“Sweat squads” NEED to be hard to defeat
One of the major topics that we always see in the forum is how “swf sweat squads” are op, unfair and impossible to defeat and called to be nerfed. Well, my take is that they are supposed to be like this. Real sweat squads are quite rare to find, and members of those teams are probably all really good players with an incredible amount of time spent in game and high skill cap. It is quite obvious to my eyes that an equally skilled player should be able to verse them. Not easily, but still make it manageable.
Now, let’s talk about you, the killer complaining. You’re probably close to average with some variance, because that’s how picking randomly an element from a huge pool of items works, with not that many hours (and 1000 hours AREN’T that many) into the game, and you’re demanding that players with an incredibly higher experience than you get nerfed and substantially punished just for being better than you. I’m sorry but that’s not how that works, especially because these kinds of squads are indeed rare to find, and if you think that the majority of teams you verse are ‘toxic op swf’ that you can’t counter, again I’m sorry but you really need to stop a second and make a self critique about YOUR skill level, because as much as you’re probably around average, the same works for the majority of the survivors you will face. Record your games and rewatch them, criticize your decision making and see what you could’ve done instead.
I know that when facing real sweat squads it’s frustrating and annoying, and most of the times it ends up with a feeling of impotence, but that doesn’t mean they are the problem.
And nerfing them will affect every other player in the game. Killers have to kill yes, but survivors have to survive. Devs can’t make the latter impossible just because some average dude complains he cannot beat a team of players with a lot more experience than him.
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All I have to say right now is I completely agree.
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Even a sweaty killer with the same amount of hours would not win against most sweat squads.
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This is the issue, not that they can't be beaten. Survivors are in the power role, and until BHVR changes that, killers will always have to rely on survivor mistakes, not the other way around.
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There are ways you can nerf SWF sweat squads without nerfing everyone else.
For example, you could do stuff like, remove/nerf object of obsession. Randos aren't using OOO to constantly communicate where the killer is to the entire time, only SWF squads are. You can nerf looping, but then increase the number of pallets in the map, because sweat squads are hyper efficient and perfectly loop, but rando people don't, and in fact it would buff randos cuz there would be more pallets.
The reality is though, you need to balance a game at the highest level of play, or there is no point playing your game and improving. Not doing so will result in a game not having longevity. Why do you think DotA has been around for 15 years? Why do you think CS has been around for 20 years?
There are a variety of ways you can do this that make meaningful change. This video talks about how they did this with TF2 by nerfing things that were OP in high level play, but not in normal person play:
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While you're not wrong, you're completely ignoring the other side of the coin. "Real sweat killers" should be as difficult to beat. And that's where the problem comes from. Survivor potential significantly outweighs killer potential. Survivors playing optimally will have the advantage over killers playing optimally. The reason your survivor sweat squads are so "rare" is because survivors of enough skill can be played with low effort and still come ahead against your average killers. Why try hard when you can win by just playing regularly? Meanwhile killers have to try hard in order to beat regular survivors which is why you see so many more "sweaty" killers.
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Difficult yes..but not impossible..and EVERY killer should have the tools if they learn to use them..issue is the dev's haven't gone the extra mile to make solos in the proper setting for that to be possible without the resulting clash of titans to squash the lower players..hence why only a few killers are allowed to stay on beat with the top atm..don't look at this one sidedly or you'll just look like your demeaning and degrading needlessly
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How do you know that your reason for "sweat squads" being so rare doesn't also apply to the rarity of impossible to beat "sweaty" killers?
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"demanding that players with an incredibly higher experience than you get nerfed and substantially punished just for being better than you"
Enough said.
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The reason OP is being "one sided" is because complaints originate mainly from one side. If people cared about how hard optimal killers are to beat, OP would mention it. Unfortunately, only survivors are allowed to be called OP on the forums.
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No, survivors are not the power role the killer is the power role and will decid how the match will go and the survivors most plan on how to get there objectives done
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If a sweaty SWF group plays the game, don't pair them with the Clown who has no addons. I think that would be okay.
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Agreed. Matchmaking is a vital part of balance. If ranks stretched further into higher echelons of play, that could cause more killers to play optimally and challenge them, perhaps exposing the true balance that was once hidden from us.
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lol okay dude, I bet you hate Legion too cause "he finds me easily!"
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I think the issue is not everyone is a tournament player and those builds and things they do are meant for tournaments not to run every single game which begs the question why do they do it? They don’t learn anything new or get anything from it with how fast it is it’s 10-20 min wait time for a 2-4min game that has a determined outcome I never get where that is fun but maybe that’s just me cuz I enjoy a challenge
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Because realistically they're the only ones that break the game
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No i dont, sure hes annoying but i dont hate it, also what does me hating legion have to do with anything?
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it should be a challenge, but it shouldn't be frustrating, and it certainly shouldn't limit the viable builds a killer can bring. I shouldn't be punished without recompense for bringing Third Seal and Insidious just because the survivors are using a third party program to communicate and "cheat" around the game's intended mechanics. I don't know how how to solve that, but that's my position regardless.
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So... here's the issue. It isn't actually with 'sweat squads' specifically. It's that they are not being matched with comparable level killers. Matchmaking in this game takes a backseat to queue times it seems. And queue times are only going to be worse if BHVR continues to make changes to the game that punishes killers. So it's a downward spiral of sorts until some significant changes can be made. 1. Matchmaking needs to actually work. 2. Add VOIP to the game so BHVR aren't trying to balance two separate games. 3. Once 1 and 2 are in place they can start looking at the statistics & listening to their playerbase and make appropriate balancing changes.
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Lol thats not true though people like Umbra, Otz, and Tru3 prove thats not the case
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Those same people also lose to coordinated teams as well. Not only that if you want to bring up names ill throw in Marth and his depip squad. 100 games, out of those I believe only 12 killers didn't depip, that means safety. They even did it without perks.
Survivors are 100% the power role and in control.
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Yeah everyone loses at times you can't say "OH LOOK SOMEONE LOST THAT MEANS THE OPPOSITE SIDE IS THE POWER ROLE!!!!!!!!!" Like no...the ONLY thing which makes survivors semi a power role is gen times but without those survivors would never be in the power role. I mean making Gen times 100 seconds instead of 80 IMO would be a huge start to solving that but really after that survivors are pretty balanced.
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Marth and his SWF literally proved how overpowered SWF is. They did all that without perks, they even did it again without communication. 200 games total. Why do you ignore that?
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Because we're literally ignoring so many factors. How good were the killers, how good is Marth (Ion even know who that is tbh), when were these games recorded etc etc. I only found depip squad videos from 2 years ago when the game was EXTREMELY different
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What? What factors? They were 4 survivors without perks going against red rank killers, even Scott Jund. Scott I believe was the first to actually safety pip against them.
The fact that 4 survivors without perks can go 100 games straight with escapes and forcing every killer except 12 to depip is ridiculous.
Oh I forgot to mention the 4 survivors who did this are all killer mains, they did it to show how easy survivors have it, and that they control the pace of the game.
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I...I just listed the very important factors going into it...
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If the MMR works as intended, sweat squad survivors will be in the top 1% playing against sweat god nurses(if there are any left).
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survivors should be the power role but they are nothing we can do about it.
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Because of pure obvious logic. If the reason for "sweat squads" being rare is because the game is easier for survivors, then it's a logical impossibility for "sweat killers" to be rare for the same reason.
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Sweaty squads should be hard to beat. The thing is, that should be because their skill can win them a game, not because 16 second chance perks leaves the killer no counterplay. Play for 12 hooks? Genrushed. Tunnel someone? DSed. Slug anyone? Unbreakable. Outplay someone in a chase? Dead Hard to the nearest pallet.
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This line of logic falls apart when you realize that they can be statistically impossible to defeat unless THEY actively make mistakes.
The numbers are so far in favor(Gen times downtimes/hook times) in their favor that it stops being hard and becomes impossible for most killer's(The characters not the players) kits even with the most powerful possible add-ons,perks, and an ebony to win.
Simply put this logic would work if: *Most* Killers(The characters not the players) could win by skill in these match ups without their opponent's mistakes.
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It's okay for one side to be really skilled such that they are a force to be reckoned with. The problem comes from when one side is optimal enough that it doesn't really matter how optimal the other side is. That to me is a sign of balance issues.
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I really think you should get notified if it's a SWF and get a bloodpoint bonus for playing against them. That way you know when you need to sweat back. There's nothing like being barely awake and chasing after someone running tiles and seeing 3 gens pop simultaneously before you start wishing you put end game perks on your slasher.
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So it's a logical impossibility that you gave the correct reason for "sweat squads" being rare?
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There is no test of skill when I have 16 crutch perks every single game to go against meaning I have no way to do anything what needs nerfed is how stupid those perks stack together allowing people to save in your face but what can you do? They have bt to block a hit ds if you do down them and unbreakable if you try slugging
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Not all swf are sweaty...
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To all those who said something like "only way for us to win is for survivors to make mistakes".. I'm just... Idk.. Are you really so insecure about your own abilities that you think you are unable to turn a chase or the game in your favor unless the opposite team makes a mistake? That really just means, again, you need more experience, it has nothing to do with them being op.
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"it has nothing to do with them being op"? let me tell you that you don't have the experience as a killer if you just can't admit that survivors are forever be on the op player side
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Win some lose some. Stop blaming the game for everything.
The whole "killers can only win if survivors make mistakes" is a very pathetic line of thinking. Also, spoiler alert- survivors make mistakes in the game all the time. Even good ones.
Killer is not as hard as you guys make it out to be.
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Sweat squads should be pit against sweaty killers i’m not going to want to try a new build killer and wait 10 minutes for a lobby only to be put against a squad with a OoO user someone who’s obviously above my skill level at chases and 2 people pushing gens
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Any link to these videos? I wanna watch
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I completely agree, SWAT teams are supposed to be the top notch on the Survivor food chain, the apex predator, the perfect Survivor made from endless loops, unbreakable will and absolute flashlight blinds. Average people are not supposed to beat them easily, same goes for the super duper good Killers like Ortzvada, Truetalent, Zubat etc (or wathever you write them I dont really follow youtubers), regualar joes are not supposed to get 4 escapes against those guys. We should be honored to be paired against people of said skill and marvel at the shenanigans both roles can lash out when you reach the zenith of skill.
A more average comparison would be you and your team of pals from the neighborhood playing a soccer match against Manchester United or Barcelona, you are going to get grinded to fine powder but you dont go to FIFA forums and write endless posts about how poorly balanced soccer is.
And thats normal, Developers have stated they aim to balance around 2 kills and 2 escapes, even a match of the best players in both roles should end with that result most of the times. They aim for trials to end in ties not wins (for neither side).
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Aiming for a 2k average doesn't justify that the game is unbalanced and favors survivors
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His point is another though, I did mention myself it's frustrating and not fun, and he's addressing them, not the killers (except the passive aggressive take at the beginning of the video, which I completely agree with)
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It doesn’t though lol
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I partially agree with you, but the problem with these squads are that you already know the outcome. You will lose, even if you sweat yourself camp, tunnel slug. They can counter all of that.
Your argument was that these groups shouldn't be nerfed, because they are rare? But look what happened to nurse. They nerfed her even she was statistically weakest killer and hand full of nurse mains kept defeating survivors. Now nurse is so rare i have seen her less than 10 times since her "rework"
You can make changes to SWF without gutting solo play easily, but often times survivor mains use the "poor victim solo players" as an excuse why something broken shouldn't be touched. Firstly i would nerf OoO as it gives SWF groups far too big advantage. Also DS needs to be looked at to be more actual anti- tunneling perk
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No, the argument was not that they should not be nerfed because rare, but because nerfing these kind of squads simply cannot be done without in someway nerfing survivor as a whole. Solo queue is already hard as it is, it cannot be made even harder just to counter a negligible minority of the playerbase
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sweat squads have a 90%+ winrate against the strongest possible killer players in this game with the strongest possible killers with the strongest possible addons. Your point would make sense if this was more like 50% winrate.
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Nah ur prolly just bad if u think they're not rare
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As someone who equally plays on both sides.All I can really say is that both sides have illiterate individuals who are one sided.
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