Weird survivor/killer divide on counterplay
When I was trying to edit things it kinda crashed so sorry if this is a repost.
This is more of a dumb rambling.
There's a lot of discussions popping up about which killers have counterplay, what killers don't have counterplay, etc etc. Personally, I think every killer has plenty of counterplay. The discussion should be about whether they are too strong in their area of strength or whether the killer should be changed so it feels like what a survivor does have more of an effect. But I digress.
When survivors talk about counterplay they're talking about whether or not there was something they could do in a certain situation to counter the killer. The idea is that, provided the killer knows what they're doing, if a situation has no counterplay then there is no survivor-killer interaction.
Now here is the other side of the same coin. Some time ago, it was really popular to talk about the power role in the game (some still talk about it but it was a bigger thing a while back). It is essential the same argument as the survivor one. What can you do as a killer to counter what a survivor does when no matter what the killer does the survivor can counter it. If the killer has to be reactive and hope the survivor plays poorly to win, then who is in control? No killer-survivor interaction, since every chase boils down to bloodlust against a survivor who plays perfectly
I don't know how BHVR could solve this other than make killers with the perceived feeling of control/counterplay on both sides. I think the closest thing they have is Ghostface but I don't think they did it on purpose.
Random closing thoughts: I think every single killer in the current game has situations where there is nothing a survivor could do to counterplay that killer. They're all situationally strong. The general counterplay to this is to not end up in that situation. For some killers this is easier to do while for others this is more difficult. The nerf with Billy seems to be to increase skill ceiling while limiting the amount of situations where there is no counterplay. Whether or not that's a good idea or fun is a whole other debate. Then there's spirit who does have counterplay but it doesn't really feel like you're doing anything against them.
Here's a hot take: base spirit is close to ghostface in terms of counterplay. You're essentially playing the same hide and seek mind game + stealth. It just doesn't feel like it.
Take whatever thoughts you'd like from this. I just hope people understand a little bit more about both sides.
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I think you've hit on the two extremes. Killers should never feel powerless in a chase against similarly-skilled survivors. The playing field should always be tilted in their favor. With that said, survivors need to be able to make skillful plays to prolong chases or interacting with the killer becomes extremely frustrating and unfun. Take Legion as an example. If Legion sees you with Frenzy up, that's basically a free hit. If you drop a pallet or vault a window, they vault it too. If you run, they quickly catch up. You can window tech bad Legions or make them whiff their hits, but a decent Legion will just about never miss. That is not fun from the survivor side, because no amount of skill or optimal play would let them avoid taking a hit.
Note that the idea of counterplay doesn't have much to do with the killer's strength. For example, Huntress is a killer with a massive amount of counterplay but she's also extremely strong. You can easily dodge uncharged hatchets, you have a lot of warning on when she's readying a charged hatchet and can gain distance and break line of sight, she's 110% speed and can therefore be looped around tiles she can't throw over very easily, and her lullaby makes her easier to use stealth against that other killers. However, she can also deal out damage very quickly and from long distance, so she's formidable in the right hands.
Now, on the other side, we could talk about old Freddy. Survivors could straight up bully him. Like, they could follow Freddy into the basement as he's hooking someone, immediately save, and Freddy would basically just have to let it happen and follow them up the stairs as they fell asleep. Similarly, they could just continue opening exit gates as he's standing around waiting from them to fall asleep and could maybe even get in a few good t-bags by the time he was able to hit them. Killers should never have to feel like they don't have any power against survivors. So, just like survivors want to be able to lengthen chases with mindgames and skillful play, killers also want to be able to shorten chases with mindgames and skillful play.
I think most killers in DBD have room for skill to shine through on both sides in the chase, but there are a few killers that are basically uncounterable if the killer is decent. I feel that this should never be 100% dependent on the killer's skill; survivor skill should always have a chance to shine through.
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Most people don't think about the game from a detatched perspective. It's all about their feelings and how they percieve things.
Mechanically the game should offer strengths AND weaknesses. Where those stats lie is the issue. The game is so mechanically simple though so any small change to the dynamic is magnified.
Then there's the psychology most bring to this game. If it doesn't immediately turn things in their favor, it's worthless. Or they absolutely refuse to bend to what they see as antagonistic. Ok you picked a side. But you're only the hero in your own story. Doesn't make you right about everything because you refuse to be flexible.
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Think people are being overly pedantic about this. Yes some killers are uncounterable in theory. If you had an super- AI play a nurse then it would be gg but you as a survivor can still make actions that make it so that the killer has to be perfect in order to get you and for average and even alot of good killers that is enough to be called a counter. Going around LoS with a nurse player will increase their chance of making errors as opposed to not doing so. If they try to go around you can run perpendicular away from the wall as most will expect you to just go around. They still have the potential to make perfect moves but who cares?
This isn't even uncommon in any pvp game where you have diverse characters/classes or whatever. There's going to be a specific playstyle that is in theory unbeatable if played perfectly but if balanced with difficulty like with nurse they're usually not an issue in practice.
I would also add that this game isn't only a 1v1 its a 1v4 so again, I don't see the problem if chases aren't a 50/50 input battle.
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The point is that a lot of survivors try the same line of play with all killers. And with some of them, that line is good, for some of them it still works, but for some, it doesnt. But instead of adeptiong the playstyle vs those killers, they try their favorite one and then call the killer uncounterable.
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The thing about Legion is that there is still counterplay to their power. Original Legion is the closest existence to no counterplay unless u 4 man swf with specific tactics. As for the Legion of today, U could slam a pallet in their face. It's difficult with how the server works but doable. If the Legion was 12(?)m away run a straight line and their power runs out b4 hitting u. Certain maps/obstacles/perk combinations can allow you to out play Legions power. If you're going to get hit anyway correct positioning will make getting the second hit much more difficult and/or would give other survivors a better chance of not getting hit by Legion's power. Also, you could still drag out the time b4 getting that first hit(another of those counters that ppl sleep on). It adds on that little bit of pressure for the killer and if all 4 survivors do it multiple times things start adding up. As for the rest of what you said I mostly agree.
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Problem is, too often, when a survivor calls for nerfs etc,... its because they have 0 hours as killer.
And too often, when a killer calls for nerfs, it's becauise they have zero hours as survivor.
Personally, I dont really listen to anyone who marches on one side. I prefer people who have master knowledge of the game at both sides.
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I'd agree with you b4 nurses nerf but after it... The thing with super-ai nurse is can it beat 4 super-ai survivors built to counter it? The answer would be I dunno. If the super-ai nurse was allowed to always slug then I think it would win most of the time, except there are a few good strats super-ai survivors could use that might make it rough for a slugging nurse.
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Even average Legions are good enough at respecting and baiting pallet drops that you really shouldn't even try to go for the stun. If you do, there will be zero pallets left to use when you're injured and looping normally. I don't really care about increasing the time it takes before the first hit, or reducing the likelihood of the second hit. My frustration is that the first hit is free and applies deep wounds. The 12m bit ignores add-ons, lunge, the fact that you may not know exactly where they're coming from / that you may be facing a wall and unable to run directly away, etc., but it's sort of besides the point. It's entirely up to Legion how close they get to you before they trigger their Frenzy. So, unless they really mess up, they will trigger their Frenzy close enough to get that first hit.
There's certainly counterplay as a team, like staying split up, running away once you see that first deep wounds indicator pop up, etc., but I'm not really concerned about winning and losing. I'm talking about how irritating they are to play against, and that's mostly due to their ability to deep wound for free.
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If the only counter to those killer is rushing gen at rank 1. It's very boring gameplay. Chase is what is fun in this game. If you bypass that then all the game are the same. You split, you press m1 you pray to not be the one he decide to chase. Rinse and repeat. And if you play solo and your teammate are potatos then it's gg. Where is the fun in that.
I played Pyramidhead for quite a bit. It's super easy to play and way too effective at zoning.
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DEAD by daylight
A game where most survivors live.
And the killer role keeps getting nerfed to be more difficult and the longer survivors play the less mistakes they make for killers to capitalize on.
A game built as the killer win condition to be a 4k but Ballence for 2E.
But don't worry as long as a survivor walks out they win. Gens or no lol free hatch every match :D
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The thing is you're proving my point. It isn't that there is no counterplay to fight it. There are plenty of things you could do to fight it. It's that we're talking about whether it's fun, fair, feels like you're actively fighting or the strength of Legion in this aspect is too strong. Respecting pallets and baiting drops is still mind gaming each other. If they respect it too much u just wait it out and waste their time/power. If they try to bait u don't fall for it. If the servers actually worked out this would be a lot better and hit validation would probably be a good step for this. As for the 12m thing, you're right about the add-on stuff but it only extends it a small amount. You run, get to a loop. Play with the pallet and the timer hopefully runs out. Legions 1st hit is only free of you let it be free. You are also right that there are situations where you're screwed with the hit but that goes back to what I said b4. Should survivors always be able to counter things a killer can do at all times, leading to m1 bloodlust being the on average optimal time saver against good survivors. Now you can argue that it's harder to avoid the situations where Legion can give you that 1st smack when compared to most killers but that's why Legion has those other draw backs in the 4v1 and the second hit. You're going to kill the one thing that makes Legion relevant. That's probably a big problem with BHVR design philosophy. There's always that 1 situationally uncounterable thing a killer's power let's them do and ppl want it nerfed so it's either gone or even more situational.
You really have to start thinking of the game in a 4v1 situation cuz if even survivors don't think of the game in as a 4v1 killers won't either. That'll lead to toxic facecamping cuz they won the 1v1. At least that's what a killer actually told me lol.
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I think the game is decently balanced at this point outside of mm, swf vs solo queue and little tweaks here and there for everyone. Definitely not perfect but it's getting as close as it can humanly get without changing the core game mechanics, like gen times, number of hits, etc.
The sad thing is I think gen rushing is the most optimal decision to do against every killer, just like tunneling/slugging and even camping at times is the most optimal decision for killer. It's definitely not the only counter against 99% of killers though. The 2 killers that its the only counter to is the afk/farming (usually Wraith) killers and the 1st hook facecamper.
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All of the things you mentioned are extremely unlikely to pull off against a good Legion. It's just bs that the survivor has input as to whether they take that first hit. If the Legion is bad, maybe you can make them whiff or pull of a window tech to lose them. If they're even average, you're taking a hit 99% of the time.
Other killers do not have abilities that are uncounterable to that extent. Spirit is close, but she's vulnerable to perks and you at least have a chance of making a play, especially if you're not injured.
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Think of it this way. I can pull off a dead hard to Dodge killer attacks, hit great skill checks, hit that locker thing that stubs the killer (I forgot the name), bait unhooks so that instead of being grabbed i get hit and loop/counter killer mind games 60% of the time. I think of myself as an average survivor (and a very sub par killer). My point here is if I can do this, then outside of server problems and hit detecting problems a lot of people can do it better. The thing is you're acting like it's up to the Legion when u decide to pull the trigger on the pallet.
As for the other things, some things are out of your control and some things are. Ur goal is to do your best not to be in a position where the Legion easily gets that first hit. If you force the Legion to have to walk close to you and then use their power, then you've done your job. You've won that battle and you still have another hit. What do you think would be fair then?
By those parameters technically no killer is counterable. They will eventually get that first hit on you and eventually hook you. You're control is when this happens or if you manage to escape.
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Not trying to say your experience is invalid, but if consider yourself an average survivor you're probably also playing against average Legions :) Good Legions are often going to trigger Frenzy so that they can hit you before you can even get to a pallet, but they're very good at baiting pallet drops regardless. If you drop the pallet, you have a very low chance of getting the stun unless they want it to happen. It might work occasionally, but the large majority of the time the Legion will step back at the last second and vault it. Now you're deep wounded and you're also down a pallet. If your whole team plays that way, chases are going to start going very quickly as everyone's injured and you quickly run out of pallets. Healing against Legion is usually a bad idea because of how easy it is for them to re-injure you, so it's extra important to make sure you have pallets to work with; given that you're going to be starting most of your chases injured, you want to be able to be conservative and drop pallets a bit early to make sure you don't take a hit. You can't play that way if you're already burning through pallets, though.
Another thing to consider is that good Legions will sometimes intentionally bait you into stunning them with a pallet. Let's say a Legion has already injured one person and is running towards an injured survivor with Frenzy who's making a break for a pallet. Let's say Legion doesn't see anyone else with Killer Instinct, so they know they probably aren't going to be able to chain a third hit. Good Legions will swing right through that pallet without even bothering to fake or moonwalk explicitly to try to get stunned. That allows them to skip the usual four second-cooldown from manually cancelling their power and trade it for a two-second stun, meaning they can start chasing that injured survivor faster. It doesn't even matter if they get the hit before they get stunned; either way they're chasing an injured survivor and their power is canceled. So, if you're watching a streamer or something playing as or against Legion at high rank and you see some pallet stuns, keep in mind that getting stunned might be intentional on Legion's part. That's yet another reason why you often don't want to try to stun a Legion. Unless you're the first survivor they're chasing in Frenzy or you see any non-deep-wounded teammates near you, it's possible that they want you to stun them. So, not only did you waste a pallet, but you also did the killer a favor in the chase
And, to address your last paragraph, there are only a few killers in the game that can get what I'd call "free" first hits, and most of these require more skill than Legion and don't reward the killer nearly as much in return. For example, Pig can sneak up really close to a gen and get a hit, but she needs to be hidden all the way to the gen (including from survivor perks like Spine Chill) and she also has poor visibility and slow movement speed for the entire time she's sneaking. Similar story with Ghost Face; he can certainly get some free hits on people at gens, but he still needs to sneak up to the gen without being spotted. Even if they successfully stealth for that free hit, though, they don't apply deep wounds, and they actually have to go through the normal recovery time after landing a hit. If multiple people are on that gen, then, they're still probably only going to get that one free hit. Legion can just stab the first person, deep wound them, and go right off to the next person without any sort of cooldown. There's no need for them to stealth up to the gen and approach from an unexpected angle. There's no movement speed reduction for crouching. They just need to check out the gen, see somebody, and go right into Frenzy. It's so frustrating lol, I could go on for ages about this.
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