Survivor meta kinda stale?
Almost every single high level game it’s always DS, Unbreakable, some exhaustion perk (usually dead hard) and then a perk of your choice.
I think it’s an issue that stems from DS being sort of being both a little too powerful and unreplaceable. The game does nothing to discourage tunneling without the use of perks, and because tunneling is so powerful for killer survivors are kinda forced into using DS.
I feel like the only way to ‘fix’ DS is to make some sort of anti-tunneling measure base kit (not sure what this would be) and then take DS in some other direction.
Buffing a lot of the crap perks would also go along way, as some are just kinda useless.
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The game of run around the pallet loop isn't exactly fun from a killer perspective. It's less fun when it's a god loop or your playing one of the not so amazing killers.
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You pretty much nailed everything, one of the biggest problems Survivors have with perks is most of them are very bad or too situational.
The last meta perk Survivors got is Dead Hard from Chapter 5 and we are at Chapter 17, sure there were some decent perks like Inner Strength or Deliverance but they are not good enough to displace the meta perks.
Tunneling being a massive advantage for the Killer makes DS very powerful which in turn makes slugging more prevalent which in turns makes Unbreakable also very powerful, its a vicious circle.
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Every perk seems bad in comparison to perks that give basically what amounts to hookstates. Survivorperks are ridiculously OP considering there's 16 of them total in a team vs the 4 killerperks. I mean what comes close to DS? Haunted Grounds? NOED? an Unfound Devour Hope?
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We are discussing why Survivor meta is stale and how it could be changed, please dont bring the usual "KILLER VS SURVIVORS" argument, we are not discussing Killers in this thread.
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If the devs did a HUGE perks buff/changes you would probably see less DS/UB due to perk variety, maybe. Idk
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I know, my pebble is so meta that is scary.
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I agree that the Survivor Meta is very stale, but at the same time the meta isn’t required to win.
If you’re goal is to win every game then I guess you are stuck with the meta perks, but a lot of non meta perks are at least viable, and even some of the ones that are borderline useless (Autodidact) can be fun.
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Yes. I've posted recently about this. I've nothing to add by now.. https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/183671/the-new-perks-evidence-the-problem-with-second-chance-perks#latest
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We need patches inbetween chapter & mid-chapter releases solely dedicated to balance. Something like the League of Legends patch schedule would be nice. They have big releases 2-3 months apart and every 2 weeks there is usually a new balance patch.
It takes quite a lot of work on the balance team to keep the game updated, but it is well worth the effort.
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This is a killer vs survivor game. I dont see how it's possible to discuss one side without considering the other.
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The issue is tunneling and slugging, ime tunneling is guaranteed every match, slugging not as much but also not a distant second place problem and camping to a lesser extent. I am tired of running DS but it is sadly needed. I try various builds to change it up, found a really fun one so far but the issue is when Hooked and the experience thereafter without DS is painful. The trend I am seeing is The Killer actively returning to the Hook. Never had this before recent so it looks like BT is back on the menu for me, another boring Perk I don't want to bring.
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This also is in part the fault of survivors not wanting to wait like 3 more seconds for the killer to walk away.
Even if the killer has BBQ, they hook, see a survivor working a gen halfway across the map, start walking away, and they hear the survivor get unhooked. They now know that they can walk halfway across the map to try and get this person working a gen, or they can turn around, knowing there are at least 2 survivors right behind them, giving them a much faster chase, and preventing them from healing.
Not saying all tunneling behavior is survivors fault because there are just killers who like to camp, but it is a factor that plays into it.
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So how do you want perks that are better than what survivors already have? Because nothing beats having second chances.
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If camping and tunnelling weren't so relied upon, then survivors would actually be free to experiment with different builds.
If survivors didn't also exploit the use of these perks, then some killers might not try to play particular killera or playstyles.
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The person you quoted wasn't saying discussion about the killers vs survivors was bad; they were saying whataboutism is bad. Whataboutism doesn't yield productive results within a discussion.
Anyways, DS is the only real counter to tunneling (despite the devs saying it isn't anti-tunneling). So to counter DS, killers slug. Which then means survivors bring unbreakable to counter being slugged. The next prevailing killer behavior (whether or not it's fun or unfun for the survivors) will yield the next meta perk.
The only real way to get survivors to stop running the meta perks is if BHVR some how hard punishes the killer behaviors that the perks are being used against. Only then can you nerf the perks to encourage more perk diversity.
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DS is the sole reason that tunneling is not as rampant as it already is now.
There are some killers who have a self sense of honor about not tunneling off the hook - but the majority, yeah they would do it way more if the threat of DS was not in the picture.
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I think it's less of an issue with DS specifically. And more that DS is an obvious symptom of a larger problem overall.
We have a handful of strong perks on either side and of you assume most people want to win, and winning to them is a 4k or an escape, they'll use the most effective means at their disposal to achieve that goal.
Instead of -just- reworking high tier meta perks, I'd like to see BHVR intentionally break their meta for a couple days or a week every month.
Like, give us a mini-bloodrush (1.25-1.6x-ish) for a weekend or a week, and just BREAK a couple different perks each time. Then revert them when the events over.
We'd all get to experiment, get some extra BPs, and maybe some changes will be awesome and stay. And if the changes suck, it was only for a week.
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I try not to tunnel; but if we meet again after you escape and you're still vulnerable? Yeah, I'll bop ya one.
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Tunneling is not powerful, tunneling makes you lose a ton of time and map pressure.
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If survivor want a new meta the dev need to make weekly buff and nerf but its almost impossible for them to do that they think the game is perfectly balance
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The biggest shakeup happened when Ruin, a killer perk, got changed. Suddenly everyone and their dog was running UB because killers were forced to slug for map pressure.
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With everyone running Decisive Strike, Dead Hard & Unbreakable (the other two I see a lot are Adrenaline & Borrowed Time), I'm actually surprised that I haven't been running into a lot more Mori offerings than I have.
At the end of the day, it is a video game & games are meant to be fun. I suspect, outside of doing a daily, I don't see a lot of people bring in a Mori because it's just not that fun. Of course, "fun" is subjective. To some people, running the "meta build" isn't fun either but here we are.
I actually think slugging is a really big issue. And it definitely stems from Decisive Strike existing. But there's nothing less fun in DBD than laying on the ground & not being able to play. And you can't leave the game anymore either or you're penalized.
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Because Survivors dont have that many good Perks and they also dont get good Perks (at least not meta-worthy). Despite some people claiming that at least 1 Survivor Perk per Chapter is going to be OP, you dont see them that often. Different for Killers, because some Perks synergize well with Killer Powers, while they are useless for other Killers. But since Survivors are only Skins...
There was even less variety when they nerfed Balanced Landing, one less Perk which makes sense to use, sure it boils down to the same Build at some point.
And IMO, the only Perks which make sense for Survivor are either Second-Chance Perks (because thank you Killer Playstyles) or Perks which speed up the Objective(s) (including stuff like healing). Maybe Stealth, but eh.
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I do wish we had a "kick" mechanic to decline getting rescued when it is less than optimal to do so. Unfortunately until we do, we are at the mercy of potatoes that unhook you within microseconds of getting hooked without BT lol With that said, some killers have hook fever and HAVE to return or go out of their way to return. I ran into The Nightmare last night, he aggressively teleport back to the nearest gen after every unhook to relentlessly tunnel.
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Absolutely correct. Ever go into a match without an Obsession? I sometimes try this with friends and it is a disaster. Free reign to tunnel and insta-rehook people left and right. Not fun at all. At least with one DS, The Killer is often reluctant to grab people that quickly off the ground.
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Oh great, so a perk wins you the game and that's totally fine and dandy. Where's the killer equivalent to this? NOED? Devour Hope?
Perks that give extra-hookstates should be brutally hard to activate and highly situational and limited to a one-time effect per GAME similar to haunted grounds with EASY and reasonable counterplay similar to make your choice. Yet here we are with DS's counterplay STILL being worth a perk on it's own (60 seconds of not getting picked up after a down would be strong in itself even with no stun) and Borrowed Time which honestly should only work against basement hooks.but then be buffed against stealthkillers and by helping the rescuer too.
I'd rather have them rework base gameplay issues through other means than dumb perks that end up being the meta forever since they refuse to fix ######### like camping while there's no other survivors around etc.
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The games meta is stale
Surviviors: second chance perks
Killers: freddy, spirit, and billy
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Which perk wins you the game exactly? You mean a five second stun that most Killers circumvent anyway? lol You don't wanna talk about equivalent perks because if Survivors had Killer perks, they would be very powerful. Things like reversing hook progress for merely completing a gen? It would be fun to think of some tho.
And what gives an extra hook state? At best DS prolongs the chase because it certainly doesn't give you an extra hook state let alone assure a getaway. Even with that five second stun, it is still extremely easy to continue tunneling thereafter. Which most killers do with great success! I otherwise agree with you, the game needs some base changes and imo a stronger in-game determent to tunneling so DS wouldn't be needed. Tunneling is currently too effective, powerful and easy (especially against people that go down fast) that it will continue to be the go-to for many if not most or more.
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I really agree with this. DS just feels like a must because of killers that tunnel. If camping and tunneling was somehow nerfed, perks like DS and Borrowed Time would feel less needed.
And there are many perks that really need some buffing as well. I wouldn't mind if meta perks got nerfed just a tiny bit, but I think it's more important to also buff more of the weak perks.
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The problem is that these meta perks prevent the game from being unfun. The base game is supposed to be always fun, and perks are supposed to spice things up and give you lots of different playstyles. That's not how it is, though - if you don't run the survivor meta, chances are the killer is going to tunnel and proxy camp you and if you don't run the killer meta, the survivors will do gens in no time. If both of these things weren't an issue, then players wouldn't run the meta so much.
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Killers run the same meta perks, but somehow that's fine and only an issue if survivors do it.
Almost with every dlc, killers get at least one perk that will be meta on certain killers. Survivors get extremely crap perks most of the time, so this doesn't help either.
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Petititon for after 30 seconds in chase this music plays.
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Let's be realistic, against a decent team tunneling 1 survivor early game to try to take it out of the game it's a bad strategy. Because they'll really know how to loop and you'll just waste time, allowing 3 people do spread.
Of course taking out 1 survivor early is strong and I try to do it, but I don't get it tunneling. I get it switching targets as fast as possible, and getting to the survivor I know it's close to die when the DS timer is probably off. Because if I just tunnel 1 person, usually, it's worse for you as the killer than better.
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Meh, I run Iron Will, Blood Pact, An Exhaustion Perk and the last perk can be literally anything depending on my mood (it tends to be WGLF tho).
Rank 2 btw.
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The survivors "meta" is stale due to killers relying on the only ways to get kill (and even though it isn't "fun") tunneling, slugging and camping
Mindgaming pallets will only do so much as you are the only survivor being chased
The only way to fix this issue is to fix maps and (spawn points for survivors) and either gen speed (which isn't much of an issue) or the number of gen needed to be completed
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A survivor working on a gen is nothing being tumbled.
A survivor bodyblocking is not being tunneled.
A survivor hook diving seconds after you hook someone is not being tunneled.
A survivor picked on the ground right after someone else has been hooked is not being tunneled.
Yet, th se are the most prevalent cases in which high rank killers get DSed. Low to mid rank killers do indeed tunnel like crazy, and DS work properly is those scenarios.
The problem is at red ranks, where killers intentionally avoid the fresh unhooked survivor (aware of BT DS), and get DS 40 sec later, after hooking a complete different person. Or cause the DS active survivor decide to tunnel a gen right in front of the Killer's face.
Add x4 this bullshit with 12 more second chances and you're gold.
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Wow, I'm not even gonna discuss with you, you seem to lack gameknowledge. "it's just a 5 second stun". No, it's an entire hookstate, without that 5 second stun you'd be on the hook, how is it hard to understand for survivors? Oh wait, because most of the ppl playing dbd are casuals who never gamed competitively before.
Pop goes the weasel takes 20 seconds of a gen, that's almost nothing when you think about the fact that a killer takes around 5-10seconds most of the time to do that action in the first place unless the gen is right on his way. A killer's time is WAY more precious than survivortime unless there's already dead survivors, 10 seconds of kicking a gen for 20 seconds regression is 30 seconds of 3 other survivors doing what they want. This being one of the best perks in the killer-meta says a ton about killerperks being underperforming when they should be far more powerful than individual survivor perks.
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That's exactly what it is, read the description. It extends the chase at best, depending on your other perks or allies you may get away and avoid getting tunneled AND thus avoid getting re-hooked so quickly. However contrary to your misunderstanding, it is not a free hook state. The perk frees you from The Killer's grasp when he picks you up within 60 seconds of being rescued, assuming you succeed the difficult Skill Check. You also become the Obsession and the perk deactivates for the remainder of the Trial. No point in discussing if you want to invent your own description of the perk. Adios.
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Survivors will never have new strong meta builds until DS and BT become base kit. Then killer should be buffed to compensate. DS and BT are in every game, it might as well be base kit at this point. It's fairly obvious that the developers do not want survivor to become any stronger from the fact that they have not introduced any stronger perks for survivors in a long time, so this is the only way I see to shake up the survivor meta.
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Second chance perks are just too good to not be used. Its a situation BHVR themselves have put themselves in and now they have the problem that they cannot do anything about it, as the survivors would get loud. BHVR doesn't like it when survivors get loud, as they're the main revenue source. They must remain happy and content.
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BHVR needs to fix camping and tunneling by making DS/BT actual anti-tunnel/camp PASSIVE abilities that every survivor has but in ofc a much more situational and weaker fashion and ofc that would require significant buffs to killer (for example seing survivorperks pregame)
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Always has been. It's all about getting more second chances.
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Please keep this thread civil and not make this personal, thank you.
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Just use non meta perks ez. It's way more fun making a piece of trash perk work than do the same thing every game with DS and unbreakable and have neither go off for a million games.
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