Why did Ruin get nerfed for being "overused"?
If I'm not mistaken, a little while ago some guy did a test of like 100 matches and ended up concluding that perks like Adrenaline and DS, were used in almost every single match. Wasn't it in like the 70s or 80s as far as usage at high ranks?
I'm not even saying DS should be nerfed. But it does show that sometimes these perks aren't looked at in the same light and I wonder why.
Comments
-
It was an excuse and nothing more.
The developers have a chronic lying issue that is going to eventually blow up on them.
80 -
Survivors good, killers bad.
63 -
That was one of the reasons of many, not the sole reason.
7 -
I'm a 50/50 player. So it doesn't bother me too much since I get to enjoy both sides, but it still does concern me.
13 -
Was that really the reason they justified the ruin nerf? I remembered they said "because it punishes noobs more than veteran survivors" but I might remember it wrong because it's been to long ago for me
Post edited by DwightOP on19 -
I'm still pretty new player. 1,5 months spent learning to play killers (mostly Billy tbh) and after todays PTB, seeing how devs decide to butcher Billy before doing anything about gen speed or problems with matchmaking makes me furious. Playing survivor is stupid easy in current state of the game and ruin spawning most of the time right at survivors feet is just icing on the cake. I have tried multiple hex builds but it really doesn't make a difference. Killers have to either A) always use corrupt to get a chance or B) be actually good at the game. Survivors however get million second chances and I've seen people seeing asking for totem counter because of NOED is in the game, which is mostly used by lower rank killers. Why can't killers get hook counters or timers on DS? Oh and killers also have to play fairly and make the game fun for 4 players or they can be as toxic as they want because killer played scummy.
9 -
They changed the reason over 5 times from what I remember from the posts.
They didn't say they were other reasons but that flat out stated multiple conflicting things were the main sole reason for the nerf. Aka they couldn't keep their lies straight.
7 -
Same reason nerfing Oni's blood was because of a "bug that we just decided was a bug just this instant and never before"
5 -
In red ranks, it was used in over 80% of games. But that was only an indicator that we should look at it.
Full article on Ruin:
Short version:
We took a close look at the perk to identify what makes it so frustrating to play against. Three key issues were identified:
- Its punishment of new players or those who can't hit Great Skill Checks. Newer players trying to help veterans with generator repairs tend to make the situation worse rather than better.
- The passive nature of the gameplay pressure it provides means that there is a huge amount of potential with very little effort or risk on behalf of The Killer.
- Its inconsistency due to the random nature of the appearance interval of skill checks.
21 -
One persons experiences does not account for full representation across all games.
The most used survivor perk was Self Care which I think every killer is happy to see survivors bring!
As for Ruin - it was found to only effect new players significantly and barely noticed by veteran players. It was also a passive perk that would work consistently without having to do anything.
3 -
Oh god, how do you always manage to give the worse responses on the worst places?
23 -
- So new survivors should not learn how to hit great skill checks but new killers can be used as cannon fodder?
- Survivors get huge amount of potential with extremely little effort.
- So it was better to make ruin spawn at survivors feet 90% of the time and make it useless?
50 -
It was one of multiple reasons, with other reasons being that it was too strong against new players but weak against experienced players, and that the unpredictable nature of skill checks meant that power of the perk varied dramatically game by game (though no buff to Autodidact yet...)
I doubt they would change a perk based on usage alone. I remember them saying that Lithe was one of the most popular perks in the game but obviously that doesn't need nerfing. Perks usage change all the time even without directly changing them. Adrenaline isn't used as much as before because the meta back there was to rush gens while injured, which isn't done as often anymore. On the other hand, Play with your Food was considered useless a long while ago but became more popular due to streamers and new perks like Nemesis.
I do think that some perks like DS could use a little tuning, but if they do change them I bet that the usage rate would be one of the lesser reasons why. There were a lot of reasons why Ruin was changed but people only really seem to remember the "80% usage in red ranks" one.
6 -
Outside of swfs
Why are veterans and new players in the same match anyway to even have "situations being worse rather than better"
5 -
The part of this that bothers me is you asked "why is it so frustrating to play against" and not "why do so many killers feel its necessary" and further, by that logic, why dont you ask "why is ds so frustrating to play against" or "why is bt so frustrating to play against?" I noticed you asked "why is Billy so frustrating to play against" though.
28 -
lmao.
4 -
It truly blows my mind. Their communication on why they were nerfing it, not even tge act itself, caused me to uninstall the game for like 3 months
9 -
Well they did ask "why do so many killers feel it's necessary". In the following patches they nerfed coop repair and great skill check bonuses while also balancing the more problematic maps towards killers. They have also said that they will do something to make the beginning of the game less frustrating for killers in their anniversary streams.
It's fair to ask these questions about DS and BT but don't pretend they nerfed Ruin and left it at that.
12 -
Yeah months later and those changes had little to no impact on match speeds which means were still waiting for them to address the reason people ran it ultimately. We'll see what happens to tge beginning of tge match and how much differencd that makes
And for the record i think ds and bt are mostly fine its just the principal of how they go about their communication and decision making
8 -
Personally I think looking at what they have done since the ruin nerf which are related to generators.
With the removal of the passive effect it provided them with solid numbers on how fast generators are without ruin passively impacting the speeds throughout the match. Then with those numbers in mind the toolboxes can be looked at with how they impact gen speeds. Followed then by a toolbox nerf.
With toolboxes nerfed they could then take a look at other factors impacting speed, such as great skill checks and multiple people stacking on generators. I assume after that they were able to identify several changes that would address those issues and voila.
Seeing threads like these while justified given the written explanation they had for the change, I feel overlook everything that has most likely happened because of ruin's change.
9 -
They could have done all of that in ptb and spent a few months making tweaks then released all those changes at once slong with the ruin nerf. As it stands it SEEMS like they did a stupid thing that greatly impacted the game and drove players away and then said "#########, lets try nerfing a fes things" (not saying thats what happened but thats what it looks like)
6 -
Peanits gave good points as to why ruin needed to be changed, but you guys just laughed him off most of the time and made fun of him because he did not gave you the answers you wanted.
9 -
In other words, it was changed to cater to new players who can't hit skill checks instead of balancing the game at the standard level of play.
3 -
I didnt see what peanits said, i wasnt on the forums back then. What I saw was the official communication that was put out that read like "######### people who play killer, we need to make sure baby survivors hace fun"
12 -
There is alot of issues within the logic provided here and even in the question itself. Someone else highlighted the flaw in the question aspect and some outlined a little in the "key issues."
- If players are in red ranks and know they cannot themselves play against Ruin effectively they have the option to hunt down the totem and cleanse it. Its in the players' choice and knowledge of their own playstyle to play against a weakness. Also the Veteran play could look for the totem themselves, move to another gen (which is more effective then sitting on the same gen in most instances mind you.), or just man it out considering 5% isn't that much when two people are working on one given gen.
- There are perks currently in the game that work with this same logic in mind. Examples: Corrupt Intervention, Hex: Retribution, Hex: Haunted Grounds, etc. While the effort is minimal for using these perks they always have a risk to them. Hexes can be cleansed, Corrupt Intervention has a timer and once they are gone. They are gone for the rest the game meaning you now either have 3 or less perks remaining.
- There are other perks in the game that use the "inconsistency" of skill checks. Examples: Autodidact and Hex: Huntress Lullaby.
12 -
Really? I thought that they did make some change. I even forgot about toolboxes, which were one of the big problems with the fast repair speed, were changed in the last few patches. Maybe the above two changes are minimal, but the toolbox change made a big impact in the total gen speed, in my opinion. Of course it's impossible to say without any hard data.
Yeah I agree though their communication gets picked apart by the community. I remember when everyone was saying that doctor was nerfed because the dev post went on and on about how survivors found it hard to play against. Although I do feel sorry for them as I find that a lot of their communication gets quoted out of context which causes loads of misinformation. I remember when people got mad about them saying in an old dev stream that they were considering making slowdown perks not synergize, without hearing the next line about how they wanted to make them stronger individually. Or when they did that livestream about dedicated servers and all people got out of that was "LaTeNcY" memes for months. I don't agree with all their decisions but I do feel sorry for them when hey get misquoted all the time on the forums and reddit.
8 -
The tool box change was so miniscule. Run a commodius with a bnp and watch how quick you get half a gen done. It had more of an impact on brown toolboxes which are basically useless now, and they have to be used a littke smarter, but tge change is almost nothing overall.
Their communication at times as absolutely atricious. Yes, its bullshit when people misquote them, that doesnt change how bad it is at times. That ruin notice was some of tge worst ive ever seen from a company. At least one i was actively giving my money to
6 -
thanks, you guys are ruining the game with your nerffs and preferences with the toxic and weeping community but thanks
1 -
Geez, people are still complaining about the Ruin nerf? It's been several months and the change was a good one. Get over it.
Ruin is still a solid perk and I think they did a great job with the rework. They also buffed Pop and nerfed coop repairs and toolboxes around the time they nerfed Ruin, so don't forget that.
Pop is more fair than old Ruin because it requires the killer to have half a brain to get good use out of it, but I actually liked playing against old Ruin more than I like playing against Pop. On most maps you could just find the totem and then your mid and late game was pretty easy. Meanwhile Pop is useless in the early game, but it is often overwhelming in the late game if survivors aren't good enough with their gen spacing (doesn't need to be a three gen; an in-between layout is enough). Also, unlike Ruin there's not much survivors can really do about it unless they're already ahead at that point. In a SWF it's easy on most maps to make sure you're spacing your gens far apart in the late game, but good luck doing that on a map like The Game or as a solo queue survivor.
Post edited by notstarboard on4 -
True they definitely could have done it all at once but the results on the PTB are from a small portion of the community and people always have issues finding serious games on the ptb that aren't without one dc or people throwing just because. In my opinion the results they got from pushing the ruin change onto live servers which effect everyone not just on steam.
It definitely seems like it was stupid but I certainly couldn't expect the changes made following the ruin change if they didn't have accurate data on how fast gen speeds were on every level and how toolboxes were without the passive slowdown ruin did.
2 -
"We don't want to punish new players...except we'll still go ahead and let red rank survivors choose to face rank 20 killers."
Yeah, because when you say "players" you mean "survivors". Killers are just there to add some flavor to the real game.
9 -
I disagree that the toolbox change was miniscule. Take a commodious toolbox for example. Looking at the wiki the commodious toolbox saved the same amount of time for a single generator pre and post change, around 10 seconds. However the new commodious only worked for half a gen, while the old one worked for two and a half gens. The old commodious would save around 25 seconds total when used fully, not taking into account add-ons. That's a difference of 15 seconds between pre and post nerf. In DBD 15 seconds can mean the difference between a win or lose. Of course whether that's significant for you is only decided by you.
As for communication one problem is that they can be one sided when explaining a change. The Ruin and Doctor posts are viewed from a mainly survivor sided view, even though doctor got a massive buff overall. The hillbilly dev post wasn't bad in my opinion as they stated that they were mostly happy with his playstyle, but the problem there is that some people think they changed his playstyle too much. Now I don't want to talk about his overheat as I don't play Billy, but I do think that his add-ons are too weak at the current moment and that they need a buff. Of course it doesn't help that people love to overreact about the changes. It happened with Doctor, it happened with sabo and it's happening again.
5 -
Yeah 15 seconds isnt sognificant imo. The games that are close enough to be decided by 15 seconds are very few and far between. Most games its either killer wins with 1 or 2 gens left, or all the gens get done and 3 to 4 escape. Im not saying theres nothing in between theyre just more rare from my experience
1 -
I personally disagree as 15 seconds is almost 20% of a generator which could mean the difference between them finishing it or interrupting then to pop the gen. Although I say we have to agree to disagree.
5 -
This is the thing that gets the people upset: you said 80% usage is the thing why you looked at it and then you figure out what makes it frustrating, while the correct question would be why it is used in 80% of the games.
4 -
Also introducing another perk with Gearhead (nb after the Ruin change) that triggers on skillchecks
3 -
It was stupid af and was too volatile
It punished newer players
Prevented vets from doing anything with newer players
It was a gamble as to how well it would work because skill checks are inconsistent.
It made no sense as a perk. It's better now on killers who can actually keep up pressure like Billy, Nurse, Spirit, Oni, etc.
2 -
Are you being serious?
The totem placements are absolutely stupid so hex:ruin is normally cleansed within the first couple of minutes of the match anyway. So the fact that you are saying that it is more useful late game doesn't make sense. I think I will be lucky if my hex:ruin is still up end game in 1/30 matches. I had a game earlier where both of my totems were right next to gens. As in, you could be doing a gen, turn your head and see a totem. Maybe there should be a line of code that means that live totems are never placed directly next to gens. Just a thought.
There are perks that you will come across most survivors running. Almost every single game. Have you taken a look at any of those and if so what plans do you have to remedy this.
Have you guys come up with a plan regarding SWF balancing. As I am seeing it, you are making the game easier and easier and easier for survivors whislt taking away a killers best tools. Any thoughts on what could be done to limit the usefulness of having a full squad.
Maybe have a separate lobby for SWF teams. Make it so that survivors can join 2 queues? One where you can play with friends and earn limited bloodpoints and a solo lobby. The solo lobby would have be devoid of the plus symbols or friends list. Making it impossible to add friends.
Or maybe make it so that if an SWF group is detected then the killer automatically gets the corruption perk on top of the other perks they are running.
1 -
Funny how you misspelled survivors as newer players. Glad I could help you with that.
0 -
The issue wasnt that it was changed. Its that it was changed without compensating/addressing why it was needed so much and and the communication that came with it. It would be like if they completely changed bt tomorrow and their reason was "its to frustrating for new killers to play against" people would lose their ######### no matter what other reasons they gave and if thd change was valid or not (note: bt is fine, that was just an example)
2 -
So what about if a killer new to the game eats a DS?
7 -
Worse, what if a new killer gets hit with a deliverance/ds combo 10 feet from an open exit gate
2 -
Guess you should've just hooked that guy earlier in the game 4head /s
4 -
😂
1 -
u mean people dont like to learn to use skillchecks or clean totems so u ruined ruin lel, make sense mate... as survivor i hit all those skillchecks so it didnt bother me at all, it was very cool but now skillchecks on gens are child play. so meh thats boring gameplay right there genrushing aint fun.
0 -
they ruined ruin for the sake of the lower ranks because they were lazy and didnt look for totems, actually they should have better guide to teach them how to cleanse hex totems instad of nerfing ruin.
0 -
They said it was nerfed because of passive pressure but resilience is a passive perk is it going to get nerfed because it gives passive gen and chase pressure with faster vaults. Im being sarcastic but still only the new people were upset because the tutorial didnt teach what hex perks are
0 -
- Why are nubs being matched with Vets? Only time I see that is when vets would group up with them to get easier games to boost their ranks.
- The risk is the totem spawning beside a gen or out in the open because totem spawns are trash. especially if they get it at the start of the match which would also leave a killer with a wasted perk slot.
- I have done a few gens with only 3 skill checks popping up and sometimes I wouldn't even get 1 when playing survivor. It felt like a killer running ruin just buffed skill checks so people could fly through it easier (which most high ranks did) so I don't know where you're getting your information from but it doesn't seem right to me.
0 -
yea... but that dedicated server meme is still true. still rely on your internet being good enough or for some reason the game matches you up with some random server that's no where near you. I like the Doc changes though, a killer should be able to gain some information to decide what to do next.
0 -
Just a quick question, what do you guys think of how Ruin is doing now? I am genuinely curious, and I've switched over to playing almost entirely Survivor, so I hope I'm not biased either way!
0
