Killer stop crying and accept the game wants to be balanced around 50/50
I think the biggest problem in dead by daylight is that a lot of killer don’t understand or can’t accept that the game is/ will be balanced around 50/50, that means that a killer played well if he gets 2 or more kills. But why so many killer expect to get 4k every match? A lot of them think „it don’t feels like a win if a survivor escape“. I can understand those killer cause it’s the goal of killer to kill survivors and if they don’t kill all four survivors think they miss their goal. So it’s a psychological problem of the game: it’s hard to understand that 3k are still a „win“. But those killer who can’t accept this 50/50 are the players who are crying for all the survivor perk nerfs and say the game is unbalanced or survivor sided. These are the player with a tryhard playstyles (tunneling, camping, insta mori, slug for 4k) what makes the game really unfun. You have to take a look on the other side, the survivor: if a killer could easy 4k every single game there are four players who couldn’t „win“, escape. It’s needed that every killer have different results: 0-1k, 2k or 3-4k, so the survivor gave the chance of 50/50 too. Sometimes you have some „bad games“ in a row, but in total you will get your 50/50, and that’s needed on both sides.
It’s a bit sad that the devs don’t show us the actual stats but here you can see the last one from november 2019:
You can see that the killrates were over 50% (2 kills) so it’s nearly balanced for both sides or more killersided (70%). When I play killer I’m still fine with 2k and around 25.000 bloodpoints, that’s mostly a „gg“ for both sides. So please stop crying and try to find a way to count 3k as your personal win and know that 2k are still fine. Play the game in a fair way and accept that you don’t need 4k every game and have fun. Nobody can „win“ always ;)
The only real issue is the actual matchmaking which makes it very difficult and unfair for lower rank killer who faces highrank survivors, but I hope the new matchmaking will coming soon and makes the matches for these player more fun.
I‘m very interested in what you are think about that, so feel free to leave a comment.
Comments
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First of all, if matchmacking doesn't work, the statistics don't work properly.
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It is the goal... but they haven't finished the changes needed
Those stats are on killers only... where's the survivor stats... SWF stats... Perk Stats
These stats are unfinished
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The matchmaking was broken still before the statistics. After the stats the infinit loops were removed and mapsizes reduced.
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At the time of this stats the killrate was around 70% so the escape rate is around 30% for a survivor and that includes swf ;)
A game needs always changes for the goal but the point is, that player can’t accept this goal.
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The truth is that as you say the game is perfectly balanced if they are games against survivors playing alone. Knowing this, I want to ask you something. Is the 4 person swf also balanced for you?
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So how about we gather stats on our own...
then post them here for everyone to see...
let's push the issue to show the devs that we care as much as they do about this game
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I think they focus on overbalancing killers when there are other, more important things, like overall perk balance and console optimization, for a start.
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Pretty sure the devs themselves already pointed out that these stats aren’t exactly useful and trustworthy stats. So many things aren’t taken into consideration with these stats:
Suicides on hook (DC penalty wasn’t a thing), AFK people, matchmaking, ... . These things are all included in those stats and when that’s the case you can’t make a proper statement about the kill rates.
To get back to your point, I think a lot of killers feel like they need the 4k to win because that’s how the game is actually set up. The game doesn’t end in a victory when the killer gets 2 kills. It continues until either they’re all dead or people escaped. Furthermore high ranking killers actually get punished for only getting a 2k and depip.
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I'm going to say a few things about your points and statements! 🙂
Outdated Statistics
The statistics you used were from November 2019, which as we all know, there's a lot that changed between then and now.
In other words, it's doesn't really do any good to use statistics from when the game have changed a lot from then.
Survivor Skill Curve
Survivors naturally have a higher skill ceiling than the killers and that means it will be very difficult to master them. Therefore, along the way, players will make a lot of mistakes and those mistakes can cost other survivors as well. If one person doesn't know what they are doing, the whole team pays and can potentially lose.
To compensate for Solo Queue and the harsh skill ceil survivors have, I believe it should be balanced around a 60/40 since newer players will skew results.
That's just my two cents on balance, and so far, I'll say this is the closest we ever been to a balanced game! 🙂
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A game will never be perfect. I said it’s a statistics which looks on solo and swfs...
I think swfs have a better escape rate than soloqueues, but in total the killrates are around 70%. No killer plays always against a four man swf and if a killer goes against a full swf they often gets 2k or more while the match is harder. Surely the swf have advantages to solo player but nearly 0 swf team will have always 4 escapes.
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The point is not the stat, I just post it here as a reminder.
You see the same problem like me that „2k don’t feel like a win“ and that’s what I like to talk about. A highrank killer don’t loose a pip for 2k, only if this two survivors die on the first hook. If a killer play well, have chases, defend gens, hook multiple survivor and kill 2 of them in the end (2k) he never loose a pip.
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None of these numbers mean a damn thing because matchmaking doesn't take into account skill, and resets frequently. So no. I can't count the amount of times I've seen matches where theres multiple red rank survivors going against a rank 20 killer, or multiple purple rank survivors going against a rank 15 killer, or a rank 1 killer going against a bunch of rank 8's.
None of these stats mean anything....period.
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You trust yourself a lot because of the statistics. There are several types of SWFs, one of them is the experienced SWF and they are what show that they have all the advantage against the killers. If an experienced SWF plays well, the killer will never have a chance. On the other hand, if the killer plays well he can get 2k for a small SWF error. This is a fact and I do not say more, I hope you understand.
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The stats were only a reminder and I told you it’s from nov... it should only show that the killrates were around 50/50. I want only show the player that expect to get always 4k, that that’s not the goal!
There were a lot of changes in the game for both sides, so I wish to see any actual statistic, but the devs told us they don’t want show it to us.
Newer player and „boosted“ red rank survivors make it a lot harder to escape.
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Killrates are part of the balance. If I facecamp 2 people and maybe get another altruistic survivor, I have a 75% Kill rate.
I even depipped while getting a 3k, because of survivors who overextended during endgame. Again 75%, but it's not a win.
The stats were released during the Trapper tome and after they
slightly reworked the basekit ofnerfed Nurse. So basically there a lot of factors, which will impact the statistics. Just looking at killrates during the victoriy cube times was fine, but now it's not the right way to look at balance.There is so much more to look at like SWF rates or suicide on hooks, disconnect rates, Babydwights getting hatch etc.IIRC the red rank killer stats even showed matches against non redrank survivors. Having high kill rates against potatoes.. I don't need to comment further on that.
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It's not the killers fault that so many survivors are so bad at this game. Even in red rank there are a ton of awful players who can't play as a team. Buff all killers and let survivors learn how to play the game. It's the only fair solution.
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Thanks for your comment.
You know that 2/2 only means you can have „good“ and „bad“ games but it’s/should be the result of a lot of matches.
For example 100 matches:
20x 0k = 0k
20x 1k = 20k
20x 2k = 40k
20x 3k = 60k
20x 4k = 80k
= 200k of max of 400k = 2/2
Nobody have 100x 2k... and for sure there are single killer which has fewer than 50/50, but there are player with more than that too. And this on killer and survivor side.
But you see a balancing goal of 4k wouldn’t make sense.
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Sure, the actual matchmaking destroys the balance and it’s unfair for these players!! I wrote and think it too.
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The point is that I don’t understand those player who expect 4k every game and crys for survivor nerfs...
Swfs are part of the game and the devs know that. But I think a killer on a same skill level will still gets in total of all the matches his 2k, sure there are matches without a kill but in others he will gets 4k, so it’s fine.
A lot of killer are just frustrated cause they think they need always 4k and that’s the issue.
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This is a terrible graph, because it doesn't break it down.
It doesn't break down the ranks, so brown ranks are thrown in with red. New players, inexperienced players, casual players, and competitive players all give different performance, yet this throws it all into one pot.
A good example of this is that kill rate. Trapper beats out Nurse by far, yet Nurse is a viable killer at the highest ranks. Trapper is not. Why does Trapper outperform Nurse in kills? Because this graph shoehorns everything into it.
It doesn't break down HOW the kills were handled. We know hook suicide is a thing. We know that dcing is a thing. We know that facecamping is a thing. Moris are a thing. Again, it's all lumped together.
Then you have SWF that further dilutes the stats. Some dev said that SWF escape rates are only 6% above solo, yet again, that has to be taken at face value, since a lot goes into it. Ranks, numbers, who they faced and how they handled it, etc.
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Both sides cry but thats the reason forums exist. So others can tell their opinion to Them and convince these players there is no need to cry about. You know discussions!
Also stats doesn't prove anything there are so much stuff that happens in the stats like for example dc's that also counts as kills.
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Well to be fair, it is kind of difficult to accept a 2k as a win when the remaining survivors are teabagging at the exit gate.
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If we asume that the win means a pip, 2k is never a win for the Killer. Its impossible to pip with 2k, even 3k and 4k sometimes you just stay on same rank. Its crazy.
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This. The game ingrains in you the need to 4k. In order to get +2 pip you need to 4k. No if ands or butts. And getting +1 requires ~3k.
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This game isn't balanced. Probably never will be. Getting 2 kills doesn't say that the game is balanced. I can camp two survivors and get those kills. Maps affect everything between people knowing some layouts better than others and the loops available. So much in this game affects those stats and in my opinion if the really wanted the balance then killers would need more nerds to make it closer to 50/50 in all ranks.
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If I don't 4k then I'm garbage at the killer I'm playing and need to improve. I will not accept a 2k as a win if anything that is a tie to me. Side note I'm garbage at most of the killers.
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It’s true. They tell survivors that escaping doesn’t matter and yet they always feel tilted by a 2k.
Its ironic because people say Clown is underpowered yet its easy to get a 2k with him. Killer mains define balanced as the killers that can get the 4k consistently.
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And that should be the task for the devs to find a way to give killer not the feeling they need to get always 4k! It’s unrealistic for a killer to get always 4k cause this would mean that survivor have zero chance to escape and it would be frustrating for survivors. But as long killer thinking they need 4k it’s for them very frustrating and they asks for survivor nerfs, play in a tryhard way and they feels always as a looser... that’s not fair and makes the game unfun.
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Man I wish BHVR never released this data.
Despite them saying time and time again to take this information with "a grain of salt" people still spread it around like some sort of undeniable fact.
I mean BHVR literally doesn't want to give out any more data due to this exact reason...
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Yeah the 2k 2E thing isnt in the game its a motto of the forums
If the BP, entity, endscreen, pip, emblems or literally any information in the game supported it people wouldn't disagree.
Let the match instantly come to a close the moment I get two kills and I'll believe you and accept balance accordingly
And I want a big "survivors failed" message on the escapees so they know they were suppose to help the team rather then sit in a bush and wait for gates/hatch.
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Because I don't pip with a 2K especially on some Killers like Plague.
Because a 2K isn't satisfying, I don't feel content that I did my job as Killer.
Because MANY variables impact it. (Skill difference, map rng, strategies, decisions, perks, add ons, swf or solo, etc etc etc.)
Because the match ended in a tie, 2 Survivors lost and the Killer "didn't win", so 60% of the players probably didn't have an enjoyable conclusion to the match.
Because the match is STILL going on, yes Meg I see you waiting in the gate, no i'm not going over to you because your just going to leave when I get over there because you want to Tbag, and this 2 minute timer is still too long when I have literally nothing to do besides maybe break a pallet I missed while the Survivor just waits until the last second before leaving without any risk.
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The fact is people expect to escape or get 4k always and that’s just impossible so there will be always discussions about nerfs, unbalance and „op“ powers, perks and situations.
I think the important thing is that the players have to realize that they can’t always „win“ and find a way to accept it and they stop crying all the time. See it how it is: it’s a game and a game should be fair for both sides and you should have fun!
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For starters these statistics are completely wrong as Kill Rates do not dictate "Win Rates". A win is what the game says is a win and that is the Emblem System, The emblem, system dictates your match result. If you depip thats a loss, if you black pip you draw, if you pip you win and if you 2 pip well you dominated i guess?
Also if you make this games balance based on 50/50 considering the emblem system exists on 2k the Killer will always Black Pip at best which is a draw (Red Ranks). This by default would cause a massive decrease in Killers playing at the high level simply because they just will not Pip (Win). Realistically it makes sense this game being balanced 70/30 because this is a 4v1 game thus 50/50 makes 0 sense. 50/50 implies you balance Killers to Survivor level thus they would never win because it is 4v1 not 4v4 or 1v1.
Another reason as to why this data is completely pointless is because Mori's, Camping First Hooks, Killing Self on Hook, Clutch End Game Noeds, Rancor's, DC's are considered "kills" therefore this data is not accurate at all.
If anything data that would be a lot more beneficial for balance would be things like Gen Speed Completion to Chase + Downing % like how many gens get done in the time a killer gets a down, Average time for all 5 gens to finish, average time for the Killer to 3 hook everyone. This data the devs give us is completely pointless and will not benefit balance at all.
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Quote: "You can see that the killrates were over 50% (2 kills) so it’s nearly balanced for both sides or more killersided (70%)."
The devs said they want an average of 2 kills and 2 escapes. Even 70% is still two kills since every survivor is 25%.
Also these stats include afk survivors, survivors that give up on the hook, survivors that are INCREDIBLY boosted and shouldn't even be on their specific rank, survivors that troll all game with no intention to escape etc.
If you think about it it's painfully obvious that the game is still survivor sided -at least on the highest level of play- (which most long term players who are experienced on both sides will agree on).
Get rid of:
- afk players
- players that give up on the hook
- players that run useless perks
- boosted players who can't even loop on red ranks
- players that hide instead of doing gens
- players that won't touch a generator whenever they're injured
- troll players who sandbag and sabotage other survivors rather than doing gens
etc.
And see where the kill rates go in the long run.
I can't play a single solo survivor game without noticing useless teammates that hide for minutes (total) then self care in a corner (even with Sloppy Butcher) and get downed in 10 seconds from full health. And they still manage to somehow drop all pallets in their crazy short chases.
Just think about what this game would look like WITHOUT these randoms that make it to red ranks every season.
That's why (some) killer mains complain about SWF, too. SWF teams often consist of people that -at the very least- understand how the game works as survivor. As a result many killers feel completely powerless even though they just destroyed a bunch of randoms one match before.
Should the game really be balanced around clueless survivors who derp around and mess up a million times while the killer has to play like a tournament player?
Besides this is what the 2 kill / 2 escape balance may look like on a reworked map:
Now you tell me does this look like a balanced game? The killer still got 2 kills using NOED so technically this is what an average match should look like? Doesn't seem like a fun game as killer.
Long story short: Balancing for a fixed number of kills is NOT actual balance due to the number of variables one being HOW DO THESE KILLS occur?
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the main problem is that the killers complain about the game against the party. party games are extremely small according to statistics. A couple of hundred thousand ordinary players suffer because of whining killers. I don't suffer I just start doing recklessness, take the eye and the injury and look for the killer so they will stop whining at last. It's a pity the game is searched for and loaded for no 20 seconds. I hope this is what the whining killers want and they will stop whining because the support still does not take survivors seriously on the forum and you can only influence them from inside the game. Now more than 2 generators do not start on how many I see but on statistics it is more visible. The match took longer to load, bugs like 2 years ago, breakouts are higher. But no matter, I went to a game and more as intended)
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do u spend same time in game as compared to whining on forums?
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They need to build the game to make it feel like 7/8 hooks feels like a win for a killer if the balance is to be closer to 2 kills/2 escapes.
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Reason is simple, because killers are told
2k = tie
3k = you get teabagged and "gg ez"
4k = win
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Not to mention all 4 survivors could pip in that situation too, even upon death. I die regularly in survivor games, but I pip even if I die LOL which technically, by game design = win.
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ill stop complaining onnce a 2k will actually be acknowledged as a win by the game.
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Heck i had this happen the other day. Got pair up with a rank 10 spirit, who was clearly new to the game and i was able to loop for days. Lots of people got injured but fell of them when down. Who had haunted grounds and noed, i believe they got 3 to 4 hooks that whole game from what i recalled. Only one of these hooks was from noed, which got destroy shortly after it pop up. Map was ormond, which might of played a role in it but the pallet spawns were not the most awful spawn for rng there. So yeah, a group of experienced survivors was put up against a newbie killer, on a map that favors them and won easily with a 4 man escape.
That and as others have shown on these forums, a experience killer can be pair up with rank 20s who only just install the game. Match making is so broken right now, you have no idea if the survivors or killers are on the same level of experience. That and since then, we have had map reworks, toolboxes changes and more killers added. So this data would be useless not only due to how outdated it is, due to it coming from a different era of the game when things work differently but also due to it lacking so many other factors that are important to make any sense out of this data. Like the skill level of both players being one of them, for clown could see like the best killer ever, if the clown player when against nothing but rank 20s all the time. That and the op makes the claim a majority of killers are like x. Yet show nothing to back it up. Which makes it seem like they just want to say majority of killers are bad people. Due to showing only useless data and not showing any proof a majority of killers think they will get a 4k a majority of the time. That and they never say what a fair way of playing is. Since everyone has their different idea of what counts as fair.
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One thing I find annoying is that I’ll often safety pip as a killer, even after getting a 4K. But as a survivor I can consistently pip, even when I feel like it’s been a slow game for me. Sometimes you’re punished as a killer for being able to down / kill the survivors fast. But if you just rush gens as a survivor you can still pip. That to me, isn’t balanced.
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This thread illustrates one of the main divides in the game.
You can sit all day, like I do and say "eh I got 25k, 4 stacks of BBQ and killed 2" thats a win for me,... but truth is, it is a loss.
A 2k is a loss for a killer, not a tie. The game wins are based on 4 categories that equate to a very simple way of deciding if you won or not. Pip or no pip.
Killer can kill 3 and still not pip. So judging kills as a measure of winning is inaccurate it is misleading players into what consists of a win or loss.
I dont have suggestions on how to fix it, but anyone can see there is a problem here somewhere.
If you dont pip in this game, you didnt win, thats how the game is designed, thats how it tallies points.
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As survivor on red ranks you don’t pip only for gen rush and escape, often you loose a pip in such games.
At the first change of the emblem-system it was harder for survivors to pip similar to the killers. But cause of all whining survivor the devs changed it for survivors again and now we have the result of a lot of potato red rank survivors, which were destroy by good killers and cause of these boosted survivors we have not enough purple or green survivors for the lower rank killers...
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That‘s how the game works.
The 2/2 is not a win, a win depends on all categories (chase, hooks, defend gens). The point is 4k is not a save win, so you can fast kill 4 survivor and still blackpip, cause you do not enough for all categories. That’s what a lot of killer don’t understand: you can have multiple survivors, have chases and kills and one or two escapes and you would pip and it’s a „gg“ for all five player. And if you have games with a black pip or loosing a pip, it’s fine, next game will be better.
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GR8 B8 M8
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Well the game doesn't award a 2k well enough. You barely get to safety pip at rank 1 from a 2k. It's unfun for the killer just getting two kills being considered a win because it's not. The objective has never been get two kills and it's not rewarded. A win is basically a 3k. I don't care if the survivor gets the trapdoor because it's luck based. Nothing I can do to get a 4k if the survivor camps trap door. If I slug I get called a try hard slugger by salty survivor mains when the game literally awards you for doing so with a two pip. Killers aren't crying because they aren't getting four kills every match. That's such a toxic survivor view point. I play both equally and when I'm survivor it's usually as a 4 man swf and I feel sorry for the killer most of the time because there really isn't much a killer can do against it and that is the main problem with killers. I'm fine with losing a match against survivors if I did something wrong, if I know I could have done something better to get more kills or points but when I down a survivor in record time and 3 gens still pop at once it's like what can you actually do. The game is balanced in some parts but in others it's very very unbalanced. And I think the main issue is the rank system. It's straight trash. And anyone defending it is part of the issue. The system first of doesn't work most of the time. But another issue is that if you get a 2k as killer your very likely to de pip or just about safety pip. That is not a win. No matter what you say about it being 50/50 the game is anything but. 3k is at least a win. A 2k is more like a draw. The game awards a 3k/4k more like a win by giving more pips. Where as a survivor by escaping there awarded tons of bp and given pips. If it were more satisfying getting a 2k and more rewarded then it wouldn't be that big of an issue. But some killers aren't that good and they do deserve some buffs. Map design and layout are also issues for survivors but more blatant on the killers side. As for survivor nerfs. Whilst yes they are big they are needed. Such as to deal with gen speeds, map sizes and balance. It's a nerf to survivors for sure but the fact is it's because survivors where too strong. They're better now but to say the game is 50/50 is complete rubbish. It's gonna take awhile especially with how slow there devs are to fix or improve the game in ways the whole community wants but eventually after nerfs and buffs to both sides it will get their but at it's current state, gen rushing, map balance, survivor wait times, useless perks on both sides, bugs and glitches. Toxicity in the community. The whole rank system. The bloodweb grind. Legendary skins not being worth it. These are issues that plague the game. And judging by how long it took devs to remove most god loops, who knows when they'll be fixed.
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that means that a killer played well if he gets 2 or more kills
That ain't how the game determines how well you play.
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I'm sorry but.. Wasn't the graph also released when there were Archive challenges for said killers? I.E Trapper.. Spirit...Etc..? Or are we gunna ignore that fact completely so to say, and not include actual ranks of these kills. aswel with skills, Not tryin' to be rude but... Unless you have updated Graphs, WITH Proof of said updated graphs, Please don't lie and say a 2/4 is alright, that's just my Opinion though,
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First, don't look at the stats. They are intentionally misleading. Second, in a 2kill/2escape scenario, the game rewards 4 of those players (the survivors) with a "pip", the in-game win system, and gives the killer a draw. By definition that is unbalanced. Even if it didn't, that's still 2 people that "won" a draw game. Still unbalanced. Still stupid. The pip and BP system needs to be fixed to accurately reflect the match before you can call the old 2/2 "balanced" and not have people feel like they're getting cheated, which they often legitimately are (on both sides).
And once again, don't bother with stats, if the ranking system actually worked properly you would likely see most low-rank matches end in 4k's and most high-rank matches end in 0-1k's. And that's without going into the fact that some of the strongest, yet most mechanically difficult, killers have extremely low kill and pick rates. Looking at the stats you'd think trapper was god-tier and nurse was borderline worthless.
Edit: Also, I could absolutely win every single match of survivor I play. Either I pip in every. Single. Match. Or I go find a sweaty SWF that does gens and plays pallets safe. It doesn't exactly take a lot of effort to beat a killer, just a lot of m1 holding.
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