3 Seconds Is More Than Enough
I'm a Legion main and I like to see most of the threads that appear on the forum about the killer.
But one thing about them is that when anyone asks "Why did Legion get his fatigue increased to 4 seconds from 3?" the answer from the devs is always "Because they are a 4.6 m/s killer and the power would be too oppressive in chase and the survivor gets almost no time to run away to a pallet or window."
I got intrigued if it is really that bad to have a 3 seconds cooldown, so I decided to test that with a friend of mine. These videos are purely to measure the distance that the survivor gets when Legion cancels frenzy right behind the survivor so no mindgames or anything else like that matters here (in the second one i used shadowborn oops). I also recorded them in a kinda realistic scenario.
For the people who might say "But they had the speed boost from the hit" - I only cancelled the frenzy when I was very very close to the survivor so they had no speed boost there.
I think that 3 seconds fatigue is more than enough for a survivor to run away to safety from the killer.
The cooldown add-ons could just be reworked into something completely different.
Tell me your opinion about this.
Comments
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I agree.
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Its incredible how many things like these are in the game. Legion's add-ons also suck.
I also experimented frank's mixtape and the scratched ruler combo. If the survivor is just super close to you and doesn't run, you need 1:12 seconds to down them. Now imagine this with a running survivor that will make everything for you not to catch him.
Stab wounds study is just useless.
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This is too true.
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I still think that they won't change it even after someone proves that this is really badly balanced tho :/
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In a knee-jerk reaction to the broken state in which he was released, the devs over-corrected for Legion. Instead of tweaking a couple things here or there to balance him, they nerfed him in multiple ways that left him hobbled and just because he's limping at 4.6 m/s doesn't mean it's not limping.
The stun is too long, and whiffing shouldn't take him out of Feral Frenzy, a missed attack cooldown would be more than enough given you're losing time during a power that's already too short if survivors are spread out.
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I 100% agree with you. The devs thought that being a 4.6 m/s killer was too much lethality and i don't know why. Being a pure 4.6 killer you become too much predictable.
It would be fine if they did that but tried to correct the changes as soon as possible. Feral Frenzy only got non-loopable in tiles that you weren't looped normally after 7 months by increasing the vault and movement speeds.
To change the penalty they should've done/do:
- Missing a hit puts you into fatigue BUT doesn't drop the bar.
OR
- Missing a hit drops a portion of the power gauge (like 50% or something).
We are taking baby steps in the right way tho. I hope they start to pay more attention to things like these which they are starting to with, for example, clown not having a movement speed penalty after throwing a bottle which made no sense to be in the game.
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I look forward to trying out updated Clown. I do hope this means killers who need it will get tweaks in the future. Like Legion.
I'm on PS4, and with the way the game plays punishing Legion for whiffing in Feral Frenzy is... well, it feels like the game is flipping me off for playing on console. Anything worse than the regular missed attack cooldown is just unnecessary. It's ridiculous to think that the devs went from no missed attack cooldown whatsoever to a missed attack stunning Legion for 4 seconds and taking him out of Frenzy. I mean, #########?? That's an extreme 180.
I'd really like to see Legion get fixed. I have some cool cosmetics for Julie and Susan that I'd like to wear, but I just hate playing as Legion. I always resort to being a powerless M1 killer when I try.
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I think about that 180 that you talked about. Of course it was brainless to keep missing and getting no penalty but coming from no penalty to EXTREME penalty is really never a good idea.
I am trying now to use feral frenzy even if all survivors are injured just to put them mending and here's a tip: don't do it. I did it to prove a point and i was right- by the time that you hit the 2nd survivor the other one is finished mending so you basically do nothing with it.
I have the philosophy that you only get profit from FF if you hit at least 2 survivors and 1 of them is healthy. Otherwise they are a pure m1 killer.
Another 180 that comes to my mind is the fact that the most lethal and 2nd most flexible power in the game became the one with the 2nd most cooldown, is only worth in very specific scenarios and is ALWAYS non-lethal.
Playing on PS4 must be really rough.
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There should be a reward for using their power, like each successful frenzy hit lowers the stun time.
Also maybe the devs think one missed hit means losing all you power and getting stunned is fair but for those of us on console it isn't really.
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Not even in pc it is fair. There are many factors that can make you miss a hit and lose all the snowball that you had.
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Yeah, you guys have the glorious aim dressing too for one thing. Better not go for a swing if there's a hooked survivor nearby.
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I was talking about those straight walls that are not that straight because their hitboxes have corners in the middle for some reason but that too sometimes.
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Incredibly sad but true a lot of the things in Legion rework completely overlap each other which is why Legion such a terrible place now.
Moon walk exploit.
To counter this they made deep wounds not go down in The Terror radius ( this still lot of problems until they made it so it doesn't go down when you're running) this change alone pretty much cancelled out the moonwalk exploit at the time
But for some reason they also decided to take away Legion's ability to see blood which seems still incredibly stupid for a non lethal power. This was also to incentivise you to go and get other people rather than tunneling the person who stabbed with frenzy however considering you couldn't moonwalk exploit anymore this was pointless.
The problem with moonwalking was already addressed you didn't have to cripple the tracking capability
Lack of frenzy counterplay.
Frenzy was pretty much very difficult to counter as it was super easy to get lots of reward with very little effort and not much the survivors could do to mitigate it. So the missed swing penalty was introduced so now if a survivor was able to dodge the swing they get rewarded.
4 seconds stun I don't need to go over this post goes through it enough
However they then also added the fact that the bar had to be fully charged up for you too to use frenzy again which would have been perfectly fine if they didn't keep the problem of hitting a survivor outside of frenzy and has a penalty to your frenzy meter.
One or two of these by themselves wouldn't have been a problem however all four of them combined gave Legion a lot of punishment and negatives for a non lethal power especially when all the lethal powers at the time didn't have the as severe downsides for example phasing chainsaws. (even now they don't)
Speed
What some reason despite making feral frenzy non lethal they decided to make it a lot slower and remove the add-ons that speed it up changing them with increased killer detection range which in itself is terrible.
To compensate the increased to the duration of feral frenzy and let's be honest the duration increase was pointless you lost so much effective power from the speed reduction that the extra duration did nothing you still had a massive net loss.
Hell even now outside of using play with your food there is no way you can increase movement speed like you could with the add-ons.
Overall:
In the end the legion "rework" I felt like they just got a list of all the complaints and immediately just threw a bunch of nerfs in a pot without thinking how each of them would combined together.
I do at least appreciate that are starting to fix a lot of the overboard nerf smacking they did
Increasing the movement speed in frenzy which was something a lot of legion mains asked for as the duration boost wasn't helping.
They increased the Vault speed which just made vaulting as Legion feel so much better after it was so clunky with the rework
They gave you the ability to see blood and scratch marks when frenzy the ends instead of fatigue ends this was a nice change but honestly I don't get why they don't just add the ability to see scratch marks and blood stains or at least just blood stains in frenzy as it's not that strong
but it's still not enough because they really smashed the Legion with the Nerf sledgehammer
Post edited by Volfawott on6 -
Agreed
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Couldn't have said it better myself.
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>Another 180 that comes to my mind is the fact that the most lethal and 2nd most flexible power in the game became the one with the 2nd most cooldown, is only worth in very specific scenarios and is ALWAYS non-lethal.
This. I loved how flexible frenzy used to be and how there were always so many choices one could make with the right one usually rewarding the player with multiple injures and a fairly quick down (or just a quicker down if you are actively trying to run someone down). It was a mobility tool, a chase tool, an information tool, a juggling tool and a stalling tool. One could basically flex the power to fit whatever their current situation needed at the time.
With new Legion the power just feels incredibly restrictive. It's good for one thing and one thing only which is injuring a group of people IF they all happen to be close enough together and aren't actively trying to make distance. Like the power has only one purpose and it's not even amazing at it.
In regards to the actual topic: I 100% agree, but I think the character needs much more to be actually decent, specifically they need some sort of chase tool again as I personally believe that a non-stealth killer without any chase tools will never be good.
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I made some possible reworks for legion and posted them on the forums.
I just pointed this flaw out, there are lost of others. Here's a list I made a few months ago that tells everything that is bad with the power.
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I do think I've read some of your reworks and actually enjoyed them as a whole.
Regarding the list, I can only say I agree with everything. I think Legion is beyond bad and like someone else in this thread already mentioned, it just feels like the devs just had a knee-jerk reaction(despite them saying that they would never knee-jerk nerf a character again when talking about freddy b4 his rework) and just put every nerf ever suggested onto the character in exchange for a measly 5% extra base ms(hurray?).
In the end we can only hope they'll give them a proper power update some time in the near future.
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I think that they will focus first on the chainsaw bros (add-ons only for hillbilly and add-ons + power rework for leatherface) and then pig's and huntresse's add-ons and then they will finally look at legion... if they ever will...
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i get the point but if you decrease the cooldown plus that cooldown addons you could create a 2 seconds stun wich can be very oppresive. unless you rework cooldown addons to make them different
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Then rework the add-ons into something creative AND useful.
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I play and main legion because hes underpowered. He needs a bit of a buff.
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I'm not sure I'd say Feral Frenzy used to be the most lethal power, but now it's completely non-lethal with so many downsides... in theory, it's supposed to be good for slowing down the game. Only, not really; it's more just an annoyance for survivors to make the match less fun and more tiresome for them. Okay, so then it's good for tracking? Well, only if survivors are all grouped up, which once they discover it's Legion they really shouldn't be, so then he's just an M1 killer with a power that lets him run fast across the map but then stuns him for 4 seconds... ######### is the point of this, again?
If I'm gonna play for tracking and slowdown, I'd much rather play Doctor. If I want to play a killer who can go fast, I'll pick Spirit, Wraith, Billy, or Oni. Legion in theory has the ability to do both in one package, but he doesn't do either of them well. No other killer stops being lethal when they go fast. Spirit and Wraith may have to come out of their power first, but they don't get stunned for 4 seconds when doing so. Legion is a whole lot of punishment with no payoff. Put Infectious Fright on Billy or Oni and they have similar tracking to Legion with more speed and way more lethality.
All in all, Legion's main superpower seems to be that he's supernaturally annoying, both for survivors with "mending" and for the killer player with his extremely punishing and situational power. The best thing about Legion is his aesthetic; Legion gets great cosmetics.
Yeah, playing on PS4 is a pain. The frame drops hurt a lot during a chase. If frames drop around the time I swing my weapon, it almost always misses.
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Hello Mandy/Peanits,
Can you give your thoughts on this discussion? (Lowering Legion’s cooldown, missed Feral Frenzy attack penalties, etc.)
We’ve had this version of Legion for a while and there’s a lot of feedback and statistics available now I’m sure.
Thank you as always!
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I can't understand people that do this, maining something that is underpowered just because it is. I just can't see the beauty in it so I admire the people who do that.
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I said it was the most lethal power in the game (maybe the 2nd now that i think of it) because the survivor wasn't able to run away from you, it took a lot of time costing you the match so it wasn't good, it was simply lethal.
I agree with what you said tho.
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Just for posting this, the devs will give Legion a five second stun.
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The thing about legion is dispite being on the weaker side ( i personally don't think it's that bad) they are very popular and they are quite the noobstomper
Overal Legion is probably doing pretty well as if you are up against newer survivors who can't chase well it's usually an easy win because of either being able to down everyone left and right or by getting massive momentum by all the healing being done.
So if you look at Legion who is picked often and is doing well on the grand scale of things and then look at other weaker killers who are doing worse and are picked less. The priority is obvious
We might get some small changes across the line but i wouldn't hold my breath for a rework/huge buff anytime soon
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I wouldn't doubt it... I wish i had the PepeLaugh emote here.
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Every killer can stomp on newer survivors if they're good enough.
As you said, they can change numbers and it doesn't take that much time but it's been more than a year that they did the update.
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The thing is, and I did cover this in my thread The Legion Problem, is that he's balanced around the Pip system rather than the community-preferred kill based perceptions. Legion is without a doubt one of, if not, the EASIEST killer to rank up with even if you don't get many kills.
Legion's strength isn't in their ability to secure kills, it's being able to continually and consistently harass survivors all game.
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You'll find it hard to find anyone that doesn't agree with you on this.
Besides the devs of course.
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That is what intrigues me.
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It is simply a bad design. They need a rework imo but until then dont make them absolutely horrendous to play as.
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Yo Im famous lmao
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Well its your own fault for maining legion, he is a bad killer. If you ask me i think they should revert him back to his old self with all the new changes. Bring him back down to his slower base movement, give him back the ability to down people with frenzy but keep the nerf where he has a four second cooldown and if he misses an attack he still leaves frenzy. Since they changed the way deep wound works and you can no longer cheese the down it is not so cheap. I just think that it makes no sense to have a killer whose power stops being useful once survivors are injured.
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Good job on the guy who made this post, you clearly know what is the problem is, what you want fixed, and and how prepared you are. GREAT JOB👏👏👏👏
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I think the Legion's power is really good itself (I am a Legion main myself), but it is just things like this that make many people doubt him. Maybe the Devs could make his power naturally last a bit longer or have him move faster (and/or shorten his cool down as you said)? The many still-giant maps don't allow him to hit many people when they are spread apart. It kills him when he can only hit one person each frenzy. The more he hits, the stronger he becomes. When a Legion player can hit almost everyone each frenzy, the game is theirs.
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I feel legion is kinda weak especially with how bad the match making system is, I get dominated whenever I play as legion. But I can get 4ks with Freddy without even trying that hard, but with legion it's a different story i need to try so hard to just get 1 sacrifice.
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Agree 100% man
Devs are survivor mains, fffff
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I'm a Legion main and I have to say in my opinion she isn't weak
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Thank you for the kind words :)
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One of the many other problems that old legion had was that your power did nothing else to an injured person.
The missing hits mechanic is very unreliable and it shouldnt be key to balance a killer imo.
I like the Legion because of their aesthetics and i have been very vocal in the forums that i dont like the power how it is now. I loved the old power but ofc it needed changes.
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Doesnt matter how many buffs that they give to feral frenzy as long as they are a m1 killer in the end you totally rely on the survivor's mistakes and in high ranks people usually know how to loop really well so you get stomped and you cant do anything about it.
Its a very bad design atm and they need a rework. Legion now is just annoying to face. You know that something ia wrong when you feel safer when the killer uses their power- i feel like that when legion uses frenzy because i know im immortal while he is in that stance.
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Yeah legion really has a bad time at finishing survivors as the videos show.
On the other hand freddy has the whole package.
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Thank you for your work. Glad someone actually took the time to do this. ♥
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I also like to run perkless on survivor so I can get better at chases.
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I want this killer be something enjoyable for everyone. Not frustrating for one side and annoying for the other.
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honestly the 4s stun is why i don't play legion much if at all. sure he wasn't the best initially but the 4s stun is like being hit with a ds or head on constantly, only you can move at like 20% your speed, except your also being blinded like a nurse,
least nurses stun (her lookdown etc) balances out the fact that she is lethal in her attacks
i will say this, and say it again until the day i die. legion shouldn't be built around deep wounds, but rather be the counterpart to nurse, as ghostface is to myers.
legion should be able to do normal damage in his frenzy as if it was an m1 attack. at the same time though, successful hits should diminish his power gauge much like with oni. His rechage should be 20s for a 10s use period where he can just go ape, really fast, and shorter cooldowns/faster vaults and vaulting pallets. missing attacks should pull him out and be punished. his reach should be shortened to compensate for his increased speed requiring him to be precise. stuns in frenzy should double stun and remove his power. exiting and entering frenzy should be able to be done at any stage of his power gauge, but he can lower his power below that of which is 0 left by successfully downing a survivor or being stunned, forcing him into a longer cooldown.
take away deepwounds and his tracking. he doesn't need those. he needs lethality, and would've done so much better as a pseudo nurse/oni style rampager with long cooldowns, who has no tracking or extra abilities other then to just ignore pallets and vaults temporarily at the expense of losing all tracking on survivors (blood and scratch marks) and requiring precision hits. you could even make it that successful hits lengthen his power time, but have attack cooldowns, but successful downs take him out of his power.
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What you are suggesting feels too overpowered and obnoxious for both sides. As i said before in this thread, i think that you shouldn't rely on missing or not a hit to balance something.
By what you are suggesting, when legion uses frenzy the survivor can just try to make them miss but it isnt that easy unless stupid things like hitboxes and stuff happen. On the other hand there are too many stuns and too much penalty for missing a hit.
I don't think it is the way to go. Vaulting pallets should be removed or activate is specific occasions.
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