Visit the Kill Switch Master List for more information on these and other current known issues: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/299-kill-switch-master-list
We encourage you to be as honest as possible in letting us know how you feel about the game. The information and answers provided are anonymous, not shared with any third-party, and will not be used for purposes other than survey analysis.
Access the survey HERE!
Why do some players complain about second chance perks?
To start off this is a non biased thread so speak up if you have an answer no matter which side you play.
So why do some players complain about second chance perks? There is quite literally almost 5 threads a day talking down people who use ds,unbreakable,noed etc. People say that these perks reward bad plays and in many cases yes it does but why complain? Example there was a thread yesterday about ds and why it's used? Then the feedback was unanimous. I kept scrolling and scrolling and I mostly saw people saying there is no counter play which is completely god awfully wrong. Then they brought up unbreakable and oh boy did all the karens start shunning and complain to everyone with a fair point.
They talked about ds and unbreakable but not noed? The main second chance perk for some killers? If you haven't guessed it most of the people in that thread didn't have a problem with noed. In case some of you new players haven't heard or seen noed well all you need to know that it's a second chance perk that makes it so if all the gens get finished then noed activates. It is a hex perk so it requires a totem so it does have counterplay but it is hard as to get through all the totems sometimes. It gives an instadown and a speed boost of 8 percent at t3.
So to sum this all up. Why do some players complain about ds,unbreakable, and noed (the main second chance perks). It does obviously rewards some bad plays because they are second chance perks. It's not like you can use those perks whenever the hell you want because they obviously have prerequisites that have to be done first.
Oh and before some of you say "YoU ObvIOusLY nEvEr pLAyeD at rEd RaNks" then just stfu because players having more skill than rank 20's isn't a goddamn excuse.
None the less I would love to hear some feedback with people who have fair points and not just pulling ######### out of their ass. Or the most common things that players say. Like there is no counterplay because there is. Don't mention swf because that is just a smart move on a players part. Finally don't mention that noed is op because that only guarantees a kill but doesn't mean the whole game goes downhill because of one unlucky player getting caught.
I NEED ANSWERS PEOPLE!!!
Edit: I found my answer. It's basically that yes in the right hands these second chance perks can give too big of an advantage against the opposing side. I want to thank all of you who helped me figure this out.
Comments
-
What is the point when you have already made up your mind?
You think DS unbreakable adrenaline and sanctioned cheating (swf) are fine.
End of story.
9 -
Ds and unbreakable are stupidly powerful together. Noed has a direct counter. Rattle some skellys.
9 -
It is fine.
If there was a downvote button I’d probably get wrecked for this opinion but I think it’s players who are not particularly good at the game who complain about them.
Their rules and use are clear and easy to play around.
If we want to do a wHaT aBoUt then yeah duh NOED is fine too. The game is actually in an amazing spot mechanically. MMR needs to settle so that deficiency in player skill can become more transparent, which is again my hunch.
2 -
You think DS Unbreakable isn't a crutch, but noed is? Lmfao.
4 -
Because you screwed up and get a free pass. That's the long and short, really. It just straight up unfair to your opponent. DBD is a game about punishing mistakes, but the game has perks that remove mistkaes. That's fine for a single player game where your opponent is a computer, but not for a PvP game where your opponent worked hard and you outperked them.
Edit: I should also clarify, I don't really think there's any second chance killer perks. NOED and Enduring are probably the closest, but Enduring is more a QoL chase perk and NOED is the facecamping of perks: It only really gets you 1 kill.
9 -
I think you may have misread my post. DS, unbreakable, and NOED are all fine and dandy to use in my view.
lmfao,
1 -
Let's talk about the meaning of "crutch" for a moment. Crutches are things that you lean on when you're weak, right. So it would stand to reason that a crutch in a game would be used by those that are insecure about their abilities. NOED fits this definition to a tee. Confident killers will not run NOED because they're confident that they can win before getting to the end game. However, for killers that are insecure it is quite common. DS and unbreakable are meta perks, but they're not crutch perks in the sense that they are almost never run at low ranks. Survivors who are weak rely on self-care because they are not confident that they can last in a chase and are uncomfortable being hurt. So self-care is a crutch.
Using a build that has synergies is not a crutch either. Any proper build will take advantage of synergies between perks, this is true for killer and survivor.
0 -
It was true until survs got killer perk synergy removed :(
But you can't touch me perks are fine for survivors it seems..
1 -
There are plenty of synergies between killer perks and abilities. I'll give you several examples.
Ruin and Surveillance
Nemesis and any obsession perk
Pop and Thrilling
Monitor and Infectious .
Now, I will say that Killers are stuck using a smaller list of useful perks as compared to survivor and that I think needs to change.
1 -
You can chase the guy that unhooked his friend, end the chase and patrol your gens, find the unhooked one and down him. Now, with a high pressure killer, you just pick him up and get most likely ds'ed, because 45% of survivors use it (developer statistics). But for a low pressure killer, every hook and second is important. The survivor makes a mistake and instead of get punished for it, he gets rewarded with a 2nd chance and depending how well he loops, can extend that from a few seconds to dozen of seconds - minute. Oh, and you can heal up indefinitely with help, so if you let him escape, full health yay!
And because so many ppl use ds, killers just slug them, not picking em up for a minute (again, every second counts). He does not even have to have DS, the fear that the survivor has it, makes it slug them instead of hooking. Combine that with unbreakable, and slugging is not an option either, again 2nd chance for mistakes.
Survivors loop so badly sometimes, but get rewarded with those crutch perks for their mistakes. That's one reason, camping exists, because the winning chances with 3 survivors left is much lower than with 4.
1 -
This content has been removed.
-
I like this one.
0 -
It sounds like a great answer!
0 -
Survivors survive, they need second chance perks. Killers are hunters, they need tracking, information and lethality perks.
2 -
support and reassurance, lol. Like a teddy bear. LOL.
0 -
This content has been removed.
-
Love this answer as well!
0 -
The only people who don't complain about 2nd chance perks are the ones using them every single match.
0 -
Or you know people that actually understand how they aren't op.
3 -
Claiming that a majority of people will disagree with you or call your opinion wrong doesn't make you bold or a martyr: it just makes you wrong AND loud.
The game isn't balanced, the MMR system isn't working, and the playerbase is going to suffer for it. The second chance perks wouldn't be so bad if survivors had secondary objectives to accompany gens, but with the second chance perks, the game is a fast-paced, stress-inducing sweatfest.
NOED guarantees a total of zero kills if the team is running enough protection/second-chance perks. Those perks are active all game, btw. NOED only procs if there's a totem left after the survivors have completed their objective.
You can't compare the killer's one second chance perk with the litany of survivor perks that all for survivors can run.
0 -
This content has been removed.
-
You see this guy gets it.
1 -
Explain to me how 4 DS, Adrens, BTs and Unbreakables is not OP? Without saying "Oh, what are the odds of you running into that?"
Considering it's already happened to me id say the odds are pretty damn good :P
2 -
Bruh this sounds like a swf we aren't talking about that because that is probably the only op thing the outshines everything else.
1 -
Even if it wasn't swf well then I guess that sucks.
0 -
I don't need to retort to an argument that lacks any foundation. Because there are no teddy bears in dead by daylight, I think we can agree that there are no crutches either lol. Decisive Strike is a bit to pointy to be reassuring or supportive. LOL. And you think that my definition was built to fit a narrative. You're a joke. And a funny one at that.
1 -
One second chance perk isnt a problem, stacking second chance perks is the problem, especially when all four players are doing it AND communicating.
It's like old forever freddy allowed you to stack gen slowdown to the point of being unwinnable.
1 -
Headsets trump all ><
0 -
"To start off this is a non biased thread"
*reeks of bias in the very first paragraph*
Like this one said, you already have your mind made up. I mean, if you can't figure out why people dislike a perk for rewarding bad play, then I don't know what I could possibly say to make you understand. Only thing though, "sanctioned cheating" isn't cheating, because it's sanctioned.
So, somebody brings DS+Unbreakable and runs in to make insanely stupid plays right in front of your face. If it's easy to play around, tell me what you do in that situation to play around that.
I personally dislike certain perks, and it might affect my view of how I see a player, but that doesn't mean I'm going to act like they're not allowed or whatever. I just think it's dishonest to say that "it's players who are not particularly good at the game who complain about them." I know people don't like when people use streamers for examples, but honestly a lot of the higher profile streamers that I watch happen to actually kind of know how the game works, and it's unanimous among them how unfair some certain things are. They aren't "not particularly good," if you ask me.
I don't even want to make it about "this perk vs. this perk." I just think it's simply dishonest to try to frame things how you did.
2 -
What i'm hearing from some of you is that a survivor shouldn't run a survival or second chance build.
You guys are acting like you can use the perks anytime you want without any prerequisites.
0 -
It's turning biased because some of yall aren't making great points lol. An easy answer to your question is slug. "What if they have unbreakable???" You are still keeping pressure because you render them useless for the time they need to pick themselves up and then they can't use it again.
0 -
This content has been removed.
-
You aren't keeping pressure. You're losing pressure because you spend the whole time chasing them only to down them and have them get up again in less than half a minute. They don't even have to lose Unbreakable if anybody on their team comes to save them. Including somebody they may be on comms with, which pretty much guarantees they can save their free self-pickup. Tell me how that's "keeping" pressure instead of "losing" it.
And no, your first paragraph didn't become biased because of other people. It turned biased when you typed it up that way. As far as I can tell, you haven't done any edit to it, so it is in its original form. Remind me please how that is the fault of other people not "making great points"?
Anyway, your easy answer isn't all that great. If I did that every game I'd be walking away with no kills very often. That's if you could even know for sure somebody has either Unbreakable or DS. Let alone both.
1 -
Goddamnit karen
0 -
I guess some people don't known the difference between a thread and an excerpt Or what is biased and what not.
0 -
You clearly don't understand how to keep pressure that well karen. Oh THe TeAMmatEs aRe BeiNg HelPFul To ONe oF theIr tEamATes and NoT doiNG ThE objECtivE. YEah No PrESsure aT alL
0 -
lol man just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's biased.
0 -
Second chance perks are fine (for the most part). The problem is when they stack all second chance perks together for some really frustrating situations. Im not going to go into noed, thats another discussion on its own, but Dead Hard, Desicive Strike, Unbreakable, Adrenaline on four survivors is really frustrating. If you haven't played against a full SWF with this setup you might not understand why people complain about second chance perks. Lets think up of a scenario, imagine this match I am playing in:
Lets say I play killer. Runs around and find a Jake, swing and hit he is injured. He runs to the next pallet, looping it for a bit, makes a bad mistake that should be punished. Oh he has Dead Hard and makes distance to the pallet and drops it. I finally catch him and hook him. He gets saved and sits himself on a gen with another person. Now I manage to catch them off guard so I slug Jake, while Meg is running off. Generators pop in the distance. I have to eat a stun, let Jake escape my grasp and loosing all pressure I got or leave him letting him pick himself up. Now I run after Meg, Jake picks himself up from the floor. Same chase happens with Meg, loop, hit her once, loop, Dead Hard into a pallet. Another 2 gens pop in the distance. Hook meg, chase someone else. Meg gets saved, decides to sit on a gen. I come back and only see her. Generator is half way done. She jumps into a locker and I spot a Dwight at a jungle gym nearby the generator. What am I supposed to do? If I chase Dwight, she can keep working on the gen, if I open the locker, same story, eat the DS and she jumps off my shoulder. Lets say I pick her out of the locker, gets stunned, she runs away. I somehow manage to catch up to her, Dead Hard into a pallet. I mind game the pallet somehow, she goes down. I leave her slugged to force the Dwight off the generator. I injure Dwight. Looping on to the next jungle gym, I see Dwight makes a mistake and I swing and miss because of Dead Hard. Now Meg picks herself up, Jake and the Blendette I haven't even seen the whole match pops the last generator after Meg is up, Adrenaline proceeds to heal everyone back to full health and sprints away in my face.
Now most rank 1 matches aren't like this, you need to split map pressure and let people go if they run you for more than 15 seconds, but the point is having 4 different second chance perks rob you of all pressure you got in the span of a couple of seconds is frustrating beyond words. If you played killer and had a match like this you would understand why people complain about second chance perks.
1 -
As I said, reeks of bias. Anybody who makes a point you dislike is automatically a "karen." You're one of those people that likes to toss around terms without actually knowing what they mean...
I literally have no idea what you mean by "Oh THe TeAMmatEs aRe BeiNg HelPFul To ONe oF theIr tEamATes and NoT doiNG ThE objECtivE. YEah No PrESsure aT alL" It seems like all you can do is try to hyperbolize what I'm actually saying instead of making an actual counterpoint. You either have no idea what you're saying and don't understand my point, or you're just being extremely disingenuous with your post.
Either way, I don't feel like I should take you seriously. If I'm being honest, you're acting more like a "karen" than anybody else lmao. You're blaming your flaw of being biased on other people, and then namecalling like a child when you get called out.
Please though, record a video of your legendary "slug somebody with DS/Unbreakable" strategy to show me how supreme you are. I'm obviously just some karen who has no idea what I'm saying, because it's not like I made an actual valid argument. I totally didn't make an actual argument, to which you totally didn't just act like a child and not address the point.
Either get real and grow up or don't tag me with another reply, kid.
0 -
I actually have but i'm trying to keep swf out of the discussion just because how stupidley op that is
0 -
but yes you are very correct
0 -
man you aren't worth the time. You wouldn't understand.
0 -
Like I said, get real and grow up or stop replying. You obviously aren't choosing to get real or grow up, so do us both a favor and stop replying. We both know you have no intention of making an actual argument, and you just want to stir ######### up.
And ironic that you would tell me I "wouldn't understand" something, when you have 0 idea what the definition of bias is apparently. Then again, you have 0 idea what being a karen even is, so it honestly doesn't surprise me.
0 -
we really just need to make things such as DS less abusable and I'd be happy. it's meant to be an anti-tunnel, but to counter tunneling it threw the baby out with the bathwater by countering killers in general.
one of my main issues with DS is that they can do whatever they want with little drawback for 60 seconds. plus, I could hook another survivor (or even two, I've had that happen to me before) and still get hit with DS. all it needs is to be based more on actually countering tunneling, rather than just giving 60 seconds of free time.
BT I feel has one issue: it allows dumb saves to be viable. if they unhook before I get the chance to run away, they still get the reward. just make it so the killer has had to be nearby for at least 3-5 seconds before it can activate.
Unbreakable is fine, it's just the stupidly broken synergy with DS, because then there is no counter regardless of what you do.
NOED I'm fine with (hint hint, my PFP) and all we need is a totem counter either basekit or on something like small game.
I never see adrenaline as a problem (but to be fair I run NOED so it kinda counteracts it) but my main gripe is that you don't need to necessarily do anything. I'd just add that it only works if you completed the equivalent of at least 1 full gen that match.
essentially, the main issue is that most perks should be based of rewarding good performance or giving you a tool to help with weaker areas that you still have to utilize skillfully, not covering a weakness up (and then some) for free. I've got some examples.
NOED: rewards keeping at least one dull totem, or you could say it provides a tool for people who struggle with taking out survivors before all gens are completed, but doesn't outright hand them kills.
Saboteur: provides a tool for those struggling to keep their teammates alive that must be utilized skillfully in order to derive benefit.
Spine Chill: provides a tool for those who struggle against killers sneaking up on them that still must be utilized skillfully (you have to decide whether to run once you see it light up, or if you should stay for a bit
Blood Warden: rewards you for getting a last minute hook by blocking the gates.
need I say more?
0 -
I think ds needs a rework for sure. It is really abusable against the less experienced players. But not to mention it's practically used all over the ranks. As much as I love endgame builds I can never get them to work anymore lmao.
0 -
2nd Chance perks get a lot of heat because for the opposing side it can feel so undeserved. Like survivors making a bad save, someone gets slugged, you chase the unhooked, the slug gets up with unbreakable and the guy you´re chasing has stacked DS/UB so u can not do anything meaningful against them. They played poorly yet the Killer is put in a bad spot.
Similar things could be said about noed though. I only really think 2nd chance perks become problematic when stacked. As of now, nothing prevents people to stack DS/UB/DH/X on every survivor, every match.
Don´t get me wrong people are free to use anything within the games rules as they see fit, but man can it feel frustrating at times.
0 -
Yeah man I feel ya. I tried switching to killer but I get at least two people running that build in almost every game
0 -
Killer is frustrating man espicially if you are new to killer
0 -
Cause either they play against them "all the time" or see other use them in not so kind ways
DS locker "tech"
Running to the killer with DS active or BT
Good survivors can utilize the perks they use which is good for them and some players can see that... While other player find it frustrating due to trying not to play in not so kind ways (don't get me wrong killers kill and survivors survive) but when the odds are stacked against one side or the other "it's stupid and boring to play"
Changing it on the other hand won't be as simple as it may seem......
0 -
It's because they can be stacked. And when you stack them on up to four survivors, it becomes a slog. Considering how fast matches go, it adds an incredible amount of pressure.
Then you have SWF that further escalate the issue.
When it comes to NOED, it really is the killers only second chance perk. Do bones, you negate it. There are four survivors, five totems. I've had survivor teams simply run by totems to do a gen, then complain when NOED activates. I wouldn't mind having the perk tweaked, or adding a totem counter of some kind, but again, it's not hard to negate.
Yes, there are counters to survivor second chance perks, but there are four survivors, again. You're having to work around multiple second chance perks, around multiple survivors.
0
