oblivious in Dream World
- Snap Clap action timer penalty for each use
- Appearing intermittently between X and Y distances
They also need to change the way clocks work. Something like, for every 30 seconds asleep a new random clock becomes available to use along with the previous one.
Then they can actually increase the strength of some things because now it's in add-on form.
As for the slow down effects there needs to be some downsides to equipping these add-ons. Maybe his gen teleport takes longer to recharge or he loses Dream Tokens (for snares and pallets). Then you can equip them to increase slowdown but lose some map pressure or chase potential in the process.
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What they need to do with Freddy is reduce the slowdown in certain perks, or switch the base power to dreams pallets and add-on power with snares.
I dont want him to be nerfed that hard.
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Maybe they just need to rework the rope add-ons, because while yes it only adds 9 seconds, combine that with the Forever Freddy build and it adds up a lot.
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Most rank one killers are like that though, how many matches do you win against lower ranked killers a day ?
You are not going to win many matches regardless against ranked one killers but do to the awful match making of current or just the lack of killers how many matches do you steam roll a rank 10-15 ish killer ?
I know I win most of mine against said killers.
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Personally Freddy is boring. Does that mean he needs a full on nerf? Absolutely not. The only thing I truly find boring is snare spam and swing chains, so maybe buff his snare size and effect length but make it take 10 seconds or so before its activated.
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Killers i find boring are freddy, clown, deathslinger, spirit and doctor but only one I think is actually op is freddy
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I find playing against legion to be boring every single time. Who enjoys mending for the whole match?
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And that's totally fair. It only becomes invalid in my opinion, when you use that as grounds to nerf or change him. You can create an argument on how to make him more fun, but it has to still be fun for the Killer and it shouldn't hinder their ability to be able to kill survivors if the player using them is good enough.
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I can't agree with OP because the whole point of multiplayer games is being fun. If you have something that is not fun or affects the fun of other parts of the game, as a designer you have to take it into account for change it.
Also a gameplay element doesn't need to be strong to be unfun to play against. It's the developer job to look after this kind of things players complain about. The devs have the neutral point of view, it is not about follow the community instructions but listen to the complains and think wich are legit. They have objective data to reason each decision they take.
If 50% of the player base doesn't like a certain mechanic, maybe is not a mechanic suited for the game. Doesn't mean that it has to be an unfun mechanic but it has to be cohesive with the rest of the game. That's the reason some players get bored of certain mechanics without being bored with the game. If you have mechanics that aren't cohesive with the rest of the game, you can have a situation where some players like the core of the game but aren't happy with some updates. It can be ok to have noncohesive mechanics but it's dangerous to use them every where because they are meant to add variety.
I agree that variety is a big problem of this game in a lot of areas.
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Same exact thing for OP.
Saying something is OP is just an excuse.
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While I do agree that just saying a killer is boring isn't a good excuse to change a killer, it all depends on the reason why people are saying said killer is boring. Like I'm assuming this post is referring to my Freddy post in which you commented on. But 2 points I want to make real quick: I never said I wanted Freddy flat out nerfed (which is why I put it in quotation marks) & my reasoning as to why he is boring for me is because I rarely encounter a Freddy playing with a different playstyle. This is why I was saying I understand the hate Freddy gets from the community.
The people he is most frustrating to are solo survivors. Solos lack the coordination needed to handle a good Freddy (& more often than not the skill). Every time I am up against a Freddy, I alter my playstyle to be more hidden & very gen focused. But almost never can I beat him because my team can't help me in getting gens done. Which poses 2 things that could be changed: changing Freddy in some way that reduces how strong he can be against solos or by buffing solos. And what I deduced from my matches against Freddy is nearly all of them run the BBQ & Pop combo & can screw over a gens progress significantly compared to most killers. He is good in that he can put up a fight against the strongest SWFs, but he makes the solo experience miserable. And when you encounter Freddy significantly more than any killer almost every day it begins to get tiring having to go up against that same playstyle over & over again. Which is why I also hate that survivors are so dead locked on running meta perks, as they are only really defined by which exhaustion perk they chose most of the time with no unique playstyle.
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And as a quick additional note, I know when to admit that I am not playing well against a killer. But the fact that I still generally lose no matter how well I play against a Freddy is very discouraging. Unless the Freddy isn't good at applying pressure or I manage to get a solo team that's very competent (which isn't the case a good amount of times), I am basically going into the match believing I won't escape.
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Yeah, I think fun should not be taken fully into account when discussing balance
With that said, I still hate playing as Freddy
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I've seen the "boring" excuse get brought up for several killers after I steamroll a team with them. Alot of people said it when I was playing and practicing Deathslinger, I've had ppl say it against Bubba (told me to use a killer that takes skill after I 4ked the team with only 1 gen done. Multiple hooks in each), Ive had ppl say I was using boring perks on my Legion since I used slowdown perks even though the game itself was under 10 minutes.
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Gotta love when people tell you to use a Killer that takes skill when playing as BUBBA.
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Yeah solo survivor is like a coin flip. You might get good team mates or boosted animals. Which with how broken matchmaking is. Hopefully the new system, will be much better.
Sounds like these teams were salty they lost. Which reminds me of a game i was in as a survivor not long ago. Where the Oni player did very well and basically snowball, leading to a short and quick match. One survivor basically threw every bad word in the book against the killer. Like the more you saw this person speak, the more clear it was, they had very little understanding about Oni as a killer. Like i had to side with and defend the killer. Due to the nonsense one survivor was throwing at the killer, who won fair and square. For somehow this single survivor could not understand, why a Oni might slug.
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The Bubba game was great, because while one survivor was going off on me...one of their own teammates told em to STFU. Pretty sure I ended up friending that guy.
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That just makes the story even better.
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I've been playin ALOT of Bubba lately. Its just fun to be able to screw over teams using what many consider the weakest killer in the game. That moment of panic when they think I'm gonna M1 them through a pallet and I instead bring up that saw. You can tell they realized they screwed up as they frantically try running back to the pallet that I'm not body blocking.
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That's not necessarily true! I don't find survivor boring because because it's not as interactive as killer. Now a mechanic that I find boring as killer is looping, I mean sure survivor's should be able to loop, it's the fact that majority of the killer roaster is vulnerable to looping and have to resort to the same tactic.
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I would agree that most people misuse the word boring pretty much like OP.
But i think there are certain things that are justified being called boring or unfun.
Indoor Maps for the majority of killers.
If you talk about boring in the context of killers,then it's usually meant for killer with very little interaction.Clown would be a good example.The only thing you do against him is trying to go to the next loop if he's using his bottles or use the pallet early.
Which is why i'm really excited for his rework
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Some people use the word “boring” because they want to criticise something but don’t want to be challenged on their opinion. “Boring” is subjective, it can’t be argued with because every person finds different things boring. Calling something “boring” is noncommittal, you don’t have to back up your opinion with any arguments so it’s an easy cop out.
That said there’s stuff that’s legitimately boring in this game, and if people want to complain about things being boring then fine. I’m gonna play what I enjoy and if others find it boring then that sucks for them.
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ppl claim playing against freddy is boring but have "fun" against piggy who is basically just an M1 killer at it's core with mostly predictable chases.
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A couple things that are boring right now for me:
Legion spam
S tier killers doing 30 meter loops on hooks and then saying bro I wasn't camping (is it omg survivors are so dumb or you are lazy looking for easy kills/bps?)
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Boring is a perfectly fine thing to change certain stuff in the game around. A game by design is meant to be fun, pvp or not. Hell, a game being boring is worse than a game being BAD. I'm a killer main and it's not unfair to say certain killers are boing to play against just as much as some killers are play as. They should be changed on the fact that the interaction with them is detrimental to the fun of the match just as much as certain factors of the game should be changed to negate the absolute boredom those factors bring in.
There is no excuse for being bored. Thats' not on the players, it's on devs. Players utilized the best tools they have at hand because of dominant game theory and all that. Although I do agree that it like all critcism in this game it can be used to try and influence devs to needlessly nerf certain things in the game and while I do feel what you sare saying about the meta. We forget that the meta can be absolutely full of bollocks and rightly called boring among other things. Lest we not forget that old DS was the meta which was basically a free down body armor perk back then.
And one of the common cirticism and complaints about the match from the obsession in every match was that no one will chase them and in fact treated the obsession as if they were effectively invisible even when they ran up to the killer face because no killer wanted to deal with instant, nearly always confirmed DS.
Loops are boring. We should have more stuff in the maps and japes. It's not subjective, if you find loops run. Go play a spinning top. You'll be entertained for hours and you won't even had to deal with perk builds. Camping at a hook is boring. Have to wiggle on hook is boring and I think the devs agree because PH update seems to be expirementing with changes to all this stuff. If only PH himself.
but as a rule devs tend to expirement bigger changes on a new killer before considering changing anything about base in such a big way.
I do agree that a lot of the frustrations is a part of the game though. Same with meta. same with perks. Same with killers. You kind of got to take DBD like you take Xcom. Just like when you miss a 90% alien in the face...you got to also sometimes face someone going to DS you or a killers going to mori you. Shrug your shoulders and say "That's DBD, baby"
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Before I go on my small rant, I would like to state that I believe the most fun part of Dead by Daylight is being in a chase, or more specifically, interacting with the other side.
I believe there are three things that people can mean through saying that something in DbD is "boring"
- If something is boring as a mechanic, it's mostly because the mechanic is very uninteractive for one or both sides. (a serious game or character design issue that should be looked into by the devs)
- If a certain player has a certain playstyle and/or build that makes it very unfun for the other side, a good example would be Forever Freddy or a Blendette hiding so much that the killer never sees her for the entire match. (if it comes to builds, the devs can tweak values, but in the end it all depends on the player, and the devs just can't force someone to play differently)
- Actual personal bias or just some salt in the endgame chat. (not really worth considering, since it's just salt)
You're playing sweaty? You do you, the devs can't forcefully change someone's playstyle.
Forever Freddy drags the game out so much to the point survivors would just rather kill themselves than try to repair a gen with 4 different slowdown effects and Freddy's pop? The devs can in fact tweak the values a little, or do something that would encourage Freddy to have a more aggresive playstyle.
A killer, a survivor perk or a map provide very one-sided and/or uninteractive gameplay for either side, because the mechanics behind it are inherently flawed? For example:
- Spirit gives little to no feedback to survivors when phasing, while she gets much more of it, leading to very one-sided chases without much counterplay for the survivor side. It feels uninteractive, because the only thing the survivor can do against a decent Spirit is just guess, and try to win the coinflip.
- The Deathslinger can cancel his power without drawbacks, being able to "mindgame" survivors without doing anything. He can also quickscope, which doesn't give the survivor any time to react and try to dodge if they aren't psychics that can see 2 seconds into the future or something. It all depends on whether the guy misses or doesn't miss, and barely on survivor actually using his skill to dodge or bait a shot.
- Survivors dead-harding for distance to get to a pallet/window feels really uninteractive for the killer, because it straight up erases all mistakes that survivor made in a chase. Decisive Strike granting survivors a 60 second immunity and allows such situations (video embedded) to happen. It's not fun for the killer side, and it's not very interactive either.
- Regarding maps, I think a good example of a map commonly disliked by the community is Hawkins. When you're playing killer, it's a simulator of going through 80 pallets on the map, and easily downing survivors without even having to think, because 90% of these pallets are so unsafe that they're basically not helping survivors at all. For survivor, it feels like no matter how good you are, you're most likely going to go down quickly, unless you're in the proximity of the only three decent looping spots on the map. This map doesn't really offer thrilling chases, where each side gets to actually compete with their skills, and that makes the gameplay boring.
That's something that devs most likely should look into, and try to tweak the values or rework the mechanic in some way, to make the experience more fun in the game for both sides.
It's simply easier to say that something is "boring", rather than writing a full esaay on the issue, so I'm sorry if that ever created an misunderstanding on my part, as I do call some things "boring" quite a lot in this game. For the sake of my own convenience I will keep doing that though.
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I don’t see the issue with “forever Freddy” They actually made his slowdown add-ons individually garbage already to nerf it and it was BEFORE the ruin nerf. Survivors gonna complain about nonsense absurd things regardless of what gets nerfed. Something is alwasy gonna be “BorINg” to play against because if they are trash, they can’t do nothing against it and end up being on the hook which is indeed boring.
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Well yeah, I've said this like 20 times on this forum. "Boring" is just code for "I want to complain but without any discussion".
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Why take away the option to say you are bored?
I play this game to have fun, and there are a few killers I think is very boring to go up against.
Doctor: I always dc'ed before the penalty, because I just hate to play against him, he is the definition of "no fun" for me. Why, because, you can't stealth, you can't use pallets, or vault. And even without addons, he is so strong. He is also the only killer that can see you on the ground from a distance, without perks, via his illusions, and if you are in tier 3 madness, you also scream from time to time. And try to be saved by Borrowed Time, it is also ok, as long as you don't get into that tier 3 madness, and miss a single skillcheck, because, then you don't have time to mend. Thats most of the things I think why Doctor is so unbalanced. It doesn't even take a good doctor to kill the moral of the team, just hit those gens. Maybe im more annoyed than bored against doctor.
I took a match with him, against a full red team, to see for how long I could drag the game out. I used Unnerving presense, Overcharged, Huntress Lullaby and Distressing. Then I found my hex totem, and patrolled those 3 gens around it. I didn't kill anyone, And I could keep them off the gens for 25 minutes, even hooked 3 of them. I didnt go into any chases, just patrolling my gens and totem.
I love to go up against a good huntress (Not one-shot hatchets), even though i get killed, but I like to see skilled players destroy a team. Demogorgon is also great fun, as I think he is very equal, have map pressure, and can take down survivors.
I play both sides, and I try to have fun, and try to provide fun. Also try to stay out of toxic chats, and most of the time, the chat ends with some kind words about wishing eachother good luck and having fun in the next game.
Don't say I can't be bored in a game, where I know from the start we don't stand a chance, or we stand a chance but it will take 20 minutes to complete the game, and if he gets one, then it is pretty much game over, on top of that, then he took a mori with him in, which is totally fine, against our two flashlights and a key.
The game should be fun, and if the killer or the survivors decide it shall not be fun for the other side, then by all means take those 5 minutes a day in penalty and get a game you enjoy, instead of being bored.
Everyone have fun, and good games out there. And hopefully less toxicity :D
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"I don't care if you find certain things about DBD boring"
Then why should anyone care what you have to say?
"You're not going to win every game, and not every match will be fun. But suck it up, this is an online game, not everyone will give you the time of your life with every match."
Yeah, and you're not always going to run into killers that are courteous enough to play fairly either. If you like this type of mindset and want it to be the status quo I'm afraid you'll get exactly what you want. Be careful what you wish for.
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I agree that some of the "Freddy is boring" complaints is just cries for nerfs.
There is still some merit though that Freddy matches always play out the same way.
You start the match, you see the sleep timer, instantly know you're playing vs Freddy, and you can suspect he's running BBQ, POP, and either Enduring + Spirit Fury or something else. (Dead Man's Switch is fun with the class photo addon since if anyone falls for the fake blood when you teleport the gen is blocked)
I do think Freddy's addons are mostly really bad. This is coming from someone who loved old freddy for the massive variety in builds you can run on him in combination with his addons like 0 TR Freddy or massive range freddy.
New Freddy's addons are all bleh.
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