http://dbd.game/killswitch
Doing a pallet loop is mainly useless
I've been trying out ways to increase the time I stay alive in a chase.
I've been using juking, pallet stuns, pallet loops and good window vaults.
However most times I pallet loop, I end up getting hit one way or another.
Reason why :
- If the killer is more nearer to your side of the pallet than the other side, if you vault the killer will just lunge behind ya and hit ya.
- If the killer is in the middle and/or moving left and right, if you vault the killer will go to where you're vaulting to and hit you from the front
- most maps have pallets in between obstacles that are really small (Pipe of Trash) and/or difficult to see where the killer is going (Walls). This means whether you try to vault or not you're either going to get hit as your vaulting or after you have landed from a vault because the distance between each side is small.
- Only rarely have I come across a pallet in between two medium/large obstacles (Pile of rubble) which in that case pallet loops are efficient
If you have any tips on pallet looping OR any better ways please feel free to tell :)
Comments
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Not every Pallet is 100% playable once thrown. There are some really strong Pallets at Jungle Gyms and Long Walls. Those need to be broken by the Killer, otherwise they will not get a Survivor here.
But what you described, small sides next to the Pallet, those are unsafe Pallets. You can try to play it as Survivor, but as long as the Killer is not bad, they will most likely get a Hit. The Key here is to either get the Stun and then get away, or to fake the Killer into an action and use the Distance to go to the next Pallet.
E.g. the Outside-Pallets on Badham are fair and not too safe. You can waste some time here, but it is better to not stay at the loop too much. Sadly Bloodlust exists, so those fair Pallets become unfair, since the Killer gets a Speedboost after a while, which makes it even more difficult to play the Pallet or to make it to another Pallet.
You can also try to combine two weaker Pallets and maybe get quite a good Setup. This works on a Map like Hawkins, for example. (But also only to an extend, since Hawkins-Pallets are pure garbage)
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It's about wasting the killers time and know what pallets are safe/unsafe.
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"Sadly"???????
I'm sorry what?
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Oh yeah, I forgot - luckily Killers can just run around a Loop without breaking the Pallet, when the Pallet is completely fair to play for both sides.
Or do you want to imply something again? I am not talking about strong Loops here, just before you make something up again.
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There are two types of pallets
- Safe Pallets that the Killer has to break when you drop them. You can pre-drop them if the gens are going fast and you're ok with creating dead zones. Looping wastes more time in these chases and makes them last longer though.
- Unsafe Pallets that are really only valuable for the stun. These ones you have to try to loop because the loop becomes worthless when the pallet is down. Hawkins and Yamaoka have lots of these. Even if you're healthy you should loop them because getting hit through the pallet and landing the stun will buy you more distance than just running forward
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This is very helpful ill keep this in mind
Thank you :) x
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Really good tips here
Thank you :) x
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Yeah, but you said "sadly bloodlust exists" as a general statement, as if bloodlust shouldn't exist. Even in the context of "fair to play pallets" bloodlust is there for a reason, which is to prevent survivors from extending chases for minutes on end regardless of how "fair" a pallet is.
The game isn't balanced around fair "1 v 1" contests around pallets and loops nor should it be in the first place, there are 4 survivors for a reason and if every one of them could "fairly" outplay the killer for minutes on end then balance is completely turned belly up. The idea is about having an individual survivors capabilities just shy of what the killer can do so that yes, it is possible for a survivor to outplay a killer, but also so that generally speaking: the killer is the one winning these chases forcing a certain amount of teamwork to be necessary in order to come out on top. In this way the game is all about extending chases for as long as possible (not forever) and budgeting time appropriately for saves, heals, totems, travel time, chases, etc. in comparison to how many generators are left.
Not to mention, these pallets are unsafe for a reason, because there's a lot more of them so there's a lot more to work with there, they're not meant for you to stay at and loop for any longer length of time, something you yourself did mention.
And for someone as active on the forums as you I would expect you to know that (referring to first paragraph after first sentence), so no I'm not "implying" anything I'm directly calling you out on your choice of words (which albeit, is very nitpicky and I did agree with everything else you said in that post, but I've written this far I'm not going to bail out now) and what they "imply" as if Bloodlust isn't completely warranted and that it's an unfair mechanic.
Instead, of saying "sadly bloodlust exists" as if to imply bloodlust shouldn't or should be changed somehow, a more appropriate suggestion that I think is very suitable given the context is the idea of creating a second kind of pallet and place them only at unsafe loops. These are heavier, and stun killers for a longer period of time, encouraging survivors to get the stun and rewarding those who play these tiles correctly by giving survivors more time to gain distance and run away. This would also discourage bloodlust
Curiously enough, Scott Jund mentioned this idea in his 2nd ep. of his running series "Idea Review"
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Yo chill, they didn't mean to make it sound like a rant, they were just saying.
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What are you on about? Bloodlust takes so long to become useful that even if it DOES result in you getting down, you've still wasted almost a minute of the killer's time, assuming they dont break the pallet. and if you're healthy, the bloodlust resets, letting you loop again with impunity.
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I already pointed out and acknowledged it was nitpicky in the same comment, as well as mentioned I agreed with most everything he said in his original post except for some poor choice of words which clearly send a wrong message.
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Those you describe are unsafe pallets, they are there to be thrown on the Killer to stun him and run away towards a better loop or towards a low visibility area to attempt a juke/disengage. Learning what pallets are safe and what are not is part of the game for both roles, Ive seen Surviors trying to loop unsafe pallets only to be hit and end in a very bad zone without much chance to reach better tiles and Killers trying to loop safe pallets without breaking only to waste more than 2 minutes while gens popin' like crazy (this last one cost me several nodding facecamps).
As a rule of thumb pallets with short debris/walls are unsafe and pallets with long debris/walls are safe, also unsafe pallets with high walls that block Killer view might be used for a juke or even a disengage if you do it very well.
Post edited by HectorBrando on0 -
Ahh okay ill make sure to learn what pallets are safe and unsafe.
Thank youu :)
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They dont need to imply. They're (or I am) specifically saying that without bloodlust survivors would have almost no trouble running nonstop with no threat except their own fumbles. Which is how it already is for the most part.
In plain text. Sadly? You think killers dont need any compensation to help with the half broken loops that still exist? Or would you like to elaborate on why bloodlust is a bad idea and "sadly" exists. From a non biased standpoint, like I am, if even possible.
Inb4: ___ main. I play both. And as weve argued before, I know you know this.
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I was talking about FAIR Loops. Like Badham. Which I also wrote. You cannot tell me that a Killer needs Bloodlust for those Pallets on Badham which are not in any Building.
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There is a video in Youtube from one guy called Tofu (or something like that, Im awful with names) about pallets, safety, how to mindgame etc thats a very good introduction to the wonderful world of looping/getting looped.
Edit: found the video, its a bit old but I believe almost all in the video is still true today.
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You're a gem 💎❤️
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The whole point of looping is to waste time. That alone means that "doing a pallet loop" isn't useless. Even unsafe pallets can be played, albeit much less effectively than safer ones. The whole point of a pallet is to be a temporary defense that the killer can break. Once the pallet is thrown, it creates a situation for the killer to deal with: they either have to decide to cut their losses and break it (in which case you run and gain a bunch of distance) or they take their chances and try to mindgame it. If you end up getting hit like you say you are, that means that they just ultimately ended up winning. It's not a bad thing necessarily either, killers have the upper hand usually so if you get away just from a pallet, that means you did something really right.
As for before the pallet is thrown, that's a whole other subject. That alone can be a mindgame in itself, whether or not the pallet even gets thrown.
Anyway, like I said, pallets might seem useless because you end up getting hit eventually, but you have to remember every second you're occupying the killer is a second he can't be harassing your group and that increases all survivors' chance of getting out. If anything, knowing how to loop a pallet is actually one of the least useless things you can do, probably behind doing a generator.
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I mean, thats what I wrote:
"E.g. the Outside-Pallets on Badham are fair and not too safe. You can waste some time here, but it is better to not stay at the loop too much. Sadly Bloodlust exists, so those fair Pallets become unfair, since the Killer gets a Speedboost after a while, which makes it even more difficult to play the Pallet or to make it to another Pallet."
This is one whole paragraph. So for me, it is logical that it is all for the same point - Badham Pallets. If that did not get delivered like that, sorry, but for me, it made sense when writing it.
Also, the 1v1 vs 1v4 mentality... Yeah, I know, fanboys of a certain Streamer brought it up. But the individual Skill of a Survivor should never be ignored. It should never be 100% guaranteed that a chase can end quickly, because it is a 1v4. And combining multiple Structures and being efficient with Pallets is the one thing which separates the really good Survivors from the good/mediocre Survivors. A really good Survivor might need to use two Pallets for a long Chase, while a mediocre Survivor needs to use four.
And I think it is also fine that there are Survivors where the Killer should not go on a Chase at this point in a match. This does not mean they should never be able to chase them, but it is a 1v4 - so there are 3 other Survivors who are potentially not as good as the one Survivor the Killer cannot catch OR are at weaker setups.
But, lets come back to Pallets:
In my opinion, Badham has really good Pallets. I am not talking about the School or the House of Pain, I am talking about the Pallets outside. Those are playable by Killers. They dont really need to break them to get a Hit, they can try to outplay the Survivor. The Survivor on the other hand can outplay the Killer as well and can get to the next Pallet.
I am not saying that Bloodlust as a general mechanic needs to be removed. But when it comes to Pallets like this, it makes fair pallets unfair, it does not take that long to get Bloodlust 1 and that should be enough to get a Hit. And while it is a mechanic which is still needed, because not all Pallets are fair, it is a handholding mechanic, after all. And well, bloodlusting Killers are the worse, sure, they will most likely lose and they are not skilled, but it still feels cheap to get hit or downed by this.
Now, when we look at the general Pallet Play, there are two issues in my opinion which affect both sides - there are too less Pallets and Pallets are too safe in general. Too less Pallets simply means, if a Survivor is ressourceful with the Pallets, they are fine. But not every Survivor is ressourceful, they sometimes waste the Pallets (e.g. after they got hit), which makes it unusable for other Survivors, since the Killer will kick the Pallet. Why would he kick it? Because it is too safe to be played.
And this is another thing - with a lot of safe Pallets, the Killer has to wait for the Drop and they have to kick it. For me, this is kinda boring gameplay. I would rather try to outplay a Survivor at an up or thrown Pallet instead of trying to outplay them while the Pallet is up and having to break them, while the Pallet is dropped. The peak of this can be found on The Game - this is w-gameplay on both sides. There are like two Windows on the Map and if we look at the Pallets near the Basement, there is not much Killers or Survivors can do. They press W until the Pallet is thrown, Killer kicks it and thats it. Neither is there any skill involved nor is it really entertaining.
So I think, really few safe Pallets and a bunch of unsafe/fair Pallets (not too unsafe of course, not something like Temple of Purgation downstairs) would be better and more fun to play with. And they would not ######### over Survivors if their teammates are wasting Pallets. Nothing worse than the Rank 15 Meghead who is throwing every safe Pallet for the gold Evader, while everyone else cannot do anything anymore.
And for that, Bloodlust would need to go. If Pallets are playable when thrown, Killers would also not really need Bloodlust IMO. It would also increase the Skill Level on both sides.
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Alright, quickie response:
I have no idea what or who you're insinuating, the primary platform that I consume my Dead By Daylight media is youtube and I rarely if ever watch twitch streams covering Dead By Daylight. The only time I ever do that is when a new chapter comes out or there's a dev stream, and in those situations it simply becomes entirely more convenient to watch it live as it's happening than wait a few hours for people to upload videos about it.
The only streamer I guess you could say I watch on a semi-regular basis is Tru3ta1ent because he uploads the matches played during his stream to youtube and I watch them there, so if the answer is tru3 then I suppose you got that right but I don't ever recall him saying that before.
"But the individual Skill of a Survivor should never be ignored. It should never be 100% guaranteed that a chase can end quickly," -Aven
Yeah, I never said it was a guarantee, I did say that generally speaking killers should be completing their chases and getting downs, because they have four survivors each with 2 hooks to cut through before they can be killed. In fact my exact words prior to that were: "an individual survivors capabilities just shy of what the killer can do so that yes, it is possible for a survivor to outplay a killer" so we both agree, even if our perspectives are slightly different.
I'm not going to deny anything else you said after that, especially since you amended that bloodlust is a necessary mechanic and you don't think it should be removed which was my only qualm about what you said, the logic of everything else is fairly sound. Although I will mention I'm slightly disappointed you didn't comment on the "heavier pallets" idea, I personally thought it was the most interesting part of everything that I previously mentioned. :(
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Dam, y'all still going on abit this petty misunderstanding
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Looping isn’t designed for you to live forever, it’s to delay the inevitable hook to provide your team more time to do what they’re doing.
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Yeah, bloodlust is a bit outdated. The only reason its needed is extremely strong window loops(but only if you dont run Bamboozle). But there are a lot of structures that are bad loops, yet bad killers get looped on there and for their incompetence, they get rewarded. I've been able to loop a pallet Freddy around the central tree in Shelter Woods, and the only reason he got me was because he got Bloodlust 3. He could have easily cut me off twice without bloodlust by using the lack of stagger, but he just ran around the roots.
When I play killer, I rarely get bloodlust in the first place, and when I do, its when I already hit the survivor, losing the bloodlust I just gained.
So really, what true use does bloodlust have other than being a crutch to bad players?
I mean, a survivor sided boost would be if everytime you hook a survivor, they get a haste status effect once they get unhooked. Yet that sounds like its really unneccesary to add in, and quite powerful when bad survivors end up escaping because of that haste effect, while there was a time where getting haste on unhook would've fixed a lot of issues on certain maps. Issues that now are practically inexistent. So yes, sadly bloodlust is still a thing. Its outdated, and once the final 2 "impossible loops" are addressed, it's time to retire that mechanic.
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I propose the following bloodlust rework:
- After 20 seconds of chasing under the same conditions as now (no pallet breaks or whatever) the Killer gets the bloodlust status. No tiers, you either have bloodlust or you don't
- Bloodlust is +0.4 M/S (+10%) BUT also removes the Killers ability to see scratchmarks while it's active
- While the Killer has bloodlust the red stain turns white to signal to the Survivor being chased to hurry up and escape the chase
What this accomplishes:
- Bloodlust takes longer to appear in the first place (15->20 seconds)
- Bloodlust ramps up instantly but not as hard (the proposed speed is the equivalent of tier 2 bloodlust now)
- Bloodlust serves to ensure chases end relatively quickly, but does not ensure that it ends with a Killer successfully hitting the Survivor
That 3rd part is important. As the Survivor, once the Killer has bloodlust it becomes much harder to loop him but much easier to juke him. You can use this opportunity to escape the chase since prolonging it further is extremely risky depending on where you are. Obviously this can be tricky depending on the scenario, but it has to be in order to be balanced.
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All this talk about bloodlust being a "crutch mechanic" rewarded poor players for "incompetence" is so blatantly wrong, not saying that it doesn't happen I see your point and I'l concede that sure, it happens. But it also very clearly actively and purposefully ignores a large and significant part of the picture.
I'm going to point out something that wasn't ever mentioned at any point in this conversation because I honestly didn't think it need to be mentioned because it's pretty obvious, which is that certain killers rely on bloodlust far more heavily than others. Something I neglected to bring up while talking to @Aven_Fallen
It's no secret some killers are better than others, and often in those cases for those "others" they naturally have a power that just doesn't hold up in chases by comparison to some killers.
It's rare to see a Nurse, Spirit, or Hillbilly rely on Bloodlust, however, it's almost like you've forgotten about every other killer that aren't top tier. Killers like Trapper or even Wraith are prime examples of killers who truly suffer in extended chases, if you're in an area where you haven't set up beartraps as a Trapper and you don't have one on hand, you basically have no tools at your disposal to win a chase. Even if you do have one on hand and set it down to cut off a loop, you're just giving the survivor time to move on to the next loop and then you're back at square one. A wraith has his burst of speed coming out of cloak, but oftentimes the time it takes for you to uncloak at all can be enough time for a survivor to just barely make it to a pallet or window.
Other killers like Leatherface, Pig, Plague, Legion, most all of these killers rely on the bloodlust mechanic to make up for their utter lack of chase potential in their own unique ways. Plague without corrupt purge (which is most of the match since nobody cleanses) is an M1 killer, Leatherface be looped like anybody else, Pig's ambush has an incredibly loud audio notification that alerts you to exactly when she's going to rush at you giving you ample time to react, and Legion's power physically cannot down anyone (the most glaring flaw in his kit which not enough people realize, he is the only killer out of the entire roster of 19 that cannot use his power to down a survivor) making him one of the most M1 of all M1 killers.
Hell, even a top tier killer like Oni relies on Bloodlust, especially at the beginning of a trial because he has absolutely no power until he starts hitting people, with his power he has insane snowball potential but without it he's about as m1 as m1 gets. If survivors play ultra sweaty hitting an Oni with long hard loops right at the beginning of a match so he can't even begin to start rolling that snowball it's going to be a bad time for Oni.
In this way bloodlust is entirely a necessary mechanic and for these killers, Bloodlust is far from a "crutch mechanic" as it is absolutely vital for them to get their downs or start applying or begin snowballing any kind of kind of pressure in a match. And it's not like I mentioned every single killer or every single instance a killer might need bloodlust, I hadn't even bothered to mention mid-tier killers like Myers who also is a loopable killer who often relies on bloodlust to finish his chases, or a Clown without bottles or Huntress without hatchets also rely on this mechanic.
So to say or even to imply that bloodlust has "no use other than for being a crutch to bad players" is absolutely and exceptionally ignorant.
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Oh yeah, regarding the Heavier Pallets:
I have not watched the video again, I have watched it when it got released. Following Scott on Youtube as well. But since I forgot to answer to this point, I just rewatched it:
Personally, I think that the heavier Pallets are a good idea to make unsafe Pallets more valuable. It would also give something new to an already existing game mechanic.
However, I have a few questionmarks regarding this:
When I think of an unsafe Pallet, the first ones that come to my mind are Hawkins or stuff like the Pallets which are near the Cathedral on Chapel or the one Scott mentioned or the two Pallets which are useable without the Gen being powered in the Basement of the Temple of Purgation. Those are useless, they are horrible. Making them more playable would be great, that is for sure. However, and this is how they are already designed, the Survivor needs to get the Stun, otherwise he will get hit. What about Killers who respect the ######### out of Pallets? This does also happen at Red Ranks and with the heavier Pallets on unsafe Loops, it would make them not really valuable again. However, it is debateable how much of an impact that would be, because in the end it can be smarter to respect heavier Pallets. Just a point I wanted to mention.
What is more important - how long should the Stun be? Scott mentioned 2 seconds more, so 4 seconds instead of 2. Meaning that Enduring would cut it to 2 seconds, which is the current Stun for regular Pallets. But wouldnt Enduring not become too mandatory? I personally like the Perk anyway and use it on almost every M1-Killer, but 4 second Stun sounds a lot, especially when it can happen quite often on Maps like Hawkins.
And last but not least, if this would be implemented, they would need to fix Hits through Pallets so that they actually can be useful. And, equally important, Pallet Stuns need to connect on the Killers end as well, I can imagine it would be very frustrating to get a 4 second Stun while not even near the Pallet on the Killers Screen.
But overall, I like the idea. And it would not make Structures too strong, because if the Survivor stays at the Pallet, it is playable for the Killer.
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The hits through pallets thing from my understanding has to do with dedicated servers and latency from my understanding, much like the situation with hits at windows, what registers, what doesn't how, to reduce the discrepancy between the images of what the killer and the survivor sees on their own respective screens, etc.
Which is a really big and complicated issue, one that is very much going to be solved over the long-term rather than a single patch / update and "oh look it's fixed" that's not how that's going to pan out.
With that in mind I don't think long term problems like latency should impede the implementation of cool mechanics like this, the tool should still be put into the game so that at the very least it can be used some of the time, even if it doesn't work all the time. Striving for improvement, not perfection.
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