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No Mither Balance Idea: Not my idea, but I agree with it!
Instead of No Mither being activated from the start of the game, it will activate once you've been hit. From that point on, you'll have the broken status.
Comments
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I'd like to add on to this: You have the broken status and everyone but the killer can see it.
This way from the killer POV it's just some survivor who didn't want to heal all game and you're less likely to tunnel them out of the game.
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No Mither is already balanced. You have an unlimited amount of times you can pick yourself up from the dying state, AND it removes your trails of blood.
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What I don't understand is no mither is not supposed to leave trails of blood but will leave blood orbs for the oni. I do think no mither should have grunts of pain reduced by 100%, like iron will, and should counter the oni's ability.
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No Mither is a high risk, high reward type of perk.
Unpopular opinion: the reward of infinite sneakiness is too much to be compensated with anything properly.
I don't like it in its current spot, but I wouldn't want to face all those P3 Claudettes running No Mither, Iron Will and Urban Evasion over and over again, if it was actually good. Matches are gonna be boring as hell.
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Respectfully disagree. The purpose of the perk is to allow a survivor to get up unlimited times, with the tradeoff being that they remain injured and will grunt (if they don't want to grunt, then they must sacrifice a perk slot and use iron will). So the killer should have to injure a survivor in order for the perk to activate, as it serves no purpose otherwise. "No Mither's" sole power is entirely dependent on the how the killer chooses to play the match. If a killer sees a survivor is broken from the start of the match, then they know exactly why and what the perk will do. Any other perk requires actually playing the game and interacting with another play to determine their build (the survivor took off, therefore they have sprint burst. The killer made a beeline here after hooking, they have BBQ). You have to work for the knowledge. That doesn't happen with "No Mither."
And as its power is based solely on the play style of the killer, it is often rendered entirely moot. I have rarely met a killer who did not hook a "no mither" survivor immediately. Why? Because they know exactly what will happen if they don't. Removing the broken status from the start of the game will make it more balanced.
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well it would be dumb if No Mither didn't give Oni blood, how else would he get it from that survivor? If all 4 run it then Oni has no power.
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I heard an idea about that before. It was something like, no mither would still leave trails of blood for the Oni, but NOT to the same degree. The reasoning was that if no mither was buffed to leave no orbs, then it would render his power completely moot, which doesn't seem balanced. But a slower supply of orbs (since he doesn't "work" for it) would be a bit more fair. I think that's worth exploring, but I'm not in the "Yeah, that's perfect! Why didn't the devs think of that?" camp either. Definitely worth fleshing out though. I could see that as being a reasonable compromise.
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They are one hit down with no mither. Why would all four people be running no mither though? Stealth killers have a counter with spine chill. No mither ruins Michael Myers power, what's the point in stalking an injured survivor to tier 3.
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You Start the Trial Healthy, However whenever you take a hit. You are affected by the Broken
Status Effect for the duration of the Trial. The survivors will see the Broken Status Effect, However the killer will not, Your thick blood coagulates practically instantly.
- You do not leave Pools of Blood
- .Grunts of Pain caused by injuries are reduced by 50/75/100 % at any time.
- Grants the ability to fully recover from the Dying State
- Bonus Points in boldness increased by 25/50/50 %
This is what i'd like to see No Mither changed to..
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Hmm. That's a fair point. I keep going back and forth on it. The more I think about it, the more torn I get. I could see why Killers would have a problem with it, but it does have some merit, too. Hmmm. I'm not sure. Good point, though.
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The majority of people using NM are not using it for its ‘Unbreakable’ effect. Those that are using it for that reason are probably just running meme builds like “You can’t hook me”.
NM’s biggest strength is the hidden blood trails. This eliminates a vital tracking tool for the killer player, especially with synergies like Iron Will to capitalize on it. Even more so, the sounds in this game are a bit “off” we’ll say (trying to be nice :P), so the blood is a very useful tracking tool for stealthy players if the killer isn’t facing a Doctor or a killer using Stridor.
I’m not saying NM is Godly because a killer can’t track without a blood trail, nothing can be further from the truth. But it IS a big enough asset to a survivor to warrant a forever ‘Broken’ status.
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I think that's a fair assessment. I still believe a killer should have to work for that initial hit, though, because if they hit you one time, then you are forever broken, and everything you've said is still true. But that was an interesting perspective. Granted, killers mostly use scratch marks for tracking so unless you're walking *and* have iron will, it'd be hard to juke with "no mither" alone. But on that note, do you know how long it takes for trails of blood to disappear vs scratch marks? I honestly don't. Knowing that could provide better context. But, thanks for commenting!
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You can't have your recovery hidden at the same time as still getting the benefits of being healthy initially.
The point of no mother is that just somebody that the killer can't risk slugging because you can get up infinitely this limits to kill his choices when downing you.
Sorry to say this but being permanently injured is not worth all the positives you listed especially considering we live in a meta where people don't heal anyway.
Especially if you're planning on takeaway all tracking capabilities beside scratch marks you're going to need a bigger down side then injured for broken symbol is that downside
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What would the perk (as you've changed it) do with respect to the Oni's power? Stay the same as is or be altered?
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I cannot say the precise digits, but about 3 seconds base game. However, this is altered by the Hemmorage status effect and perks like Bloodhound, which allows blood to stay visible up to 4 seconds longer.
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It would still drop blood orbs, Don't want the 100% risk free,
The point is if the killer notices you've been Injured for the rest of the game, you'll think he just doesn't want to be healed in the long run, Plus this would reduce slugging by a Hellova amount if they don't see your broken status icon,
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That's not the point every perk is supposed to at least have some bit of tell that they have it.
When it comes to the perk no mither it completely challenges The Killers attempts to slug they evil leave you on the ground and you get up for free or they pick you up and lose a lot of slug pressure.
I'll see this again staying insured all match is not a comparable trade off to all the benefits that were in you post. When you have people who are not used to healing on a regular basis that is not a decent trade off.
When a killer downs a person with no mither they have to make a decision either leave that person down on the ground to mildly waste their time as they have to recover or pick them up because they're going to get up anyway and no one's going to waste a time picking them up.
Especially if you're going to say the survivor initially starts of healthy either you have your healthy bonus with no symbol but aside from that the perk basically stays the same or you have the extra benefits that you listed but you still retain the broken symbol
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Where's the balance?
What are the chances the killer let's a downed No Mither user alone to get back up than just pick up and hook them instead? It's a slim chance. Making No Mither pointless (without at least DS) as it is.
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I'd like to see it reworked in a different way. Even if you're broken after the first hit, the killer can still see that on the HUD. They could make it so that the killer can't see the broken status, but I don't like that solution. I don't think the HUD should ever lie, and I also feel like selectively making the HUD lie could cause weird edge case behavior with other things that cause Broken, like Deliverance or Plague's power. I'd expect a lot of bugs and general confusion around that.
I have a couple of thoughts about how you could update it, depending on what kind of a perk it's intended to be.
- If it's meant as a challenge for extremely competent survivors, add bonus in-game bloodpoints in all categories. This would make it pair really well with WGLF, another David perk, and give really skilled survivors an incentive to take it easy on killers. I know I'd gladly run this build when playing with lower rank teammates in a SWF.
- If it's meant as a high risk / high reward perk that's actually supposed to be functional, add a small movement speed buff (~3%). If a survivor is really confident in their looping ability this would have excellent synergy with perks like Resilience which also make you more effective while injured and also help you in a chase. If you make a mistake you'd be punished quickly, but you could be a menace if you looped well. With this slight movement speed boost I could imagine running No Mither, Resilience, Dead Hard, and Spine Chill/This Is Not Happening/Hope (hello 110% movement speed after the gates are powered!). I think that'd be a blast.
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Currently you’re kinda screwed if you go against Oni with this perk. I think a fair change would be to have no blood orbs, but if Oni downs you then you spew out LOADS of them in a bloody-orby explosion! This rewards Oni for downing you without his normal tracking via orb, and doesn’t give you away and feed Oni from the get-go.
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I like your ideas, especially the second one. I still think the perk should not trigger until the killer lands an initial hit, but a rework the way you suggested could also be applied to the original idea. But to be clear, since I believe the perk should activate after being hit, I'm not saying the haste buff should be a constant. It also would only activate after the perk was triggered with the initial hit.
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That's for any killer. 4 of the same perk should not nullify any killers power.
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3 things.
- I play Killer a lot. Yet I can only distinctly remember 2 times I've ever found a Survivor solely because of their blood trails without the use of blood hound or the wraith/spirits blood addon. Usually I find injured Survivors by sound first instead.
- If the effect is so strong then why not run Lucky Break?
- It doesn't actually matter how strong the effect is, because a healed Survivor automatically has the effect.
Without no mither it goes like this:
- Healthy - No blood trails
- Injured - Blood trails
- Downed - Blood trails
With no mither it is instead like this:
- Injured - No blood trails
- Downed - Blood trails
The issue being that the initial state you would be in when entering a chase is the same both with and without no mither. The only thing no mither does is effectively cut out the intermediary injured state by making you always injured and removing the downsides of being injured, making it as if you were always healthy until you are hit, which is already true anyways of healthy Survivors.
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The Hud already lies through effects like diversion and red herring.
A simple fix for potential bugs would be to make it so it would hide ALL sources of broken, and thus as Killer if your broken effects aren't appearing to go through then you know the Survivor has NM.
As for the changes you are suggesting. A bloodpoint boost theoretically works, however it feels like a waste of a perk concept. Permanent extra movement speed is far more useful than a 2nd health state. You'd likely be able to infinite some Killers even with only 3%. Running in a straight line you'd extend every chase by slightly over 20% and more importantly in loops you'd be able to chain tiles that would otherwise be impossible to chain indefinitely, since unlike with exhaustion perks a permanent speed boost doesn't have a finite value in a chase.
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That's an interesting idea. I wonder how Oni mains would feel about that. I think some of them would prefer to have the orbs spaced out, instead of in a central location, because it makes it easier to access them throughout the map (which makes it easier to use the power). Especially since he can only collect so many orbs before he's unable to absorb more, an all out "explosion" in one spot would only do so much. To combat that, I wonder if the "explosion" would work better if the orbs then spaced outward. However, I doubt the devs would want to code for that animation, unfortunately.
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On a stream recently I saw someone make a suggestion I liked: Rather then No Mither giving permanent Broken status, it gives permanent Exposed status.
It fixes one big issue with NM: the Killer tunneling the No Mither because they know from the start that it's there. In fact, if the Killer isn't paying attention or gets the No Mither with an Instadown or Plague sickness, they might never realize it's in effect. It also prevents No Mither from giving Oni instant blood orbs since you start healthy and being Exposed instead of Broken offers the option of healing.
If you are injured, such as freshly saved from a hook or picking yourself up, the No Mither injured benefits still kick in, offering a tactical angle of healing to keep better hidden or staying injured with lower risk than normal.
My own idea has always just been a bonus to Boldness and/or Survival points the way perks like No One Left Behind, Distressing or Hex: Thrill of the Hunt offer bonus points.
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I’d be highly against this. I use No Mither paired with Resilience for faster actions, so I don’t want to have to get injured first for it to be activated. The only thing I personally want changed is constantly hearing the dying state music. I think it should only activate once you’re on the ground. Nothing else needs to be touched.
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Waste of two perk slots to be honest
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In your opinion, but not to me. I have a lot of fun using that build and it makes getting gens done a lot easier in solo lobbies.
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AND screams at the killer that you have it so you will never be slugged. Balanced.
No mither needs to be buffed. The killer should not see the broken status icon and the survivor should start healthy. After being hit they can't heal back to full health.
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If the purpose is to be perpetually injured solely so resilience kicks in for gen repair time, why not use prove thyself/leader? If you're putting two perk slots in already (resilience + no mither), you could add Better Together if you're afraid you'd be doing mostly solo gens.
Personally, I've found combining spine chill w/resilience (over no mither) was strong because it created more efficient vaults, which protected me in loops (as well as opening gates, doing gens, etc.). Counteracting latency issues is arguably a bigger issue than boosting gen speeds (both killer and survivor complain about latency, only killers complain gens are already too fast, hence the toolbox nerfs). Think of the spine chill + resilience combo another way. If I am injured, I, too, have resilience. I don't have no mither, true, but I could 99% my heal with a medkit. Let's say the killer is coming (because he can hear my grunts or gen repairing). My spine chill goes off, which then boosts the gen speed even more. Then if I'm afraid of taking a down, I immediately finish my 1% heal and can take another hit. I could not get the additional boost in gen repair time and finish the heal with no mither, but I have gotten more points, saved myself from a down, and boosted my gen repair speed even more.
I know we all have to play according to our own styles, so I'm not saying I'm for sure right and you're wrong. I'm just saying that because of this difference in play style, I'm struggling to see why the proposed change would negatively impact your play style so strongly. If you truly do not mind the killer knowing you have no mither from the start (which means you also don't mind the risk of being tunneled/immediately hooked), then why not take a hit quickly in the game? You'd then be able to play w/no mither and resilience as you always did. Yes, you'd have to "find" the killer first, but if you're not trying to be a stealthy survivor, you can easily find him (and score some escaped chase points). If your fear is you don't want to get hit simply to risk getting downed and hooked, then why use no mither to begin with? It is, in essence, a perpetual exposed status and you make grunts, giving away your location easily. Unless you are great at looping, or in a coms SWF, it just seems like there are other ways to boost gen speed that could be more efficient than no mither and resilience together. (And if you are looping, you're not doing the gens anyway, You're busy wasting the killer's time).
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Hmmm, that's an interesting idea. I never heard it before.
The more I think about it, the more I go back and forth on that. So you're permanently exposed, but you can be healed AND recover from the dying state unlimited times? I think killer mains might say that's too beneficial to the survivor. No mither, as it is, is permanent injury (and by design, noise making) with the benefit that you get yourself up unlimited times. We know that doesn't happen in actual game play, but it's supposed to be an equal tradeoff.
I could see an argument being made that if "no mither" was changed to be a permanent exposed status (with the benefit of being able to be healed and recover unlimited times), that a balance would have to be that if the survivor was injured that they would either A, suffer from the broken status for a set period of time or B, be healed at a slower rate (slower than self-care).
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Yeah, that’s a valid concern, so yes, I agree they should explode outward, but still have most of them in the middle. As an Oni, you’d be guaranteed a full charge every time you down somebody with No Mither, even if you start at zero. Knowing a place to find a stash of more is useful as well. You’ll get your other orbs spread out around the map later while chasing the others.
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You're one of four on your team. On average, if you're running it with resilience, the gens are getting done 2.25% faster; and if they have thanatophobia, this combination of perks is a net detriment to the team. It's not as bad with decisive strike because it forces the killer to just eat it, but usually that's not getting activated unless you're getting tunneled. You get insta-downed. Killers can just pick you up otherwise. It's a trash perk that I'm more than happy to go against.
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