justification for pig's ambush being considered a basic attack along with a few other buff idea's

AChaoticKiller
AChaoticKiller Member Posts: 3,104
edited July 2020 in General Discussions

we all know pig has received nerf after nerf with this one being considered by the devs to be defining what a "basic attack is" and im going to give a few reasons why it should be considered one

first off it is only a extended lunge with no special effects like giving deep wounds like legion or being able to break pallets or be activated quickly like demogorgons shred. It is literally just a extended lunge that even gives survivors a warning before it starts and i also don't think that just because it needs to be charged to start should make it no longer a basic attack. now lets look at a few other killers power's that are considered basic attacks.

  • nurse lunging after blinking
  • spirit lunging after exiting phasing
  • wraith lunging after uncloaking
  • ghost face lunging out of shroud
  • death slinger spearing and hitting a survivor.
  • and the biggest offended to this myers in tier 3 since his attacks not only insta downs but his lunge is also longer.

now a lot of you will look at that list and say "hey they all used the regular lunge to land hits" and your right but here's the thing their power interacted with their lunge to land the hit and all power's in that list affected the lunge in some way while and or made it easier to land a hit. all pigs ambush is is a extended lunge it doesn't apply deep wounds and it doesn't insta down or can even be activated on the spot. the least the dev's can do is make it a basic attack so perks like make your choice which is one of her perks work with her power.


now for the other two buff idea's

the first one is simply making her crouch speed faster to that of ghost face's and making her FOV slightly higher so she can see over grass. this wouldn't be on par with ghost face since he can attack right out of his shroud and he can crouch faster than pig. the FOV being raised is something im sure everyone wants and would just be a very nice quality of life change.

The second buff is to make it so her roar when starting ambush instead starts after she charges it when she starts her ambush. I know this idea isn't original but im including it anyway since it does nothing but tell the survivor your thinking of trying to ambush so they can get a head start with sprint burst or if at a loop they can just move to a safer spot at it or abandon it.

here's some other ideas by you guys i liked.

  • making her ambush longer so it can't be outrun by leaving the loop as easily by 1 or 2 seconds.
  • making ambush apply deep wounds.


Post edited by AChaoticKiller on

Comments

  • FOOTS
    FOOTS Member Posts: 41

    well said!!!

  • AChaoticKiller
    AChaoticKiller Member Posts: 3,104
    edited July 2020

    this idea is a very debatable one because you could get 1 or 2 survivors and trap them and then just patrol your box's. if no one is downed or hooked the survivors are not only on a death timer from the traps but also from end game collapse and if your just chasing them off the box's it will be next to impossible for them to escape especially if you see them try a box and it being the wrong one because then you have less boxs to patrol. it just wouldn't be fair.

    edit: of course you can do this currently if someone has a trap on and the last gen gets powered all you have to do is open a gate and then stop them from using the boxs and they will more than likely die.

  •  Antares2332
    Antares2332 Member Posts: 1,088

    #reworkthepig

  • Flarefire_Xx
    Flarefire_Xx Member Posts: 353

    The ones you put on after wouldn’t count, but the ones prior would so it would make survivors wary of doing the last gen if multiple of them had a trap on their head. It could also lead to amazing plays around BW and it would give her very strong stalking throughout the entire game

  • PassarinoT
    PassarinoT Member Posts: 910

    I kinda agree with you, but also it feels more like a Demogorgon type attack. She has a diff animation, her movement speed is linked to the attack, whereas spirit and wraith are not, and it requires a charge up rather than a simple M1. But I see where you are getting your idea.

  • MadArtillery
    MadArtillery Member Posts: 826
    edited July 2020

    God yes the whole roar thing almost exclusively seems to make aware survivors leave loops. I had a lot of fun landing ambushes at loop against newbier survivors but against people who know how to face pig all ambush can do is fake roar and hope you can land a hit by walking before next loop. Probably why I really dropped off playing her because it's not exactly fun to have your power degenerated into just a rawr button against anyone competent.

    Honestly they should focus more on her ambush, it's fun all the mindgames and stuff you can try to pull at loops if you actually get the chance, that chance is pretty rare though.

    As for the basic attack thing I'm meh on. It would hurt her minimal synergy with stbfl but even then I'm not sure it actually would given how often atleast one hit in a down will an ambush hit you'd probably just generate more tokens overall to make up for it. Not like you can reliably use ambush to reduce token stack loss, it's not reliable like shred is so trying too hard to use that will just lose you hit opportunities as ambush requires rather specific conditions. Her ambush after hit animation doesn't get shorter with stbfl anyway. Real pain in the ass that, lost me a few kills using ambush.

    I'd still like an extra second or so of ambush duration just so she's less left in the dust the moment someone steps away during ambush and suddenly she'd actually be a threat on truck loops with it.

  • RizeAki
    RizeAki Member Posts: 1,209

    The big problem is it’s just not an m1 attack so for that reason should be counted as one

  • DrDeepwound
    DrDeepwound Member Posts: 2,557

    I don't know why but I got the urge to start playing Pig more over the last week. She was one of my neglected, not played, not even leveled past 50 killers, but I am now p3ing her and enjoying her more.

  • johnmwarner
    johnmwarner Member Posts: 3,793

    But having it NOT count actually makes it work well with STBFL so not everyone would be in favor.

    Also yes pls change the roar timing

  • mydogmax19
    mydogmax19 Member Posts: 266
    edited July 2020

    Her ambush attack are best at loops with pallets. Also for sneak attacks. Her power has potential when utilized correctly, I'd say. I have no problem with how she is currently as far as effectiveness with the ambush thing.

  • NuclearBurrito
    NuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,807

    Not quite. Pig's ambush also has different missed cooldown properties, a special charge property, a different audio que, terror radius interaction ect.

    Frenzy also has no successful cooldown, can't down and activates KI. Several special properties beyond simply an on-hit effect

    Demon Strike controls completely differently from a regular basic attack, has a different hitbox, can hit several Survivors at the same time and can break pallets/walls. Again, several non-trivial differences

    I think the fury basic attack has a different hitbox too?

    If you take Myers instead, his only difference is lunge duration. Something that used to not be standardized anyways. The instant down is from the exposed status effect not from a special property of the attack itself.

  • Snowbawlzzz
    Snowbawlzzz Member Posts: 1,419

    Demon strike shouldn't count. Instadowns are enough, it doesn't need to apply status effects as well.

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,480

    This would nerf pig heavily, STBFL is one of her best perks because of this, especially if you are using the ambush charge speed addons.

  • Demogordon_Ramsay
    Demogordon_Ramsay Member Posts: 1,503
    edited July 2020

    I dunno man, those differences seem pretty damn trivial to me.

    Myers and Ghostface want to:

    Know your location

  • Snowbawlzzz
    Snowbawlzzz Member Posts: 1,419

    Demonstrike is basically a chainsaw, Mike and Ghosty don't get hypermobility

  • SloppyKnockout
    SloppyKnockout Member Posts: 1,505

    No, her Ambush should not be a basic attack. It's not an M1 attack. Any other answer is incorrect.

  • Warcrafter4
    Warcrafter4 Member Posts: 2,917

    Technically a different ability: Demon Dash.

    Demon strike is the non running version aka non chainsaw version.

  • NuclearBurrito
    NuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,807

    They aren't.

    Think about the unrelenting and STBFL perks. If hypothetically they applied to non-basic attacks the math on those would work out differently compared to basic attacks because they would be using different source numbers.

    For example, what exactly would STBFL do on Legion's frenzy? Would it somehow make the cooldown even faster? The answer really doesn't matter, because the point is that these perks are designed around the numbers in the basic attacks they are effecting. So if you have them apply to non-basic attacks then you get balance problems sometimes.

    Taking Pigs ambush in particular, the extreme length of the lunge that's normally balanced out with the extended cooldown makes unrelenting a problem. This is why the perk didn't work at all even when the attack DID trigger on hit effects. But you can't have something work with some basic attack effects and not others without making the entire system super confusing, so the on-hit effects were removed making it consistent with the cooldown interaction.

    Myers meanwhile doesn't have ANY of these issues. The instant down is through the status effect not the attack

  • Demogordon_Ramsay
    Demogordon_Ramsay Member Posts: 1,503

    “They aren't.”

    They are.

    “For example, what exactly would STBFL do on Legion's frenzy? Would it somehow make the cooldown even faster? The answer really doesn't matter, because the point is that these perks are designed around the numbers in the basic attacks they are effecting. So if you have them apply to non-basic attacks then you get balance problems sometimes.”

    The only balance problem I’ve ever seen out of STBFL in regards to basic attacks is that Demogorgon can completely ignore its downside thanks to Shred not being considered a basic attack, and that has nothing to do with the numbers.

    “Taking Pigs ambush in particular, the extreme length of the lunge that's normally balanced out with the extended cooldown makes unrelenting a problem.”

    Pig literally has two addons that reduce the missed dash cooldown. If these aren’t a problem, why is Unrelenting?

    “But you can't have something work with some basic attack effects and not others without making the entire system super confusing, so the on-hit effects were removed making it consistent with the cooldown interaction.”

    It’s really not that confusing. You know what’s more confusing? Having all these attacks that are literally just normal M1 lunges with modifications towards a stat here and there not considered a normal M1 lunge.

    “Myers meanwhile doesn't have ANY of these issues. The instant down is through the status effect not the attack”

    1. It used to be through the attack before the Exposed status effect was invented, and even if it were, why does that matter? Literally, why does it matter? It accomplishes the exact same effect. The only difference is where the coding gets its instadown info from.
    2. Even ignoring the fact that this is all hokey, you... do realize that Myers’s lunge has a different missed attack cooldown than normal lunges, right? So your whole “different numbers” argument is thrown out the window, at least for Unrelenting.
  • NuclearBurrito
    NuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,807

    "Pig literally has two addons that reduce the missed dash cooldown. If these aren’t a problem, why is Unrelenting?"

    Simple. The numbers.

    The addons have less of an impact on the cooldown than Unrelenting does. The same reason applies to demogorgon btw.

  • NuclearBurrito
    NuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,807

    Also Myers lunge has the same cooldown as normal.

  • Demogordon_Ramsay
    Demogordon_Ramsay Member Posts: 1,503

    “The addons have less of an impact on the cooldown than Unrelenting does.”

    1. The difference is incredibly small. When you look at how long missed attack cooldowns are, 30% less recovery time as opposed to 20% is not that much more time saved. Both do literally nothing if the Survivor actually runs away from your dash rather than continuing to sit at the loop like a dingus.
    2. You can stack them to have a bigger reduction than Unrelenting. But let me guess, it’s not problematic for some reason.

    “The same reason applies to demogorgon btw.”

    And much like Unrelenting, those addons suck huge peen.

    “Also Myers lunge has the same cooldown as normal.”

    No, it doesn’t. Evil Within 3 has a noticeably longer miss cooldown.

  • WeenieDog
    WeenieDog Member Posts: 2,184
    edited July 2020

    I guess maybe what they consider a "basic attack" are attacks that aren't made while channeling a power. With spirit,nurse, deathslinger, etc, the power ends before you input m1.


    Myers' power is weird when you put it like that, as you could say that he is channeling but also applies on hit effects. It could be the way his abilities are programmed. It could be that ghostface and myers exposed effect is done by the power itself and not applied by an m1 (so it would be similar to the above with spirit and nurse), while someone like the Oni is given the effect of double damage (well, along with the everything else).

    I do miss the on hit with legion for its utility with Hex:Third Seal. But I'm not surprised it got hit with their whole 'removing problematic perk combinations' like the "Forever" X builds with sloppy, thana, pop, ruin.

    I am surprised that some survivor perks didn't get equally combed over.

  • AChaoticKiller
    AChaoticKiller Member Posts: 3,104

    than you haven't gone against competent survivors because unless its on the side of a building and the survivor hesitates to leave the loop your not getting that hit with ambush. you can never land ambush at loops if survivors instantly leaves the loop or get if they get on the opposite side of you and make it to the pallet when they hear you go into crouch and you try to ambush.

    as for the basic attack it seems controversial and while I personally would like to see it as one it seems that the best way to balance it would to make it more different than the m1. This can be done by either giving it the deep wounds affect as someone said earlier which i actually really like however it may be too strong with RBT's. I also like making it longer by another second or two since the main problem with ambush is you can out run it if you leave the loop on the opposite side of the of the pig and she can't hit you.

  • Raven014
    Raven014 Member Posts: 4,188

    Legion had no impact on frenzy strikes because it was already considered no cooldown on attacks. So it was a worthless perk for them anyway...

  • VonCrow
    VonCrow Member Posts: 389

    Make a survivor unable to escape if they have a trap in their head.

  • DBD78
    DBD78 Member Posts: 3,462

    Mm and survivors with a hat should not be able to hatch escape.

  • mydogmax19
    mydogmax19 Member Posts: 266
    edited July 2020

    I do go against competent survivors most of the time. I land hits with ambush on loops and I dont. Maybe your just not good with ambush attacks thats why you cant thrive with her ambush ability. It's odd how you think you know my experiences on dbd without asking but instead assuming. I play both sides and know when competence is shown, maybe you dont have it with the pig. I'm all about her getting buffed though specifically regarding her head traps to be actually effective and not just a distraction.

  • DrDeepwound
    DrDeepwound Member Posts: 2,557
    edited July 2020

    wasnt it like that? but was too difficult for players and removed.

  • PigMainClaudette
    PigMainClaudette Member Posts: 3,842

    It is still like that. The trap must be ACTIVATED for that to work, they have to leave via an exit gate and cannot be dropped over the line by the Pig.


    Traps only activate after a generator is complete, so no endgame traps.

    Hatch does not activate the trap.

  • DrDeepwound
    DrDeepwound Member Posts: 2,557

    ok, but wasn't it changed to be that way? I only recently started to play Pig, she is one of the final killers I need to p3.

    I was under the impression it was nerfed before I took my 10 month break, I was gone from the game for 3 DLCs

  • PigMainClaudette
    PigMainClaudette Member Posts: 3,842

    It was changed to this at the time Endgame Collapse was introduced. Well, the traps not being activated automatically after all the generators was. Everything else is still the same.