Stop using "fun" as a metric
Since Scott's new video, there have been a lot of discussions about what killers are "fun" or "unfun" to play against (fun usually just meaning "easy to bully"). I don't think the use of this metric will yield any positive changes if it's normalized and the balance team starts reading into these threads. I know I'm going to get responses along the lines of "Its not a competitive game", but the fact that it's PvP-only means that this game is, whether intentionally or not, competitive. And in a competitive setting, balance is the first priority. This game's playerbase has a lot of overlap with the fighting game community (IE Tru3ta1ent), which is about as competitive as gaming gets.
The thought of Deathslinger being changed to be more "fun" in the eyes of survivors haunts me. He's already a skill-based killer that requires movement prediction, pop-shotting and player reading to perform well with. I wouldn't put these devs above giving him a huntress-like directional terror radius to make him a straight downgrade, for the sake of "fun".
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Yes like as a killer player I am not here to entertain the survivors or care the least about their "fun".
Besides, they just don't want to get good and use "fun" as an excuse. Killers have to learn multiple powers each with steep learning curve, survivors just want to hold M1 and "loop" and that's it, escape all games with second chance perks.
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being easy to bully is not what we mean by killers not being fun. Idk about you but you don't bully a good Billy, the Billy will absolutely crush you if you don't play well, yet a lot of people love playing against him because his power is fun for both sides.
And also why shouldn't fun be considered at all? If a killer, or the game itself, isn't fun, why on earth would you expect a survivor to be ok going against your Deathslinger, Spirit etc? A lot of killers are following a trend of being meh overall, but having a ridiculously oppressive chase power. It's not hard to win against most killers, I'll bet a lot of above-average survivors will win with ease against Pyramid Head, Deathslinger, Hag etc, but actually interacting with them is a ######### miserable experience. Why even play at that point when your skill and input as a survivor means absolutely nothing and you're just hoping the killer is bad to have a chase longer than 10 seconds?
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It is very annoying isn't it?
People will literally try and tell you something isnt fun, despite you having fun doing it.
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Yet they rate Freddy, Oni and Spirit (the good killers) as unfun while clown, trapper and huntress (easy to bully) are at the top of their lists
Please tell me what the problem with deathslinger is then
And he tops the comment off with an ad-hominem
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Spirit is kinda understandable, but deathslinger,,, ohhh boy. The amount of people who verse one good deathslinger and get destroyed and now want him nerfed/"adjusted" really shows. Scott being no exception as the arguments he makes seems as hes bad against him.
Now there's two different types of killers, "objectively" and "personally" annoying killers.
"personally" I find Myers extremely annoying, it's controversial, but that's me, I'm not saying he IS annoying, as many other people find him fun, but I don't. "objectively" annoying killer would be an example of old Legion that you couldn't do anything against. Deathslinger is not "objectively" annoying.
Deathslinger is only annoying if it's either a godly one who can read everything you do on a good map, or your bad against him. And i'm guessing a solid 90% of the people who complain aren't very good against him.
And, If were gonna complain only about godly deathslingers, then we also have to complain about huntress, nurse, hag, etc..
(Also this whole "fun" metric started when old legion was introduced).
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Scott says in his own video that he finds Clown unfun/boring despite finding him weak overall though, to be fair. There's not always a correlation between strength and "fun level". When people say they don't have fun vs Legion and Doctor it's a similar thing, for Doc in particular sometimes it has nothing to do with his strength at all and it's just because they find the madness screen effects and screaming annoying or even straight up headache-inducing.
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"Yes like as a killer player I am not here to entertain the survivors or care the least about their "fun"."
So I expect you to not complain about survivors who tbag or bring meta builds, or those who rush gens because they're the survivor player, they're not here to entertain the killer or care the least about their "fun".
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Also a lot of things survivors can do arent fun and interactive as well for the killer.
DS+ unbreakable= unfun and not interactive
4 BNP= unfun and not interactive.
Why even play this game when in both situations there is no interactions and you Just hope the survivors make big mistakes.
If we really got to nerf Killers because they they arent interactive then this should also apply to survivors items and perks.
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Did you ever see me saying that they are not "fun"? I call them noobs who abuse mechanic and literal cheaters (voice comms SWF) who are trying so damned hard on this game -while obviously playing casual mode- because they know they have the upper hand. Or let them play other balanced team PvP games and we will see how it goes.
Also, 90% of survivors already gen rush, use meta perks, so....
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I'm speaking more of the community-made fun tier-lists that I've seen on the forums and facebook today. I've tried to post an image in several formats but I keep getting an error. Generally the bottom of the tier lists are taken up by Doc + all the top tier killers.
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"literal cheaters"
Sorry man, devs have said it's not cheating. Cheating in DBD is a bannable offence and you can't be banned for using a voice comm. Unforunately it's their game, and they decide what is and isn't breaking their EULA.
"Also, 90% of survivors already gen rush, use meta perks"
Meta perk I'll agree to but genrushing? Really? I'm currently doing a project about collecting stats from games and so far the only games I've had that have been under 10 minutes have been when I've killed them too quickly (or this one time they sent me to Ormond and I gave up and opened the gates because I didn't feel like playing on Ormond for the fourth time in a row). In fact most match times are between 11 and 13 minutes. Considering gens take 80 seconds to complete, that's 400 seconds they need to spend on objectives. 11 minutes is 660 seconds, 13 minutes being 780. If you call that rushing then I'm sorry mate that's just not it chief.
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Fun means easy to bully?
so.. Skillbilly is currenty the most fun killer to go against especially for more experience survivors
just a question.. can you bully a skillbilly?
FUN means just having fun.
Fun means that both sides need to show their knowledge, skill, timing, prediction, mindgaming etc
and thats why SPIRIT isnt fun. Scott is absolutely right with his statement.
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Fun should be the primary metric a game developer should judge everything by. If people aren't having fun in a game, they won't play it, game developers are out of a job.
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When did devs say it is not cheating? Why they do not include it in-game and buff killers then?
If you believe voice comms is not cheating they I have nothing to discuss with you.
BTW: how the hell do you ban voice comms? You survivors ever stop and think?
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Bullying billy is easy now. Hell, even back then you could bait out the chainsaw the same way you bait out demogorgon lunges.
Maybe its because I run Iron Will, but I don't have much trouble doubling back on my scratch marks or ducking to juke a spirit. If you're on the safe side of a pallet before she does her little "mind game" standing still, you still have 180 degrees of paths you can take that aren't toward her husk.
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im talking about a "skilled billy" not just a decent/baby billy.
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That's right.
It's not the job of survivors to care about my fun (and they absolutely do not). Nor is it my job to care about theirs.
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"If you believe voice comms is not cheating they I have nothing to discuss with you."
Okay, sure. Ignore the fact that this is called a General Discussions - and a discussion is definined as "the action or process of talking about something in order to reach a decision or to exchange ideas." - sure keep going with your viewpoint.
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Great! Now you've admitted you can't complain about genrushing, meta perks, or toxic actions, if you ever bring those up I'll be sure to quote you on this.
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I really think we need to start steering away from using words like “bully”.
I am really horrible playing Huntress and usually players can Juke me, because I don’t have a lot of experience with her. Doesn’t mean I’m getting “bullied”.
Fun is suppose to be subjective, not everyone who finds a killer fun means that they think those killers are easy to go against. Some of my more fun matches have been against high tier killers.
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I mean, you can go through my post history and see that I've always said that "genrushing" complaints are silly because they're just the survivors objective so of course they want to complete them.
Using anything "meta" is just smart. I might not LIKE certain perks design or gameplay implications, but blaming the players for using them is wrong. If they piss me off, it's the developers I need to blame.
As for toxic actions, that's a different animal. I don't go out of my way to be a jerk, I just don't (usually) think about my opponents "fun" when executing my strategy. (I let a metric ton of people out early in the crown event though, for instance. That was less about beating my opponents and more just a personal thing.)
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In which case my respect for you has gone up pretty dramatically.
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Don't you mean....
Considerably?
😎
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Wrong, clown is bad and still unfun to play aggainst. It has nothing to do with how strong the killer is
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You’re both right and wrong, OP.
Fun should absolutely be considered when balancing a game like this. For example, nobody reasonable finds mechanics with ZERO counterplay (infinite mending Legion, deep wound timer going down DURING chase, etc.) fun. Before anyone says DS doesn’t have counterplay, yes it does - slugging and/or going for someone else. When you have absolutely zero options against a certain tactic then it becomes both unfun and unhealthy for the game. For example, camping Leatherface is not fun and I think that should be considered when balancing this killer (hopefully his new “charge mechanic” prevents this, but doesn’t seem likely).
However, Spirit is not an unfun killer just because she is difficult to play against. In fact, her stupidly good addons were nerfed to even the playing field. I think she’s in a good place right now, except for maybe giving her a more reliable visual tell when she’s phasing (I think we all agree that her Stand Still at Pallet “mindgame” is ridiculous as it requires no skill to do). Gunslinger is a great chase killer but, like Spirit, is 110% and map pressure starts lacking.
In conclusion, fun should be taken into account but for the right reasons. If a killer is unfun because a power/addon doesn’t have counterplay then it should be looked at. If a survivor just doesn’t want to learn how to face a certain killer because they require different counterplay, then NO - the killer is fine.
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The general usage of the word "bully" in this game refers to the ease with which survivors can abuse perks & items (DS, Flashlights, Saboteur) or just camp god loops. It's easy to bully any Huntress depending on the map. If there aren't enough opportunities to get hatchet shots in, or she runs out, she's slow enough that many normal loops become painfully long for her. Bully tactics work well against most killers, except for those like Freddy, Spirit and Oni, because being on the other side of a pallet doesn't mean you're safe.
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Yeeeessss , complain about deepwound, devs see deepwounds = boring, give us a power that actually downs people again.
Oh how then the salt river will run deep and wide.
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That last paragraph is a large part of my point. When Scott talks about why he finds deathslinger unfun, he paints deathslinger as having an assault rifle "he can just keep taking shots over and over again" when that's just not the case. Deathslinger has to slow down and reload after every single shot, and has plenty of counterplay in that you can bait out many shots around pallets. People also find being harpooned off a gen another example of him being "unfun" but if survivors had warning ahead of time he wouldn't be very good.
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Nah I think tremendously is a better measurement :p
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Please do because deep wounds are boring and I'd rather be downed.
So long as it isn't old Legion.
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Fun is the whole reason most of us play the game. What’s your point?
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Pretty much every survivor player will tell you Clown, the worst killer, is unfun to play against. You are talking absolute ######### regarding that
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Fun, as in that thing we play video games for, shouldn't be a factor. What?
I doubt that ANY of us here play games professionally, or get paid for it. We play games for the enjoyment, and I don't want to play if I don't have fun. Therefore it IS a very important factor, and possibly the most important.
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This is the main problem I hjave with all these "this streamer said this" videos. They arent really doing it for fun, they make videos because thats their job. They play DbD 10 hours per day and it is no wonder most are negative in regards to the game and openly state while live that if they were not being paid they wouldnt be playing the game. They do not look like they are having fun, they make videos showing they are not having fun, but yet their opinion is regarded as the Law.
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mate idk who told you that but clown isnt fun to face, and billy/nurse are absolute blasts to verse.
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OMG finally someone who is sensible in this discussion XD
I'm so tired of people complaining about killers with "no counterplay" just because they refuse to learn their counterplay. I agree with everything you said. I do think spirit could use a visual queue when she starts phasing. However I wonder how many survivors will stand still at a pallet when they know she is phasing? like is it a good mind game for them to have but not a good mind game for her to have? But then again she can have a different mind game where the survivor will either vault or not vault so it could be interesting.
I don't think there's a single killer that has no counterplay right now. They just vary in difficulty.
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Content creators are great for gaging a measure of actual power, as they know completely how to work around something. They can also do a lot of good, like with Ghostface's release, but yeah. Their word is not law, and neither is mine when I make a The [Killer] Problem thread, it's just what is observed by an individual.
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Making a thread encouraging discussion is one thing, but the streamer videos are held up and shown as like some form of ancient script found justifying outrage or removal of something from the game.
Big diff between when someone makes a thread, and these videos that are literally made to pressure devs with the chat-mob. As soon as these streamers make videos people come post them on the forum as some form of divine proof there is a problem.
Discussion is good, preaching to me from a throne of negativity is not.
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Yeah, she just needs some kind of visual cue when starting phase (maybe a noticeable stance animation, not simply the animation “resetting” like some people claim). No further nerfs are needed.
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I honestly like the idea of her shards lighting up. It's subtle enough that you have to pay attention. It just needs to be a bit more noticeable and consistent across all cosmetics.
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Deathslinger is fine because he’s slow as a turtle, has limited range and can’t damage you through safe pallets. Depending on where you get speared, he can’t damage you on mediocre pallets either.
Scott is entitled to his opinion, but Gunslinger is just tough to go against in chase. However, you CAN loop him around certain tiles and people pumping gens can offset his chase pressure.
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Agreed. Something subtle enough where you HAVE to be paying attention, but not so obvious that you can be running around like a headless chicken and still realize she’s phasing.
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NFL players don't play for fun they play to win. Anything with two sides is a competition which in turn make it competitive. Agree with you 100%.
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OP: "Fun = easy games"
Community: "VS Clown, (weak killer) is unfun. VS Billy, (strong killer) is a lot of fun"
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balance is the first priority"
Yeah, but that doesn't mean there can't be other things that are wanted.
Nurse is likely the most powerful killer in the game but is still fun to play against because of counterplay.
While spirit would be fine if there was more ways to tell if she was phasing i.e. crows flying.
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Everyone points out the clown thing as if that nullifies the rest of my points
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I have a lot of fun against PH and Hag...
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Nurse hasn't been the most powerful killer since her rework. She still has high potential, but she's such a pain in the ass to use that people would rather gravitate towards the other hypermobiles. 99% of nurse matches are just the survivors juking the ######### out of her and laughing all the way to the gate.
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It's a red-herring, the "community" is not a person so that guy's statement makes literally no sense.
We all know what they mean by fun OP, don't worry.
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Are we forgetting that Scott also made a video highlighting how he thinks DS and Unbreakable are both unfun perks? It’s not just “easy to bully”. People liked going against Billy. People like going against Myers and the only way to bully him is to starve him of stalk which isn’t exactly easy.
Clown is unfun to go against. Legion is commonly called unfun to go against. Those are two of the easiest killers to bully. Not to mention the main discussion of his video was Deathslinger a far from powerful killer. I’d say the only top tier killer that can and does get called unfun often is Spirit and for mostly good reasons.
To the point though... Why would you not measure your game off it being fun? I’d say that’s the most important part of the game. Second comes balance. If the game or parts of the game aren’t fun the balance doesn’t exactly matter because people aren’t enjoying themselves as is.
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