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Hard counter to DS?
For reference:
Waiting 60 seconds is not a counter.
Tanking the DS early on is not a counter.
Pyramid head shouldn't be considered one as I shouldn't have to play a killer to counter 1 perk.
Scene as though pop (one of the best killer perks) was given a perk to soft counter it, and with the countless amount of complaints about DS, I thought, "what if we make a perk that directly counters it? Like that one perk with pop.". By the way i'm not trying to make the pop counter and this perk equal in strength, that is not the point.
I can literally see no downsides with adding a perk that directly counters DS.
- Risk, as survivors may not even run DS in the first place.
- We still have BT so tunneling won't become extremely meta.
- Sacrificing one perk slot (out of 4) in comparison to the survivors 16.
- Killers who don't run it now know the risk they are taking and can build their playstyle not having that perk.
I'm absolutely horrible at perk design so I ain't even going to think of a concept. But lets just say "The survivor you are holding cannot interact with skillchecks" is the perk or something like that.
Tunneling is one of the only ways to win against a good team other than relying on their mistakes, that's not opinion that's pretty much proven before anyone shouts "OoOh hE jUsT wAnTs tO tUnNEl, gIT GuD!!!!!11!!1!", so why not allow this sort of playstyle when there still is counters? I just feel like a perk like this really needs to be in the game.
Whats your opinion? Would you have this in the game?
Comments
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Just make Enduring reduce the DS stun again.
Or make Unnerving Presence make the skillcheck smaller again.
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I was just about to bring up unnerving lol
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Literally anything that STOPS you from getting D striked is it's counter. It's an anti tunneling perk, don't feel like dealing with it endgame EAT THE DS, don't feel like getting DS'd wait 60 seconds. DS let's you do bold plays but a 5 second stun against the killer shouldn't stop you from finding them again and downing them again, and killing them. If you want to tunnel then face the possibility of them having DS just like how survivors not cleansing the totems have to face a hypothetical noed. Both of them have counters, each perk has a counter.
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While it technically is a "counter", its a counter that is hurting you in other aspects (such as wasting time).
What I want is a hard counter, something that just completely deletes the perk so I never have to worry about it again. Of course the downside of this is that i'm trading a perk slot for it, but ill happily trade a slot to never worry about DS any day. Btw a 5 second stun can turn my game from a 3k to a 1k, just saying, another life (basically) can cost you a lot especially in the long run.
The thing is I don't want to face DS as the most efficient way of winning against a good squad is tunneling someone down, any other way and i'm relying on their mistakes. That's how I win, and DS is pulling a massive middle finger at me because I want to play efficiently? and actually have a chance against the SWF i'm facing? That's stupid.
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Eat the DS.
It's as simple as that.
And yes, I did read your post. This is in fact a counter.
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I know that you want your 3k and such and tunneling someone down(( which btw sucks for the person who is getting tunneled down)) seems like the only efficient way but there are other ways such as playing respectively and finding someone else and ending a chase easily if you have a basic understanding of mind games. Same can be said with noed btw since most survivor mains complain about having to cleanse 5 totems which only take 14 seconds each. I know time is important but getting ds out of the way when only 1 gen is done isn't going to make a difference unless you are facing an actual god at the game. If it comes down to an endgame you aren't really going to be playing respectively since you are desperate for a kill. I can see why ds can be annoying, but it's (( I know gets annoying to read it again)) an anti - tunneling perk. So it basically punishes camping/tunnelers who want someone dead.
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Want to counter spirit fury + enduring?
Just slam 3 pallets down in their face and make the killer use it on you for a free hit.
(obvious sarcasm)
That is not a counter, nor is the example I stated. Unless you can explain why it's a counter.
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Is a shame for the survivor being tunneled but unfortunately you're wasting too much time finding and chasing a new, possibly healthy survivor. Even if you do mindgame the majority of loops correctly then you've already wasted too much time and more gens will be popping.
Tanking a DS at 4 gens left can have quite an impact, imagine with no DS, a survivor is now on a hook, a different survivor has to save and you can find a new survivor to chase. This happens in about 30 seconds and at the end, only 1 survivor is left working on a gen. While, if I had tanked the DS, I would still be chasing the survivor and all 3 would be on gens in 30 seconds.
NOED is similar, but not comparable as the impact it has on the match is less than the impact of even 2 D strikes.
As you said, it punishes tunnelers, which is an efficient way to play. My point is that I don't think it should do that OR if it does punish tunnelers, then at least provide a hard counter.
Hope you understand me.
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I mean, unless you're playing bubba, DS isn't an issue. When I play Spirit (like 70% of my killer matches) I eat the DS and down them 10 seconds later. No big deal. Applies to most high tier killers, like Huntress, Billy, etc.
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I'd like to think, depending on what kill you run how much DS can impact a game, such as a huntress, spirit, nurse, clown or any other killer that has some nice mobility and or slowing survivors down, (( I main spirit and I have fun with tanking DS then catching them 10 seconds later)) if you are running killers who aren't that efficient at ending chases fast then I can see your point. I read somewhere that DS should be earned like MOM or Deliverance, such as this: Running the killer for an amount of time increases your chance of striking them in a last attempt at escaping, each time you are in a chase with the killer ranging from a 40,50,60 second timer, next time you are unhooked and downed and picked up by the killer you stabbed them with anything in your hand. (( you get what I'm saying here right?))
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There is no counter to ds, plain and simple.
DS by the definition is an anti tunneling perk and it does its job quite well, the problem is it is also a great survivability booster/altruistic perk, as it grants a minute of invulnerability to grabs and pick ups. That invulnerability period is the problem, which is clearly "abused" by smarter survivors.
I really need to post my proposed ds buff that greatly increases anti tunneling capability of that perk at the cost of having an actual counter, passive and active.
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I hit one of these 1-minute countdown timers after unhook to take a suspicious surv right after it
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Eating the ds is not a counter
Waiting is not a counter
Many matches i had survivors escape at the exit gates because i couldn't pick up them
The truth is that without DS, survivors would cry
There's already BT, why would you need DS?
DS should be deactivated as soon as you do a secondary action like heal or repair
Plus
Noed and DS are definitely something not comparable
Only survivors could say something like that, it's stupid
The truth is that DS is WAY MORE than an anti-tuneling perk, survs know that and they don't want to lose it: it's used as a life-insurance to roam around the map doing objectives and healing teammates knowing that you can't be hooked
That's not anti tuneling :)
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I do similar stuff, but I just place my Phone under monitor and launch a clock on it that also has seconds next to it. Easy to mark in mind when it runs out.
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Both are get out of jail free cards, both reward bad players, both have counters even if they aren't the best counters, both waste your time, both have huge impacts, seems PRETTY Comparable if you ask me.
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yeah at least we can cheat that way lol
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NOED's impact isn't that big, it'll probably buy you like one insta down at endgame assuming they are not injured. Then everyone looks for totems or just escapes the moment they see it proc.
Ill try and compare them: The efficient way of playing survivor is rushing gens. NOED does not get in the way until endgame at which it will get the killer an additional kill at most if the survivors play right.
DS on the other hand is constantly a threat throughout the game and denies you the most efficient way of playing with no counter. This is the difference.
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@Blendette_will_Evade NoED is not that strong of a perk, you're giving up the rest of the game being a perk down for a maybe decent effect later on. At most it should only get you one hook if the survivors aren't potatoes. Just break the totem after endgame, and that't only if you want to go for the save. Barely any time used, and its not like its taking away from gen times. You can just ignore it and leave, winning the match. You can't just ignore DS.
Also @Leachy_Jr brings up a lot of valid points as well.
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But you can- Slugging exist and adds pressure forcing someone to come aid there fallen teammate, and Noed can make a 1k to a 4k real quick if the survivors are really altruistic, which red ranks do like coming back for their teammates, it's all about what kind of setup you use with perks, DS by itself is meh for me because the killer can find me again and kill me just like how Noed is a meh, but blood-warden,and unbreakable really pair with these perks . DS to me is fine but if it was nerfed I wouldn't care, just don't make it trash like most perks that get nerfed. I'm worried that it'll not worth bringing in. (( I don't run ds that much unless I wanna do the solo get away build. ))
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Please stop mentioning NOED man
It is not a strong perk, easy avoidable just by losing seconds cleansing a totem
DS just breaks the momentum for the killer..
PS: i'm rank 3 survivor, and i always use DS (you surely know it's one of the most used perks, while NOED's not...guess why)
Me personally i never use NOED
Don't wanna sound rude, you sound like a cool guy, but read too many posts where survs say that DS is ok while in reality they know how broken it is
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And again, eating DS is not a counter, it's a conseguence of DS
Slugging is not a counter, it's a must, or you'll lose tone of pressure mid-end game (the only exception could be at the start of the game, when losing those 5 seconds and all that distance could be less worse)
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Slugging is not a good enough "counter". You're actively giving up stronger pressure to do it while also not making any real progress towards your end goal. DS still hurts you, just a little less. Not a counter. NoED can only turn a 1k to a 4k if the survivors let it, it's a pretty meh perk overall. Pairing it with Blood warden just means you're playing the game with 2 perks, for 2 situational perks at endgame. Also rank doesn't matter. Potatoes are in red ranks.
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For me, I will try to eat DS early game.
DS is super annoying in late game, and sometime a ticket to get out when you down an unhooked survivor near the gate.
But honestly I think Enduring, unnerving presence should not affect the perk. I mean, it activated only Once.
Just make the timer removed if survivors do anything (Gen, totem, chest, sabo, self healing (they will require other to heal them to keep the DS timer)
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If each survivor cleansed a totem that would almost reach the amount of time it takes to do a gen. Survivors main objective is to do a gen, taking a 5 second stun early game doesn't sound so bad if you take into consideration that each totem takes 14 seconds to cleanse. I play killers who have no problem ending chases quickly so I have better experiences with DS. Maybe tha'ts why I'm okay with it?
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Or you can not cleanse, wait until endgame and find the lit totem and only cleanse that one.
Or better, find as many totems as you can, don't cleanse them, then at endgame go back to them totems to see if they lit up. If you only find 3 totems you have a 3/5 chance that one will be lit.
And again, that one second chance that the survivors get with DS can cost you kills. I've seen it happen many times.
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If you think about it, it'd be a 2.5 second stun for DS. 1.5 for Head on so that probably be a buff for enduring which killers probably wouldn't complain about, can't say the same for survivors...
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That isn't a counter and it isn't efficient. Wish it was because it's much more fun not having to tunnel a guy down.
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That's why I eat DS early game so they have nothing to save them endgame :)
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Yeah but then they'd have to let "this is no happening" effect it.
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Unless you're too good at chasing and downing survivors, because then the guy with the still-active DS can unhook in your face and there's nothing you can do about it. It's almost like it's not an anti-tunneling perk at all, but 60 seconds of "killer can't pick me up".
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It was nerfed once, from infinite duration to 60 seconds, but the stun was buffed. Furthermore, the stun was buffed because Enduring used to affect it back when it was 3 seconds, yet when Enduring was nerfed, the stun remained at 5 seconds.
Just laying out some facts.
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Noed isn't nearly as strong as DS. With DS you need to avoid freshly hooked survivors for the ENTIRE round if you want to "counter it" shooting yourself in foot basically. But if it means that DS would be more balanced i'm more than happy to nerf NOED as well. Becouse right now DS is anti tunnel, anti snowball, free immunity for 60 seconds.
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If youre this worried about it youre doing something wrong in your game. You know that if you slug the ds user you SHOULD be chasing someone else right? Standing over them for 60s is an enormous waste of time, but if you slug them and chase someone else thats 2 people not doing gens. If someone goes to get tge slug thats 3 people not doing gens. This is good advice all around whether they have ds or not. If i down someone and see someone else, im chasing that 2nd person most of the time.
Enduring should reduce the stun, unnerving should reduce the skill check zone. Outside of that its really not a problem, bot something id waste an entire perk slot to counter when there are things in game I can do to counter it.
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If they hop in a locker and you dont see another person immediately to chase, eat the ds to remove it from the board. If you leave them in the locker theyre going to go work on a gen anyway, might as well eat the stun. Youll also find theyre much quieter the rest of the match.
Yes thats not a "counter" but I think what everyone is getting at is its really not hard to play around. Ive only eaten 1 ds when i didnt want to in the last few weeks, i just lost track of who had been hooked. Still 4k'd though.
Though to reiterate, enduring should reduce the stun.
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But tunneling someone down is the most efficient way of playing and DS outright prevents that. Especially against a good SWF if you equally hook everyone you will lose unless by some ungodly mistake. You have to tunnel, that's just fact. Getting someone dead early is better than any pressure the killer can put out. That's why i'm doing it.
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Did you not see how the Enduring countering DS situation played out? I wouldn't touch that perk personally. But they can reduce the stun time to 3 seconds if people get THAT mad about it.
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And youll lose. A lot. Im not saying everyone needs to be hooked equally. I am saying you need to pressure as many survivors as possible. Tunneling means youre only pressuring one and occasionally 2 when they go for tge unhook. Those survicors that arent pressured are doing gens. Slugging someone and chasing someone else means there are now 2 people not doing gens.
Dont get me wrong. Priorities matter. If theres 2 gens left and you have the choice to chase a person you havent hooked yet or someone that you have hooked, go at the one thats been hooked. But if you chase 1 person and one person only you're only going to beat scrubs
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Yes, it almost nullified the perk and I loved it. I would be completely fine if they reduced the stun to 3 seconds and made enduring effect it, that would give the survivor half a second to get away which is nothing. I would love that 100%
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It felt cheap to me, personally. I'd rather not have another enduring meta where Head on and DS become trash.
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You can say what you want about DS but it did teach me the power and pressure of slugging
Tbh the only times DS ticks me off is if i get hit by it when the timer is almost done. Just shaving 15 sec of that timer would do wonders
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This 100%
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Pyramid head counters not only DS but also DS UB combo, flashlights and sabotage
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I don't think it ever effected Head on as far as I can remember, but id definitely make it apply to only DS and not head on as that perk doesn't need nerfs at all.
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It did affect Head on. It was really weak at the time.
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How about not ruining the game for another Person by tunneling? Learn how to play the game properly, it's not that hard.
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The title of this thread is very misleading, since you start your post right away with rejecting all of the known and practical ways the deal with DS currently and insist a perk be added to ensure people can't use it against you. Sounds like you like to tunnel and should perhaps just get better at the game. 🤷
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You should read my post:
Tunneling is one of the only ways to win against a good team other than relying on their mistakes, that's not opinion that's pretty much proven before anyone shouts "OoOh hE jUsT wAnTs tO tUnNEl, gIT GuD!!!!!11!!1!"
This isn't an opinion, this has been proven by many people I watch. (Marth, showtopper, etc, people who actually know the competitive side of the game).
Also if you think waiting 60 seconds and destroying your pressure is a valid counter then i suggest not even replying to the thread. :L
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