Killer Idea - The Wolf V2
Another take at one of my older Killer ideas. Specifically a werewolf Killer.
The Wolf
Terror Radius: 0/40
Movement Speed: 4.4/4.8 (110%/120%)
Power: Unholy Curse - You have 2 forms, Human form and Wolf form which each have unique effects. You start the trial in human form and can transform by holding M2 for 2 seconds, you move at 3 M/S (75%) during the channel and there will be a directional audio que when transforming into a wolf in the form of a howl. Transforming into a human has a non-directional global transformation sound.
Human Form:
- You are passively undetectable and move at a reduced speed at 4.4 M/S (110%)
- Basic attacks on Survivors will apply the tainted status effect, which lasts until it is manually removed (more on that) or until they are downed.
- Downing a tainted Survivor grants a Beast token, powering up the wolf form and consumes the taint. You may have a maximum of 3 Beast tokens which last for the entire trial.
Note: On injured Survivors, taint is applied BEFORE the down. Meaning a tainted injured Survivor will be untainted after giving the token, and an untainted injured Survivor will give a token after being downed in human form.
Wolf Form:
- You have an increased terror radius (40 meters) and an increased movement speed of 4.8 M/S (120%)
- Tainted Survivors within your terror radius are considered "Feared" which has effects depending on how many beast tokens you have and your addons.
- You must have at least 1 Beast token to transform and gain bonuses depending on the number of tokens you have. The effects of Beast tokens are the following:
- 1 Token: You may transform into wolf form. Feared Survivors cry out as if injured
- 2 Tokens: You have an extended lunge range (same as T3 Myers)
- 3 Tokens: You see the aura of Survivors that become feared for 5 seconds
Prayer Statues:
- 3 Prayer Statues will spawn around the map.
- Survivors may pray at a prayer statue for 10 seconds to remove the tainted status effect.
- After a Survivor plays at a statue, the statue goes dark and is disabled for 60 seconds
Perks
- Mark of the Beast - Survivors you hit with a basic attack become marked. The next time they attempt to heal, repair, open an exit gate, open a chest, break a totem or sabotage a hook they will scream revealing their aura for 3/4/5 seconds and consuming the mark.
- Hex: Decay - After a Survivor has vaulted over the same pallet 4/3/2 times it will instantly break. This effect is disabled once the Hex totem is cleansed
- Hidden Rage - If you hit a Survivor with a basic attack within 5 seconds of them entering your terror radius this perk activates. Your next pallet break or vault action within 20/25/30 seconds will be preformed 100% faster.
Addons
Brown
- Increase the lockout duration of prayer statues (by 10 seconds)
- The howl when turning into a wolf is non-directional
- You transform from wolf form into human form 0.5 seconds faster
- Increase the aura reveal duration of feared Survivors by 1 second
Yellow
- Increase the lockout duration of prayer statues (by 15 seconds)
- You can see the aura of Prayer Statues within 24 meters
- Decrease time to transform into Wolf form by 0.3 seconds
- Feared Survivors have a 5% reduced action speed
- Increase the aura reveal duration of feared Survivors by 2 seconds
Green
- Decrease time to transform into Wolf form by 0.5 seconds
- Feared Survivors have a 10% reduced action speed
- Feared Survivors are 50% louder
- Increase the time it takes Survivors to Purify themselves with a Prayer Statue (by 2 seconds)
- Increase the aura reveal duration of feared Survivors by 3 seconds
Purple
- The first time you down a tainted Survivor, gain an additional beast token
- 1 less Prayer Statue spawns
- Increase the time it takes Survivors to Purify themselves with a Prayer Statue (by 4 seconds)
- Each beast token increases your terror radius by 4 meters while in Wolf form
Red
- You start the trial with a beast token
- You may obtain up to 4 beast tokens. The 4th beast tokens causes feared Survivors to have the exposed effect
Note: The aura of Prayer Statues are NOT revealed to anyone. They are considered to be Killer Belongings for the purposes of perks and items.
Comments
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Notable improvements from V1:
- Wolf form now has a prerequisite before being used (but once met can be used as much as the player wants)
- Human form now has undetectable instead of just a low terror radius
- Taint now has a more interesting function of gradually powering up the wolf
- The Stronger effects of taint now locked behind the beast token system
- Said stronger effect make the aura reading addon from V1 basekit sort of
- Removed the akward mechanic of the Survivors disabling wolf form
- Taint is removed in down instead of hook due to it's new function of powering up the wolf permanently
- Most addons reworked
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Sounds interesting hope we get a werewolfy at some point. Seems like you're version would be pretty fun too. Switching between sneaksy and big wolfy boy sounds like a fun mechanic.
Your perks are actually good, useful, balanced additions by the looks of it as well which I like. The devs giving killer good perks is probably a complete pipe dream at this point but it's a nice set.
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Thanks. My first take at this didn't really make the Human form very stealthy, so a lot of people gave me feedback about how it was completely outclassed by the wolf form and that the taint mechanic wasn't enough to make it relevant.
So this version goes full stealth mode and taint is massively stronger. Before it's only impact was this versions 2 token effect of slowing feared survivors, but now there's all sorts of other effects with the token system. Definitely a massive improvement over the old version.
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Really Interesting idea. I am curious on if there is a time limit on the wolf state.
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Nope. After your first Down you can use it as much as you'd like.
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Made a few changes.
Changed or reworked a few of the addons
I changed taint to be applied pre-down instead of post-down, that way Human form would consistently grant beast tokens when downing Survivors. Purifying is to counter the wolf, not the man.
Biggest change was that I replaced the 5 token effect from 1 M/S increase in MS for each feared Survivor, to a 2 M/S unconditional MS increase. This is both more consistent and doesn't give the wolf free whispers. I know he already gets tracking via aura reading, that's not my point.
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Oni has an instant down, instant pallet breaks, his dash and a completely different method of power acquisition.
I'd buy him being stronger than Oni for whatever reason (if you'd like to make such an analysis please do, it would be useful). But I wouldn't say he's equivalent to him enough to just be a straight upgrade or downgrade.
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His only similarity with the Oni is that he has a transformation mechanic.
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For the record. The Survivor portrait would show who is tainted to all players. It will also show Survivors but not the Killer who is feared.
Tainted Survivors have a slight black mist effect to signify to the Killer that they are tainted, this is not intended to hinder stealth.
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>powering up the wolf form and consumes the taint
dude same
But seriously, this idea does seem pretty rad, if a bit complicated. I'm all for a werewolf killer, and I think the dual form is the best way of going about it. However, I think there's a bit too much going on, and a little too much variability in playstyle that would make him oppressive. I think having a 110 killer that's undetectable and has no way of pulling him out of stealth like Ghostface is too good for the "weaker" of his two forms. Low TR is fine, 0 TR or Red Stain is too good IMO. But then the flipside to that is having a basic M1 killer that's required to get startup for the main power be 110 is also pretty rough. I think 16m TR and 115 for base form would be better, but like I said, just my opinion!
Also, variability in survivor and killer movespeed as part of a power is a bit uncomfortable IMO, and same with stacking too many effects on a tokenset that the survivors don't know of. I personally think that tokens 2 and 5 should be removed, swap the order of lunge and aura reading, and make them 1, 3 and 5 stacks. But, as an added bonus, give those with the "feared" status effect audible whimpers, like injured sounds. Also, I think needing to down a survivor that's tainted to get beast tokens is a bit too involved: you need to get 2 hits in the "weaker" form to access the stronger, which would be a nightmare against good survivors. I think that every time you hit someone in your human form, you should apply the tainted status and receive a token. Similar to Oni's power, but less of a spike in power on a timer, more of an evolution.
And finally the statues. I love the idea of praying to remove the status effect. But I reeeally don't like the concept that the killer can just remove the option entirely. I think the killer should not be able to interact with them, but they are one-time use. You still keep the stacks, but this at least gives the survivors options to avoid the aura reading and noises, but have to be smart about utilization.
I think your perks are absolutely awesome. Incredibly useful, but not too overpowered (or in the case of the one that is, it's a hex totem). Small note though, I think Decay should be 5/4/3 vaults, and should notify the survivor when they first vault a pallet, rather than when the first one breaks. Small details!
Honestly, this is one of the coolest killer ideas I've ever seen, and while I know BHVR can't straight up use fan ideas, I hope they take heavy inspiration from this one. Really really awesome job!
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I want, I want , I want!
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Ok there is something you seem to be misunderstanding a bit.
The Human form isn't supposed to be weak, weaker than wolf form sure but it needs to be usable. The form isn't for chasing which is why it's 110%. But it's not WEAK either. Also by having it be perma-undetectable 110% it's also unique compared to other stealth Killers. 16 meter 115% is just T2 Myers after all and it's not like Ghostface doesn't have plenty of advantages over this Killer stealthwise.
Remember, you are expected to want to willingly use Human form even after the Wolf form is available. If he's too weak then the taint status and beast tokens won't be enough to make up for it.
As for why it's hard to get tokens, I've always found that by putting a lot of power into somethings payoff rather than it's ease of use you can have an overall stronger result without making something braindead easy. By making it so that you have to actually down a Survivor as 110% to get Wolf Form I don't need to consider giving Wolf Form an inherent downside. And by having you continue to need to actually get hits in as 110% and get downs I can continue to have a strong payoff on top of being a 120% Killer.
This was actually a big problem I was having in V1 for this Killer. Since I was making a 120% Killer, he couldn't have an inherently strong power on top of it, but a weak power isn't interesting to use. So my options were to add a strong power and a downside to being 120% or only have a super weak power.
By instead gating the strong mechanics by the Human form, I can make those mechanics stronger and thus more interesting.
So by having Human form be a 110% Stealth Killer that needs to get downs I accomplish the following:
- The distinction in use between the Human and Wolf form is extremely clear. There is no question about why you'd want to use Human form over Wolf form sometimes since he fills a niche
- Human form has lots of counterplay, since Stealth is inherently counterable by awareness and prediction and being 110% prevents brute force as a viable option
- Human form can still succeed despite that counterplay, Stealth is a very health mechanic like that.
- Because of that counterplay, wolf form can be strong as a reward much like T3 Myers
- The vast distinction between Human and Wolf form adds to the skill cap in choosing which form to use at any given moment, rather than just using wolf the entire game once you are able. A 16 TR 115% Killer is too similar in function to the Wolf while a 0 TR 110% Killer doesn't have nearly as much overlap. This is extremely important since a 120% Killer does not inherently have a particularly high skill cap.
As for movement speed altering. What exactly is the issue? Hindered isn't an inherently problematic status effect especially at lower %'s (it won't stop fast vaults or anything) and movement speed alterations also reward players with healthy gameplay styles disproportionately (ex: Campers do not benefit from more movement speed, Killers that patrol distant gens get more use out of it than a Killer in a 3 gen ect). The eventual 5% MS increase also acts as a great final reward for putting in a lot of effort which goes back to what I said earlier about Payoff>Consistency.
Prayer statues are like they are for a similar reason but I can see changing them anyways. So I'll look into that I guess.
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@Furry_Fuccboi thanks for your feedback btw. I really AM curious why you find movement speed alterations to be problematic. I'm aware of the balance considerations but I've always thought of them as one of the better things to tweak from a fun perspective.
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furryblmao
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I disagree, from both a balance and thematic perspective. From a balance perspective, for power spike killers like Oni, there needs to be a payment made for the payoff: you need to get results with a weaker state in order to get to a stronger one. For the player to want to gamble to get more tokens rather than just pop the wolf state instantly, they should have to work with a weaker state in order to get them. Power spike killers are my favourite in the game (Oni in particular I think is the most fun killer they've ever designed), and I think the Wolf is a perfect candidate for that type of killer, but he needs to have a weaker state in order to make the power spike balanced. Another smaller note is that, as long as the player can transfer back into the human form (which would need a cooldown from attacking imo, now that I think about it) without any indication to the survivor, it needs to be a weaker form. A player can't have to worry about both a very high mobility killer with a big TR and also a still very mobile 0 TR stealth killer in the same match with zero indication as to which the killer is in, it's just not fair. And for thematically, it's werewolf: I'm not afraid of a werewolf in human form, save for the fact that he might infect me (tainted effect). Other than that, he's just a human. But in wolf form, he should be feared.
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And movement speed is one of the most crucial aspects of the game: it's why Huntress and Deathslinger feel so much slower and are so much worse in direct chase despite only being 5% slower. It's also why there's only 1 perk in the game that adjusts movement speed, and it's tied behind a mechanic that's difficult to stack and easy to clear. With your idea, you're massively increasing the speed of the killer and also reducing the speed of the survivor, with only one option to clear only one aspect of it it from a survivor's perspective, which is not available in chase. Like you mentioned, hindered does exist in the game: huntress hatchet addons, clown bottles, freddy snares. But they're all temporary hinders, none more than a few seconds, and are all still very very strong. You're suggesting an effective 15% hinder status (-5% survivor, +10% to killer) which is exactly how much clown bottles hinder you for, but it lasts at minimum the entire chase, if not the entire rest of the game. That's ridiculously overpowered.
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Which is why he's 110%. If we are comparing it to stealth Killers then the only thing weaker is T1 Myers, and he's much easier to get the payoff from.
Ghostface is 115% and can expose Survivors, Wraith has an increased movement speed in stealth and is invisible on top of undetectable and Pig has her ambush for anti-loop and has a lot of built in stall
If you directly compared the Human form to any of them it's clear that he's outclassed. I COULD have just made him like the Oni, where he's a basic 115% Killer unless he's transformed. But then the transformation mechanic loses any tactical merit. The way things are now, Human form can succeed but in different ways than how the Wolf form succeeds.
That gives transforming tactical merit. Sure you always want to chase as a wolf, but there is a real choice to make about when to patrol as wolf vs human and if you should try to ambush as human but risk being spotted early vs transform and start the chase as wolf. A stealthy 110% Killer like this isn't really THAT much stronger than a 115% Killer (yes it's stronger but it's by a relatively small amount), but is far more distinct.
An audio que when turning into a Human COULD work, but would need to not reveal his location because that would defeat the point.
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Just as a good way of illustrating the difference in the two statuses you're suggesting, your version is a killer that can transfer from a T1 Myers but with Spirit movespeed to permanent Feral Frenzy Legion that can down in his power and sees scratchmarks/blood, with 0 tell as to which form they are in. That's just far too much diversity and power for one killer.
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Oh so it IS a balance thing. You were making it sound like movement speed alterations were fundamentally bad.
Anyways, I'd like to point out that the 10% difference as Killer is only after an entire games worth of empowerment.
But whatever, I can look into it anyways. I'll make some changes regarding the Prayer statues and token effects. I'm going to have to insist on the 110% Stealthy human form tho.
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All 3 stealth killers you mentioned have drawbacks though: Myers has movespeed, Ghostface can be detected and pulled out of stealth which is on a very long cooldown, and Pig can't attack while crouched. This guy would be permastealth with very few drawbacks, plus the added bonus of Survivors not knowing if he was in stealth.
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Ghostface's reveal mechanic is irrelevant in evaluating his ability as a stealth Killer. If you are being revealed you have failed at stealth. And pig can absolutely attack while crouched, we just call it ambush when she does.
And yes I know T1 Myers is weaker, but T1 Myers is also extremely easy to get out of and unlike Human form isn't expected to get hits on Survivors unless you are using Mirror Myers.
Anyways I'm drafting some changes so gimme a sec. I'm not changing Human forms status as 110% undetectable but I will give it a transformation que.
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It's absolutely relevant when discussing the fairness of a stealth killer though. I just think you've designed a power spike killer where both forms are the power spike, and survivors have 0 idea which one they're up against until they're already dead.
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- Transforming into a human has a non-directional que
- The que when transforming into a wolf is now directional unless you bring an addon
- Prayer statues are automatically disabled on use temporarily but cannot be permanently disabled
- The movement speed related effects of beast tokens have been completely removed and the remaining effects shuffled around slightly
- Feared Survivors are louder even with only 1 token
- Various addons changed to accommodate this
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It IS irrelevant because you can't reveal a stealth Killer that is successfully sneaking up on you and if the conditions for reveal are met, then regardless of any actual disabling of stealth the immediate consequence of being unable to ambush them is there all the same.
The only reason why the reveal mechanic even really matters in the short term is because of how it effects his stalking. But since this Killer doesn't even have stalking in the first place, he gets nothing from having no terror radius around Survivors that can see him.
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I've been saying that a Werewolf who transforms would be an amazing killer since for the longest. Still my most wanted original Killer. Nice Job!
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"And consumes the taint" 🤭
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Tasty
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Love this idea, always wanted a werewolf/vampire killer
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Vampier Killer..... hmmmmm.....
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The perks are simply fantastic, let me address that. And DBD is severely lacking in the "monster" horror. A werewolf would be an amazing fit.
A few questions
How exactly does the human form look/attack?
Are there 2 moris?
Would chase music play if the human form begins a chase?
If the human has no red stain, wouldnt that be too easy to mindgame with?
Still, a fantastic idea. Best killer concept Ive read in awhile.
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Taking your questions in order:
- A tall man in a cloak, face obscured. He'd attack with a machete
- The Mori would probably always be in wolf form, temporarily transforming (with none of the associated audio ques) into the wolf form if he's in Human form (and transforming back afterwards). He totally could have 2 mori's, but if he was actually implemented I doubt it would actually go like that.
- Yes. He would have chase music as a Human
- Not really. Not having a red stain helps, but red glow mindgames already exist and being 110% hurts more than being undetectable helps. If you play Ghostface you'd know that mid-chase Undetectability is more of a minor help than a game changer.
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I assume that as a human, it is impossible to get Bloodlust then.
Secondly, does the Wolf form have a timer? Or is it infinite?
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Wolf form is infinite so long as you've acquired at least one beast token.
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My main worry about something like this is that having to work your way up to the werewolf form (similar to Oni, I suppose) and a giant terror radius might not be reasonable enough drawbacks for permanently being able to be at 120% speed, particularly when you consider that any perks that directly improve a Killer's ability to chase are stronger on this Killer than on any other since they further improve the one thing this Killer has over any other Killer (permanently increased base movement speed).
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Made a vampire killer juuust for you (I mean not really but I did get inspired)
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