Mori should not work with cages
Comments
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You keep going on the description and the fact is moris prerequisite has always been you have to hook the survivor which can be avoided. Survivors can disable hooks flashlight the killer bodyblock (which ive personally done to prevent the killer) the cages are NOT a hook the devs have said this multiple times thats why perks dont apply. Allowing it with moris is a inconsistency and since its not a hook ph should just not be able to mori someone after theyve been hooked. "Then hed just hook them instead" yep and survivors have counters to that by flashlight blinding and disabling hooks and bodyblocking. And if the killer tries to tunnel mori out of cage stuff like bt doesnt apply if the survivor is unhooked bt would apply and give the survivor some time to get away. And if the survivor has ds they can just jump into a locker to force the killer to take the ds. Moris are already strong enough we dont need a killer to make them stronger.
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Listen, I think we're all in agreement about one thing: moris don't work the way the text says they should.
The disagreement comes from what the devs should do: either change the text so it accurately depicts the effect or change the effect so it works the way it says.
With that in mind, this discrepancy should just be reported as a bug and left up to the devs.
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So run Ebony Mori with pointy boy, got it.
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The thing is, the description of the mori doesn't need to change, it just needs to be consistent when applied to the game.
Pyramid Head has cages, something unique to his character that no other killers have. That's what makes him so special. Other killers are REQUIRED to hook survivors, while pyramid head can cage them if tormented. That's what makes him so unique. (And in most rounds I've played against ph, almost every survivor gets tormented at least once). Whether the player chooses to use cages is based on their play style, but moris should not work after a survivor has been caged. It just comes with the consequence of choosing to cage someone rather than hooking them.
If hooking/unhooking perks don't apply to cages, why should moris work as well? (Ebony/Ivory)
This will influence the player using ph to actually take the risks of using hooks in order to use their moris, rather than caging every survivor instead.
The description of the mori doesn't need to change, just the activation to use it does, as it is inconsistent.
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I agree. If cages are meant to be a different way to sacriface survivor than it shouldn't affect mori offerings and hook progress.
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Oh yes, because we can all see the ######### code of the game. Totally legit reason to allow mori after a cage 🤣🤣🤣
The offering description EXPLICITLY SAYS "survivors that have been hooked". I don't even need to make other points to demonstrate why it's a problem, yet other people seem insistent on them for reasons beyond my comprehension.
"Somewhere in the game is some code that makes survivors completely silent when injured or dying. Therefore if it's in the code, we have to leave it as it is."
This is you. This is how you sound.
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i would just let people be silly its not worth arguing with people who lack common sense. It seems to me these guys are killer mains who need moris with dorito head which is sad. Moris are game breaking as is and to allow them to work with something that isnt an actual hook is ridiculous. Thats like saying you can mori someone if you put them in madness 3 with doc or hit someone with a hatchet with huntress. Its not logical
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I actually agree with this. It's inconsistent as hell.
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@ill_Boston_lli except doc and huntress dont take hook states when they do that. So nice "common sense" you seem to be so proud of. Real good strawman
It seems to me the prevailing logic is that moris shouldn't work cos cages are not hooks and moris are hook effects.
Ok so you shouldn't lose hook states too. I mean it's not a hook and losing a hook state is a result of being hooked hence an effect. Guess they need their own "cage states" now LUL see the problem here?
"But muh description"
Oh pls descriptions have been inaccurate in the past. Mm's addons are a good example of this. So until the devs confirm if this is intentional or not this is not a valid talking point
And balance? Give me a break. You're across the map. If ph gets there before your teammates then that's just sad nobody really bothered to come for you. You have the chase and then your teammates have a head start to get you. It's honestly baffling people consider this a problem
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not always are you sent far away. if you are in the middle of the map it takes no time to get to the cage. again if it was a hook it should proc all perks that are affected by it. he has none of the downsides and all the the plus sides with it. no time sending to a cage and then he can mori you first cage???? that's balance??? yeah right. either way i have put this in bug reports lets see what they say. Yeah other killer abilities don't take a hook state but even still what the message with this is is that the killer ability can grant him the ability to mori with his power. its stupid and shouldn't be a thing. and that's from a killer main.
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I'll write this in big print to make it easy to understand...
If no other hook effect works with cages, then neither should a mori.
Your logic that they consume hook states is irrelevant when no other hook effects proc.
And yes it is a balance issue. If PH wants he can get there in under 20 seconds (20*4.6=92m where you are likely to spawn less than 80m away). Every game where PH wanted to tunnel me they were on top of me very shortly after my cage appeared, even if someone was there to save me almost right away. And that is a BIG IF. Any good PH will understand how cage spawns work and won't cage you at the edge of the map. They will do it when you are near the center so they can camp/tunnel you more easily. It sounds to me like either you haven't play against a good PH, or you are not a good PH if you have trouble tunneling the guy out of the cage. Literally the only reason you could defend this is if you want to abuse it.
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@thesuicidefox except consuming hook states is a hook effect lol same with moris. And saying it's irrelevant or putting it in big caps doesn't change this so nice try
It's not hard to start running when a tormented surv goes down. Now I play with friends (usually duo) and I'm normally out of the cage before ph makes it so I'll concede my personal experiences have made me bias but I usually have plenty of time to find a loop with basic map knowledge
Keep making assumptions all you want about me wanting to abuse it but I already find ph to be a joke bar when he fakes the power cos no cool down is bs tbh and I just dont have the problems with this people seem to like to complain about
@ill_Boston_lli I agree let's see. If it does turn out to be unintentional fair nough
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If it's a hook effect then why doesn't ANY OTHER HOOK EFFECT WORK?
Yea thought so.
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@thesuicidefox uh can you not read? Moris and losing hook states are both hook effects.
So if moris shouldn't work cos they're hook effects than cages shouldn't take hook states
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your experiences have been good ones then. Ive seen a survivor get sent to a cage not but 20 meters away on certain maps and not too far on others because of where they got downed. finding a loop against him is irrelevant as this killer can not be looped. the key to running this guy is making him waste time and going tile to tile imo at least. but him being able to get to the cage really isnt the issue. theyre stifling all hook perks but not a mori?? come on man you gotta see my point here. I dont usse moris as is because i feel they literally take the challenge out of the killing game. but beside that i dont think allowing a mori but not pop dhop ds bt etc.. is crazy.
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@ill_Boston_lli o man only 20m really? Ig on maps like coal tower yeah. That's actually messed up
I think I see where you're coming from lol
Edit: tbh with ya I dont think moris should be in the game to begin with. The amount of times I've been proxied into no bt mori is sad
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"Moris and losing hook states are both hook effects."
Bro if mori is a hook effect then it shouldn't work BECAUSE HOOK EFFECTS DO NOT WORK WITH CAGES. Hook effect =/= consuming a hook state. Hook effect is anything that says "when a survivor is hooked" which is the entire point of this conversation.
Imagine asking someone if they can read and not comprehending your own statement.
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could you imagine there are two survivors left right i send one to the cage and its right next to me i get there first and just stand in front of it.... RIP
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i can agree there i play killer more than anything and bringing a mori only takes away the authenticity of the game imo. Its no challenge when you can eliminate someone after their first hook .
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@thesuicidefox no a hook effect is smthn that occurs as a result of being hooked. This isn't a debate
Edit: if the description is what made it a hook effect then I guess you dont think exhaustion reset is actually a hook effect since nowhere on descriptions like dead hard, sprint burst, berus toxin does it say that exhaustion resets on hook
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@Grim Not being able to use a mori should be a consequence of using cages, as ph can still hook survivors when they're tormented. They just choose not to, and with that decision, they should not be allowed to mori a survivor after they're caged.
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@Pizzaeater4ever all things considered I can see the validity of moris not working with cages due to small maps allowing ph to remove the distance tradeoff he should have
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maybe the mori doesnt check whether you actually achieved a hook score event (like BBQ or PGTW do), but whether a Survivor is in second hookstage or not?
but yeah, the description does state you needed to hook them so i'd say its a justified change.
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"no a hook effect is smthn that occurs as a result of being hooked."
Which is... what a mori is. A HOOK EFFECT. And since you haven't been hooked, then the HOOK EFFECT should not trigger.
You have to be trolling at this point. You are literally saying exactly what I've been saying yet somehow still think a cage is a hook.
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So if he cant mini mori with his cages, what does his power do? Im dead serious, his powers are fun but rather mediocre no and then you want to take away the mori ability if he uses it? If thats the case then it should require much more time to free a survivor from the cages, cause then whats the ducking point of them
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You are missing the point, they are talking about when the killer burns a Mori offering, that you shouldn't be able to mori when escaping from a cage, as you were never hooked in the first place, which is one of the requirements for the offering(s)
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Note that it just says Perks and not Offerings, just saying.
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@thesuicidefox my god ok. I've never disputed that a mori isn't a hook effect. I'll break it down for you
Are hook states removed as a result of being hooked? Yes
Does this make hook state removal a hook effect? Yes u just agreed on the def of a hook effect urself
Do cages also remove hook states? Obv
Therefore cages use some hook effects but not others
If being a hook effect is all it takes for the cages to negate them then cages also should not, by ur own logic, consume hook states
My original point is that the cages clearly dont negate all hook effects as they're not entirely separate from hooks so stop trying to say they are
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It does? Now that some next level bullshit
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I'd be okay with this change. Moris need to be nerfed anyways.
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Dev. Said. They. Do. Not. Count. As. Hooks.
There should be ZERO exceptions. They are separate from hooks because hook effects do not work. You can make up whatever you want but a hook state =/= hook effect. Mori is a hook effect, therefore it should not work.
And for the record I don't think that cages should count for hook states at all either. But that is a different discussion. The point is that mori EXPLICITLY SAY "survivors that have been hooked" therefore if they weren't hook a mori should not work.
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They are not talking about mori offering. Specifically it is moriing off the hook. And yes, i would say a 1 use offering would be stronger than a perk. That being said id support it ignoring the mori from rancor and devour hope
Edit: just remembered they are called offerings. Also continuation.
If we fully seperate cages and hooks then should PH hook once and cage once, does that mean the survivor gets a free hook state cause he switched between
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@thesuicidefox and yet some hook effects do work
Unless the devs just forgot to implement cage states, this is intentional
Again with the description you're like a dog with a bone. Descriptions have been inaccurate. They have been changed. Back then there was no need for the distinction between hooks and hook states so ofc it'd say hook. Cages did not exist then. Fact. End of
You can repeat yourself 100 times more and get as worked up as you like but it doesn't suddenly make you right and it doesn't change fact
Some hook effects other than moris do work. Cages affect hook states. Moris work based on hook states. It's really that simple
Ofc you'd actually support cages getting their own independent states to change. If that was how it was then ironically their only real use would be to cage and tunnel as opposed to just hooking and actually getting some real map pressure
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@SquirrelKnight that'd be how they work yes. If cages no longer took a hook state and you swapped between then they'd have 2 for each
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"Unless the devs just forgot to implement cage states, this is intentional"
This is clearly not intentional by the fact the mori says "survivors that have been hooked" and ZERO other hook effects work.
"You can repeat yourself 100 times more and get as worked up as you like but it doesn't suddenly make you right and it doesn't change fact"
What "facts" have you presented LMAO. Here are mine:
1) Cages do not proc ANY hook effect.
2) Devs said cages are not hooks.
3) Mori says "survivors that have been hooked".
"and yet some hook effects do work" ... "Some hook effects other than moris do work."
fucking NAME THEM.
"Ofc you'd actually support cages getting their own independent states to change. If that was how it was then ironically their only real use would be to cage and tunnel as opposed to just hooking and actually getting some real map pressure"
Because they are pretty easily abused and cause all this confusion with hook effects. If they were completely separate then there wouldn't be a problem. Two other killers have alternate ways to kill you, and there are 2 perks that provide an alternate way to kill. It seems reasonable to have cages be their own thing.
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You must be trolling rn. Weve been over all 3 of those points but all you seem to do is retype them and pretend they're right now
Ok...
1) they do. They remove hook states. Just. Like. Hooks. Thus hook effect
2) that's irrelevant. It's clear that whilst they are not hooks they're not entirely different and thus are still privy to some hook effects. E.g. look to 1. This is clearly an intentional feature
3) descriptions can be wrong. As @Dpooly pointed out, there's also a description that explicitly says cages are not influenced by perks, making no mention of offerings. This also explains exhaustion reset. And since the mori description is older and not written with ph's power in mind I'm willing to bet that the moris one is simply outdated
It's painful that you cant see how that very post proves you just repeat yourself and dont listen. A big waste of time
Edit: your 2nd paragraph was funny btw. Ye ig the devs just forgot to implement cage states ykno a feature thatd play a big part in his power LUL and now the cages are using hook states due to some luck from a bug
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No what's painful is that you defend this as if it's supposed to be this way. Every instance points to it being unintentional. You keep twisting things to say it is but there are several clear lines that say it shouldn't.
Also... STILL WAITING TO HEAR WHAT OTHER HOOK EFFECTS WORK WITH CAGES.
"hey do. They remove hook states. Just. Like. Hooks. Thus hook effect"
Removing a hook state is not the same as a hook effect. Mori description makes it a hook effect.
"that's irrelevant. It's clear that whilst they are not hooks they're not entirely different and thus are still privy to some hook effects. E.g. look to 1. This is clearly an intentional feature"
It's not. They said it supposed to be that way yet in this one specific instance it's not. Therefore it isn't supposed to be that way per the devs own words.
"descriptions can be wrong."
And so can interactions. JFC really?
"It's painful that you cant see how that very post proves you just repeat yourself and dont listen. A big waste of time"
Funny this is what I thought about everything you post. Unlike you though, I actually have evidence to support what I'm saying.
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@thesuicidefox U even agreed that a hook effect is smthn that occurs as a result of being hooked. Guess what?
Hook states get removed from being hooked. Hard to understand ik. But pls try.
They did not say that moris are not supposed to work this way. They said that cages aren't a hook. This does not mean that they are entirely different. No mention is made of offerings by the devs or otherwise. The rest is what you've chosen to infer
They can. That's why I'm not basing my conclusions on the fact that the mori works out of cage. Unlike how you're basing your argument on a description which contradicts a much newer and up to date 1
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The thing is is that, perks the synergize with the hooks don't work on cages. So why should Moris work on cages when hook perks don't?
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"U even agreed that a hook effect is smthn that occurs as a result of being hooked"
WHICH CAGES ARE NOT HOOKS. OMFG
"They did not say that moris are not supposed to work this way."
No but they said cages are not hooks, and the mori offering explicitly says "hook". Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see it's unintentional.
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@Kellie for 1 his 1st time dialogue only mentions perks
2 they're not the same thing so comparing apples to oranges is disingenuous
And 3 technically speaking moris operate on hook states not hooks. Perks are the opposite
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@thesuicidefox for the last time
Yes cages aren't hooks but they aren't entirely different either so dont quote me if you dont even have any idea what I'm saying
I proved they were not entirely dissimilar as cages can use some hook effects regardless of how alike to hooks they are. I highly doubt the devs could forget to code smthn as important to ph's power as cage states so I can only surmise that this is intentional and the moris description is wrong. Ur right it doesnt take a rocket scientist so I really dont get why ur finding this so hard and quite frankly I'm done wasting my time hitting my head against a brick wall
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"Yes cages aren't hooks"
This. This is all that needs to be said here. "Cages are not hooks". So mori should not work.
You're wasting your time because you have no argument at all. You proved nothing. No where is there evidence that mori should be an exception to the rule. Again, I AM STILL WAITING TO HEAR WHAT HOOK EFFECTS WORK WITH CAGES. Until you can give me an example, you have no argument.
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Off topic but aren’t you a Mixer streamer that goes under the name of an original survivor now?
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yes i am i am moving to twitch though why do you ask?
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I recognize the forum username, then the OP user, and put two and two together. Not a big deal, was just wondering. Good luck on Twitch though
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That would be the most worthless power in the game. That is the worst idea for.this game i have heard of in a VERY long time ☹️☹️
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Was hoping wed get offical word on this for the q and a or in bugfixes but nothing so far.
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If BBQ doesn't work then moris shouldn't either. They said they wanted all hook related perks to not work with cages so this should be the same with the cages.
For anyone saying cages are hooks this isn't exactly true. Cages ACT like hooks but share the same properties.
- Cages you can't kobe and have skill checks.
- Hooks you can kobe but must struggle.
They are somewhat linked but not identically. So if the description of a mori says you need to be hooked then you should need to be hooked.
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Inb4...
Patch 4.0.1
Miscellaneous
- Edited the description of the Mori Offerings so that they indicate that they work with The Executioner's Cages of Atonement.
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