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Deathslinger's counterplay balance discussion - what changes would you make ?
Comments
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Yeah I am not suggesting that this would be the total extent of his rework - just aspects that I would like.
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I don't might the idea of a longer ads, but he would need something major to compensate, reload or cooldown alone wouldnt do it. Think about how many obstacles there are, how hard it is to get a long range hatchet, or even hit someone with plagues puke.
It would have to be 115% or losing the chain mechanic. Because if you need 2 seconds to steady the aim, then another 4 to reel them in, then another 3 to wipe your weapon, then another 3 to reload, then 8 to carry them to a hook, he will be garbage.
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Sorry, I've overspoke, it would not completely negate the slowdown but I can outplay a lot of loops as 115% already, if DS kept his power as it is and became 115% with just a few sec on the ADS he would gain far more then he would lose. If you think that good slingers would ADS preemptively so that you can reach window they you're wrong, they would just walk around, gain more distance with their newfound 115% and again forced survivor into position where they have to make a prediction or get speared. And good slingers would hit as many spears as before since it's the projectile speed that makes it unreactable not the ADS.
I've tested slinger playing him with perks that increase TR radious (for the memes) to 32m and more. People still played the same, waited at gens due to greed and didn't know which direction I was coming from or just got forced into bad positions through my movement. A few good players would probably capitalize on it and start running earlier but that also means you aren't sitting on gens when I just migh be walking around which is good for me.
I feel like it would be overall buff that wouldn't adress the issues people have with his counterplay in any capacity while making him more straightforward and easy to play which I find boring. As of now, I feel like when I face DS I can use my experience with him to battle him better thus I have a feeling of that my skill matters. Pity that when I play survivor I don't see too many slingers, far too many M1 killers for my taste so very few chances to practise. At least I can still have decent amount of spirit games, she's luckily popular.
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I think people don't really understand the difference between "predicting" and "guessing".
Also.. why people want so much to punish people who are actually skilled with a killer? I played the Deathslinger for a month after release and I couldnt snapshot even if my life depended on that. I think if people put on the effort to Git GUD they should be rewarded...
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I agree, if were to offer more. Then 1 sec* ADS (slightly bigger hitbox than now) and has a max range of 5m (give or take a few metres). At 2 secs* (some sound prompt triggers) the ADS would also have bigger hitbox and a max range of 18m.
I would like his movement speed to be moved up to 4.6m/s (115%) and his reload to be reduced from 2.75s to 1.5s*. So he has better mobility.
This way he isn't able to quick scope close range, but at long ranges he has better accuracy and at least the survivors can try to avoid the shot knowing he is aiming.
To further improve him the slowdown of 60% movement speed while reloading should be increased to let's say 80% (again a figure that is balanced).
I think a cool mechanic would be if he had an infectious fright like proc when he hit a survivor (as he is 'the deathslinger' so he should instill fear in survivors by shooting a gun).
* times can change based to whatever is more balanced.
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You could say the same thing about huntress because she has a windup its holding her back. If she had insta throw it would he op. You make it sound like giving survivors a chance is a bad thing.
I wont stop the video requests because if you give me solid counterplay showcased in a video to prove your point then that's all you need.
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You make it sound like DS's spear is as lethal and snowbally as huntresses's hatches. If you give DS too much windup and other drawbacks on shooting he'll eventually need to have his spears deal damage themselfs and then he can just be reworked into skin for huntress.
Once you give me video solid proof that I asked for then I'll give you yours. Seems like no one is getting their video in the end.
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I think for the most part deathslinger is perfectly fine. Being able to shoot someone outside of your terror radius with the right perks can be absolutely terrifying but amazing and earned. My only problem is his gun in chases. With any other ranged killer there is audio or visual queue. With gunslinger there isn't much there, it's pretty instant. I think there should be some sort of audio queue that he's aiming if you're in his terror radius. (Only if you're in his terror radius though) I feel if you changed him any other way might hurt him too much as he's not necessarily THAT strong.
To the players that say deathslinger has no counterplay: have you heard of the crouch button? It's so easy to crouch under his shots often times. And even outside of crouching, you're also able to move unpredictably so he misses shots. A gunslinger has to be pretty accurate if he wants to hit you. That being said, moving like this can make you lose distance and I've seen good deathslingers bait this so they can get closer
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Do you not see the flaw in your argument? What if the survivor is equally as good a player?
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I will be providing videos of DS lack of counter play but I need to find one in game dont worry but I cant guarentee you will uphold your end and I think I forgot to mention your point on shack unlike DS you can break the pallet so there is counter play to shack.
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Ah, I think we may be differing a bit on what in particular makes him hard to counter. I put almost all of the blame on the fast ADS time. If you make him telegraph that he's getting into shooting posture, that basically turns him into a Huntress. Huntress' hatchets can't really be dodged reactively when fully charged, but she needs to spend nearly three seconds moving at (I think) 80% speed and telegraphing her intention to throw before she reaches that point. For every moment she waits to throw at 80% speed, the survivor gets to build distance. And, because she's slower than a survivor, the survivor can afford to anticipate a throw and dodge a bit without her gaining distance.
As is, Deathslinger just gets 110% throughout because they can quickscope to almost entirely avoid the ADS slowdown and can even fake shots to try to gain distance. That's my problem with him. If he announces his presence with a big ol' 32m terror radius and he still finds me and lines up a shot before I can break LOS, so be it. I think it's totally legit for him to have a high chance at injuring me, just like for Huntress. So long as he is the one moving slower while my chance of dodging is very low and so long as I have a reasonable chance to avoid that situation in the first place, I'm happy.
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@ScottJund I think this is relevant to the discussion so I'll just post copy paste of my comment on your latest video concerning guessing.
"I feel like I've impacted creation of this video quite a bit.
I would agree with you that fair guesses would be healthy for DBD if they were equalised. If there weren't things like safe tiles where survivor is always favored or things like stacked jungle gyms. If devs made gameplay fair for both sides then yes nerfs for killers that force prediction based gameplay would be deserved nerfs then. Unfortunately, survivors have large amount of overly safe tiles and setups. Once those are gone and looping can't be abused to create no-mindgame tiles then overly opressive chase killers that force prediction based gameplay would be deserving of nerfs.
Gameplay as of now isn't fair for both sides so nerfing near uncounterable / very hard to counter gameplay of killers is undeserved. Some changes can be done (like the fix for M2 spam to DS or no idication of phasing for spirit) but complete power change just can't happen now."
As stated in the comment, I can see your point about killer's prediction beiing much more favored then survivors. But as stated I can't agree that these prediction based killers should be changed until problem of unfair gameplay from survivor's POV is also adressed.
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I've asked for video of wraith counterplaying dropped shack pallet vs great survivor without breaking it. I won't settle for any less then fair gameplay for both sides so if your argument is based around that optimal DS can't ever miss which is unfair for survivros then I want to see counterplay for dropped shack pallet by weak killer. It's only fair that both sides have equall chances to mindgame all tiles wouldn't you say.
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Yes and none of that lower MM speed during ADS matter if DS or huntress already reached close enough for a safe shot. That's what would happen, counterplay would be same, slighlty less chances for shots.
I'v already said that I aprove addition of any TR change or a hum as long as a few small counterbuff come with it. His stealth aspects imao aren't as important as people make them out to be.
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I think he needs a solid rework. He is not rewarding to play as. It doesn't matter if you hit a sick shot, when you can't get anything from that. Most of the times survivor will break free and get a free speed boost.
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You seem to want the survivors to be able to 1v1 the killer and win, which would be fine if the gen speeds weren't at lightning levels. A really good killer player vs a really good player, the killer should always win, because there are 3 more survivors working.
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Ok ima start off with the fact that DS has the same problems with old nurse she became broken when you got good then thing with DS is the unreactable quickshots become more noticeable. Even a mediocre DS can make his chase really strong, once you become at least decent you can be patient and let survivors run into your shots or just get aim. It's not about the fact that they never miss it's the fact that there is no window to break los, vaults etc. This bould down to the quickshot.
The comparison from shack to DS unreactable shot doesnt even go together that's about loops and not a killers power. The question isnt even how do you mindgame it is why should you mindgame it? You can completely ignore mindgames by breaking it so why attempt something that's possible but hard. I say possible because average survivors make mistakes like that.
But if you wanna talk about both sides why does huntress still have iri head? Why havent the killer ultra rarest been nerfed? Did you know flashlight addons been useless for 3 years? We gotta keep it equal right?
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How old nurse are we speaking about ? The OG nurse with base 3 blinks or old nurse as that was nerfed recently that had 2 blinks ? Since both can phase through walls and bypass all survivor defences, abilities that DS doesnt have. You can break LOS when he first hits you and has attack CD especially when he also has to reload.
Killer's power is supposed to be a tool to counter loops and if you feel like the power isn't giving you enough space to loop then it's comparable to different power that doesn't give any chance to outplay a loop. The real question is why it isn't mindgameable and is forced waste of time that lacks counters which is what your arguments againt DS are based around.
I talk about both sides from standpoint of balancing chases, not OP items or weak addons but basic mechanics. When you talk about lack of counterplay to DS you forget about things on survivors side that don't have solid counter. Both might seem unfair but also doesn't necessarily have to be.
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Ok this discussion lasted about 8+ hours for me and I have to sleep sometimes. If anyone has any more to say and expects responces then I'll give them tomorrow. I'm happy that I've managed to bring so much attention to this topic. Thanks to all who've found time to discuss thus far and were civilised.
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I'm talking about pre cooldown nerf where she would instantly have two blinks after fatigue which gave you no room to get distance or break los especially with fatigue addons. This is the same with deathslinger as his projectile shooting so fast you cant even get behind cover.
Yes a killers power is supposed to help chases and stop loops but it shouldn't be without counter. Like oni being able to strafe in a loop can trick the survivor into moving themselves close enough to flick but that has counter, that is a mindgame. You could simply leave the loop or win the mindgame and position yourself away from him. Just like Billy's curving that can end chases quickly but that has counter.
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easiest way is eliminate the QUICKSCOPE SPAM. thats it.
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If he was given an indicator that hes going to shoot, like Huntress, he needs to be buffed. Hes already a D tier killer.
Also, because someones going to say "Hes so good in chases, git gud", you could say Clown is good in chases because he has slowdown on demand with his bottles. But the community still regards Clown as one of the worst killers. So, they would have to rework Deathslinger completely in order to make giving him an audio cue of when hes going to shoot worth it
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The problem is deathslinger being able to quickscope and cancel his power and instantly M1 after. Dodging a deathslinger depends on the deathslinger's skill. Not yours. If the deathslinger is good no matter what you do you'll always get shot.
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Do what bhvr is doing to all the killers, put the gun on a cool-down, and if it is spammed it backfires and stuns the killer. GG EZ fix!
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Anyone ever stop and think that deathslingers power wastes a lot of time. If you play dbd against good players you would know every second matters. So when a deathslinger uses his power it counts as one hit. But the process wastes a lot of time. First you have to shoot then reel then strike then weapon clean then reload then begin the process again.Now lets say you do this all game at least 12 or 15 times do you know how much time is being wasted not factoring in he has zero gen pressure low to no snowball potential and is a 110 ms killer which worsens the situation depending on map side. Hazards like corn, obstructions and indoor maps further limits his power and amplifies the issues tenfold. I hate how people will use the chase as the primary definition of whether or not to take action against nerfing a killer. Any counter play implemented needs to be compensated for especially when the killer is low tier lest i remind you legion exists in his current state which is a disgrace.
Also who decided the game was to be built on the chase who made that decision. I'm pretty sure there are 3 other emblems gens, saves and escape status. We can't continue limiting future killer design space so they respect the limitations of what a survivor can do at loops. Shouldn't we at least entertain the idea of stealth perhaps limit a killer not in the chase but tracking instead. You know what the difference between guessing and a read is. Guessing is a phrase used by the DBD community to make a random choice and hope its the right outcome. A read is any other multiplayer game where a person makes an estimate based off of how an opposing player has played up until this point. I know there are dbd players who will say I read my opponent but the vast majority of players who cry nerf because the killer isn't spoon feeding you information on what there doing is really silly when you take a step back and compare dbd to other multiplayer games.
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Guys, Basically what Scott Jund trying to say is the killers' learning curve should be Bell-shaped. He wants killer mains to learn the game then realize that their skill don't matter then quit the game. Only survivors' exp matters. Unless you are an Oni main though because Oni is counterplayable (imagine getting hit when he missed his dash but flick XD).
If Oni can snowball and get bullshit hits/240 Flick around corner and that's only depend on Oni's skill. I still remember watching video about you bitching about dev nerfing flick.
Now you want that kind of nerf to Deathslinger ?? Skill ceiling nerf. Really ?
I don't want to call Scott Jund hypocrite but...?
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I have plenty of knowledge about dbd over 1,000 hours. There's no need to try and insult me because you disagree. Get some manners.
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There are no nerfs to give that still leave him a viable killer
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I personally enjoy deathslinger too much for me to want him changed, but if he was to be changed, I would like to see his add-ons looked at and a 1.5 second wind up before shooting as a nerf. Nothing more.
Post edited by Todgeweiht on0 -
I don't really mind him on the whole, but I do still think his quickdraw needs to be toned down just a tad. Or rather than slow down the hardaim itself, maybe have it take a half second to pull the trigger.
Actually I'll go off that idea:
So you'd still have quick aim, then a half second pull to fire. Don't dial back aiming so much while the trigger is being pulled, you should be able to lead your shots and follow your target, but it should take a hot second for the busted harpoon gun to actually fire, like the whole thing is bound to burst on itself because it's a rusty old gun. I think that would be pretty freaky.
As the killer works right now, they can turn a corner and shoot into a corner that a survivor is turning, without really applying any pressure or forethought. It's just an instinctual press from eight million hours of fps shooters. It doesn't even take a new player that much to figure that out. But force them to commit to a trigger pull and they'll actually be more tactical with their shots.
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Current nurse works exactly the same as before her recent nerf if you land you blinks, there isn't pretty much any CD time. Especially with blink recharge addons.
With the oni/billy example, I though relying on killer missing (since you're making educated guess in which directin he'll chainsaw/bambam) or prehrowing pallets to delay him is gameplay you said was uncounterable or just isn't fun. If you're in a tile where onibilly have enough space & time to make a turn and hit you, your imput is as significant as when DS is shooting at you with enough LOS.
Also, this wasn't supposed to be discussion about counterply/comparability/fairness etc of things like we've talked about so I'm stopping it now. Unless you have more to say about the main topic excuse me to no longer humor you. We've derailed long enough and I don't think it's progressive enough to be worth more time.
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Yeah the discussion definitely took a turn but you wont change your mind in deathslinger even with me telling you some down right flaws. The discussion was pointless because you weren't gonna change your mind anyways.
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when you said you wanted to "discuss DS changes to give his power counterplay" i was like "######### does Decisive have to do with this?" xD
yeah in my opinion you cant really change his power a whole lot without making him unviable ingame.
as others already pointed out its all about predictions - if you're in his head he isnt gonna hit a single shot, while if he is in yours he isnt gonna miss a single one.
the only thing i would maybe change would be an animation for putting his weapon away after aiming without taking a shot (not a lengthy one ofc), just so he cant fake aim at all kinds of windows / pallets, then drop it and chase normally when the survivor tries to run around it.
though i really like him the way he currently is, i wouldnt really want to touch him.
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Don't get me wrong, I see the flaws in his gameplay towards survivros. But I won't agree on any significant change until the same gameplay is adressed on survivor's side as well as I said so in copypaste of my comment on Scott's video posted here.
His gameplay is perfectly fine as long as other killers and survivors have aspects of it as well. Once we're all on even ground then we can agree on changes, so my mind can be changed, not by excuses but only by evening "fair guesses" to both sides, not just catering only one side while other suffers from same problems.
This should be good enough to close this side topic.
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Deathslinger is fine idk why u wanna nerf killer also have to predict ur direction.
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Counterplay: play on console
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Your name is BillyDied and you have like 50 posts did you only come here to troll?
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Remove quickscope..
At least Huntress needs skill, this brainless killer not.
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Yeah let's end this and focus on the real question giving deathslinger a good change.
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@azame He doesn't need any changes he is in a good spot. You can tell the diffrent between good and bad slinger.
Like i know you are Scott Jund's fan his words are gospel But the guy is literal hypocrite. Example ? Watch his Oni videos. Scott Jund just want some attentions. Oni flick was the same thing as DS scope but he made several videos and titles to ######### about Oni's flick.
Thanks god that dev didnt balance around this guy's words . because the game would be dead no killer would want to play this Non-Rewarding Scott Jund Edition. Why would you play the game that punish you for getting better ?
I think his videos posting spree is because he's in difficult time right now ?
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No my opinion on deathslinger has been from my own personal experience and since day 1 he came out I knew he would be problematic. It's not about being punished for getting better but that's how survivor is if you are good killers get mad at you for looping. That's besides the point though. DEathslinger gives you no time to react there you cant counter it. If you thinks that's fair dont respond.
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Are you guys seriously suggesting a nerf to deathslinger? He's literally just huntress but weaker. I stg survivors are the biggest cry babies I've ever seen. Wanna know how to counter deathslinger dodge his shots. You're welcome.
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@azame if you are in less than 10m range in open field ofcourse there are no counter plays. thats literally his whole identity if you expect to press A/D and just dodge the PB-shot then you are delusional.
if you are healthy and u get shot it takes DS to Clean his weapon then Reload that's almost 4 seconds without addons. you also get sprint from that. that is only if there are nothing between you and DS. and he is 110%.
also literally 80% sur uses dead hard if you are at 8+ m and hear him shoot use dead hard instantly and there 4 seconds 90% slow for DS from cooldown and reload.
if you are biased from the first day without playing him then don't talk to me. my mistake thinking you aren't entitled survivor main.
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- Rework the spear mechanic. It's dumb he basically gets a guaranteed hit AND can pull you out of position. Zoning wouldn't be an issue if you could actually do something to get away once speared.
- Fix the dB levels at all ranges of his terror radius.
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More range, let's give an addon to let him truly try to snipe from a hill or balcony. Increase his TR. When you can see him chasing you and have chase music but no TR, that is rediculous.
Deathslinger is one I don't mind facing on the rare occasions where they are not running MA.
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If you saying his ability not having counter play up close would be like saying billy deserves to chainsaw guaranteed if he gets close. 4 seconds is nothing when most DS just run wardens keys anyways.
I dont run dead head as sprint burst is much better. It's not even about being biased if you would stop thinking about "us vs them" you wouldnt even talk about which side I prefer and talk about the discussion at hand him having proper counterplay.
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Love how Scott Jund's fans are always conflicted with themselves and have 0 idea what they talk about just like Scott Jund. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QS8v2ZsWRNw
Neither the fan or Scott Jund is Deathslinger main or play Deathslinger at all.
I leave it to the devs. atleast i know they wont be listening to Scott Jund.
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I play against deathslinger I really dont see such an issue rousing him or playing against him if you aren't complaining about huntress why complain about a version of her but has more strategy learn how to duck maybe run urban evasion and iron will so you counter that pesky spirit survivor mains, eh?
But in all seriousness he probably does need some kind of indication that he will fire and maybe not like if he raises his gun you can get an indicator like in dbd mobile where you can see a gen icon to show where a gen is and then maybe add one of these
< ------ (gun icon)
I
I
I
V. (Gun icon)
And before you rage at me yes his power is the redeemer not the gun.
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But the whole game have situations like that.. I think if two equally good players are going against each other, one of them is gonna have an advantage depending which killer or which perks the survivor is using. What I mean is a good Nurse, Billy, Oni, PH or Huntress will most of the time have an advantage on equally good survivors and even with these killers there might be a level of "guessing" or "predicting" what the other side is gonna do.
Said that I do understand why some people feel there's not enough information to counter the quick shots.. but then what could be done?
Should Deathslinger have a "laser sight" that shows the survivor that he's taking aim? Kind of like the red trail PH makes before taking his shot? I mean, it could be considered as mush as a nerf (because the survivors would have more information) as well as a buff (because now the killer has a way to know when the survivors are on the crosshairs).
Anyway, thanks for the reply. I always like your content and love to have this kind of conversations.
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Theres an alarm clock ringing sound when hes aiming at you. It's pretty easy to use that as an indicator.
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