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Rework Exhaustion Add-ons
Before I start, I just want to say that I'm fine with how Exhaustion functions currently. For those of you who are newer to the game, a long time ago, Exhaustion could recover while you're running. Because of this, it allowed the perk combo Spring Burst + Vigil to be the meta that almost everyone ran because of how good it was. It basically gave you a Sprint Burst every 32 seconds.
Because of how powerful survivor Exhaustion perks were, some add-ons had to compensate for this. The only two killers with Exhaustion add-ons at the time were Clown and Huntress. The Huntress has her Venomous Concoction, which causes Exhaustion for 90 seconds if a Survivor gets hit by a hatchet, and the Clown has his Solvent Jug, which causes Exhaustion for 30 seconds if a survivor runs into the gas.
At the time, these add-ons were fine. The Huntress's hatchets require precision, so she should get rewarded if she does hit a survivor. The add-on basically denied Dead Hard, but survivors could still pull a Lithe, Balanced Landing, or Sprint Burst before they got hit. And the Clown's gas is a lot easier to land, but it could potentially deny almost every Exhaustion perk except Sprint Burst, if the survivors don't avoid the gas. But the add-ons weren't overbearing. In 30 seconds, you could have you Exhaustion perk up again against a Clown, 25 if you were running Vigil. And the Huntress's requirement being to land a hatchet hit seems more than fair considering how hard they are to hit sometimes.
However, in 2.1.0, they changed Exhaustion so that you can't recover from it while you're running, but add-ons from Clown and Huntress weren't changed along with the Exhaustion nerf. 90 seconds now seems a bit excessive to put on a survivor, and 30 seconds of Exhaustion from something as easy to land as his gas is a lot. I personally think that these numbers should be reduced significantly to keep up with the current mechanics of Exhaustion.
For example, look at the Demogorgon's add-on "Lifeguard Whistle" . It causes Exhaustion for 5 seconds if someone touches one of the Demo's portals. During a chase, survivors probably won't run into a portal unless the Demo places them in common looping spots, but even then, Demo only has 6 portals it can place. The only feasible way to get some use out of that add-on, is if you sneak up on survivors while they're destroying a portal. Even then, all a survivor has to do to recover from the Exhaustion is just pallet stun the killer and then walk away while they break it.
Even though Demo's Exhaustion add-on is harder to get use out of than the Clown's Exhaustion add-on, its effect is significantly less than the Clown's add-on with 5 seconds versus 30 seconds, and it has a higher rarity, being a very rare add-on while the Clown's is an uncommon one.
Personally, I think the devs need to come back and rework the Exhaustion add-ons for Huntress and Clown mostly. The effect is ridiculously long and was created to combat a mechanic that got heavily nerfed. It would also be nice to see a buff for the Demo's Exhaustion add-on, although that may be asking for too much.
Comments
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Huntress I'm okay with since you still have to actually be able to hit them, Clown's is dumb though and is mindless, much like himself
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Exhaustion perks basically went from completely busted op to just normal busted.
Not only do Exhaustion addons not need to be changed but I'd even argue there should be more Exhaustion addons for other killers or the Exhaustion perks need further tuning down.
Current Exhaustion perks are literally a second chance every 40 seconds for zero cost, downside, requirement, nothing. There's literally no reason you wouldn't always run an Exhaustion perk if you're trying to win.
The devs said they want perks to have some variation of cost, skill requirement etc.
Your complaint is literally about the extremely rare couple killers in the entire game that happen to have some Exhaustion addons. That is the only tiny downside you may ever run into in running an Exhaustion perk and even that's quite rare. You want perks with zero negatives and are always game swingingly good...
Post edited by Blueberry on26 -
Yes! I would love to see more Exhaustion add-ons for the other killers. Add-ons that only add Hemorrhage are pretty ######### since nobody really pays attention to blood while they're chasing someone.
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They are outdated and created when you gained exhaustion back while running why d ok you think there are no more. Except demo his isnt that bad.
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I still think they could make Hemorrhage at least passably decent by baking Bloodhounds effect into it and then making the Bloodhound perk now show blood as aura reading in a small radius.
If decent Exhaustion addons were much more wide spread among killer addons I actually wouldn't have any issues with Exhaustion perks as then there would some risk/downside in running the Exhaustion perks because a killer could be running those addons. In turn it would also add risk in the killer running those addons because then less survivors could be running those perks and you waste an addon slot.
IE high risk/high reward like hex totems but for survivors.
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Sounds like poor baby is upset that he couldn't use his dead hard
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I'm not denying that they were made back when Exhaustion functioned differently.
What I'm saying is that they are still totally fine given how strong Exhaustion perks still are.
Demo's is complete trash.
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On the hemorrhage point I feel it would make the add ons that apply it actually have use, but I think that change would be a bit much as part of Sloppy Butcher.
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Killers should have more exhaustion add ons
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That's a good point. We would need to take Hemorrhage off SB. SB would still be totally solid.
All those useless Hemorrhage addons and perks would be decent finally.
On that note, Blindness could use some improvements as well.
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Of course Exhaustion Add Ons should be removed/reworked. As said, they were created when Exhaustion went down in a Chase. Especially Huntress is dumb with her Exhaustion Add On, 3000 BPs to negate Perks? Yeah, right... And the brown one is as good as the green one, since it does not matter at all if someone is exhausted for 30 seconds, 90 seconds or 10 minutes.
Just imagine the other way around - old Ruin with new Instructions (no Skill Checks) and old Toolboxes. Killers would riot, because Ruin would be negated.
But negating Exhaustion Perks is fine... eh.
I really hope they rework those Add Ons when Huntress gets her Add On Rework, and there is hope for that, since they removed Exhaustion from Doctor as well.
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You're burning half your add on slots to counter 4-5 perks, they should definitely be strong enough to counter them properly.
What's the worst that can happen? People lose one of their 4 second chances because they can't Dead Hard to get to another loop?
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I would say at least change the Clown addon so that you have to hit a direct bottle to apply the exhaustion effect and bump those kind of addons to green or purple rarity
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I get your point, but honestly, is the Clown, who's arguably one of the weakest killers in the entire games addons really an issue?
What's the absolute worst case scenario? One of the weakest killers in the game temporarily shuts off one of the survivors 4 second chance perks?
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Exhaustion perks are strong but they are still outdated. What's wrong with having strong perks with no downsides? Actually there is a downside the cooldown.
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Outdated implies they haven't kept up with the games power curve, of which I'd disagree. I'd even argue they are way ahead of the power curve.
Downside means it's hindering you in some way. The cooldown doesn't hinder you, it just prevents you from gaining an advantage with it too often. The cooldown is simply a limitation.
What's wrong with having strong perks with no downsides?
Because it goes against the devs design philosophy on perks. This isn't my interpretation here either, the devs literally said that perks should have downsides, requirements etc.
I'd actually personally be fine if all the game perks were strong with no downsides. My issue is that design philosophy isn't being applied equally across all perks and there's quite a double standard with many.
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well they were created before they reworked exhaustion. than they changed exhaustion and left them as they were. pretty basic bhvr if you ask me.
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No it's still a downside you can only use it once every 40 seconds. Downside doesnt necessarily have to mean hindrance to the user. They are not ahead of the power curve they were a way to keep old exhaustion in check.
New exhaustion while strong is no where near it is nowadays. Sure you could argue they are still strong but they aren balanced currently.
Bbq has no downsides and its free aura reading and bp.
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I think that's a stretch and even then, it's a very minimal "downside" for such a strong upside.
It's not giving you a reason not to run them, it's just putting a road block from completely abusing it.
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I think you got it backwards. They need to increase other killers add ons effects instead of nerfing. Demogorgon's exhaustion add on shouldn't be the bar that killer's add ons are set to.
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It doesn't matter whether he is super weak or strong.
Exhaustion is the second strongest status effect in the game.It should be harder to apply it than all the other status effects.
Also,not all survivors run with 4 second chance perks all the time.
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Just like bbq it isnt a downside it's doing your objective. The downside is there to stop abuse but exhaustion perks have been nerfed multiple times in the past from abusing them, they are in a stable state.
Those addons actually arent fair in a sense due to their easy proc especially clown. Then you have huntresses venomous concoction which definitely needs to be removed.
It honestly doesnt matter because they are most likely removing the add ons in huntresses add on pass and maybe clowns rework.
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What's wrong with them being easy to proc?
It's easy to proc the Exhaustion perks and those don't use up an addon. Should we add more skill requirement to all the Exhaustion perks as well as the addons?
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i mean, there isnt really anything to argue about is there? they were created before exhaustion got reworked to stop regenerating while running. than exhaustion got reworked and the addons stayed the same. so ofc the addons are outdated and need an update. but leave it to bhvr to leave something in the game like 90 secs exhaustion for huntress wich basically means never use an exhaustion perk at all.
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Let's just agree to disagree we arent getting anywhere. I respect your opinion but let's jsut see what the devs do.
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Add ons shouldn’t render perks useless. Period. Imagine if survivors had a blindness add on on keys that could stop the killer from seeing auras for 30 seconds if they hit that survivor. It’s totally stupid and people would be rightfully pissed off about it.
If exhaustion perks are too strong then they should all be re-balanced. Add ons to just remove the ability to use them for X seconds are horrible design and they penalise survivors for running certain perks, and put other killers who don’t have those add ons at a disadvantage.
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LOL very easy with dedicated servers. Tons of fake hits.
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I was talking about this with a friend the other day who was really frustrated by the 90 seconds. Maybe they should introduce a new status effect for survivors, let's call it Fatigued. Fatigue would be nearly identical to Exhausted with the one exception that you can recover while running.
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We need more Exhaustion add-ons. Demo’s needs a buff. Huntress and Clown’s are fine. Doctor needs his back.
The devs say that Doc’s Exhaustion add-ons (Obedience - “Carter’s Notes” and the Iridescent King version of it) were removed because it was just the least interesting of his afflictions. I’m sorry, but I just don’t believe that (at least as the main reason). I think that the devs saw an opportunity to remove an effect that hurt bad Survivors and they took it.
If that’s not the case, then why couldn’t they just leave it as an Iridescent King exclusive effect? It only activated at Madness tier 3, so the Survivor wouldn’t be Exhausted the entire game. It was so satisfying to see a Survivor make a mistake or start looking behind them only for their perk to not activate and go down. Unfortunately, those same Survivors are the ones who likely went online and complained how it was OP or “oppressive” and needed to be removed.
If you’re upset that you can’t make a mistake and then have something like Dead Hard or Lithe fix it for you, then you need to get good or stop trying to get clips for montages. It’s clear you’re relying too much on a perk. Also, who the hell cares about clips for montages? You aren’t getting paid for them lol. They definitely shouldn’t be anywhere near the main reason for a balance decision.
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People like to use Lifeguard whistle as some barometer on why Clown and Huntresses exhaustion add ons should be nerfed.
Nobody takes into account that Lifeguard whistle causes ANY already existing exhaustion timers to PAUSE while cleansing or near a portal. This is why it ONLY causes 5 seconds of exhaustion if NOT already exhausted.
Clown & Huntress don’t pause exhaustion timers with their add ons. That exhaustion can immediately recover any time the survivor stops running.
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Clown’s Solvent Jug is the strongest exhaustion add on for a reason. Dead Hard, Sprint Burst, Lithe (potentially BL), can “hurt” him like no other killer because of how they mitigate the very thing his power is meant to do: quickly get close to a survivor.
Without getting close quickly, he’s effectively neutered.
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Can I add in The Pig into this... cause I main pig and her Exhaustion addon is (Bad Word) useless
Why would I ever use that addon... I don't chase those whom have a trap on (unless I see an opportunity)
@Nicholas I am interested in the Fatigued status effect... Could you explain how you'd implement it?
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It would be a new status effect that only The Killer can afflict a Survivor with. I can't think off the top of my head if there any perks that make survivors exhausted? I know there are add-ons. And all survivor perks that are impacted by exhausted would also be affected by fatigued. The main distinction between the two is that exhausted doesn't recover while running but fatigued does. It's basically just a name so that it's clear which version of the status effect you suffer from. Otherwise they would have to create an additional icon to visually distinguish between a version of exhausted that you can recover while running and the existing version where you don't recover.
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Ok... cool
I'm going to think on how I'd do it and I'll get back here
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I think it could work as a difference in effects
Killers apply the Fatigue effect through perks and addons and the survivors get applied with the Exhausted effect through their perks
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That's what I said. The only difference between the two is that you can recover from Fatigued while running whereas while Exhausted you cannot recover while running. A lot of the complaints are that the add-ons exhaust you for too long so perhaps a new similar status effect could feel less oppressive to people. And it can open up a lot new opportunities for perks and add-ons.
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Ok
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If your against a clown you aren't ever pulling off your dead hard and you have lost a perk slot of one of the only fun active perks in the game. As stated, at the time his perk was made that 30 seconds would tick down in the chase but 30 seconds for hitting gas is outrageous. Not to mention dead hard isn't really a second chance perk anymore because of how bad it's become with killers hitting you through it, it has almost predominantly been a perk you use to make a bit more distance and loop longer, rarely to save your ass because you screw up
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I feel exhaustion perks are fine, the only one that should be reworked is Adrenaline. I hate that perk so damn much, it's so unfair to killers who only got one, maybe two kills and is in a chase with someone that is about to go down but then they'll be halfway across the map fully healed and nowhere where still chasing them is a viable option. I'd be fine with it not letting you get the sprint burt while exhausted but you still heal a health state. That would be super balanced because it would make survivors save their exhaustion when there's only one gen left.
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dont compare any addons to demos addons because they are all useless
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Most perks have downsides to them, yeah that is killer perks. Survivor not so much and exhaustion needs to have a downside as well.
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You cant use that logic with bhvr for tge only reason they dont have that kind of logic the most recent example i can give you is the enduring nerf. They nerf enduring only because DS was a 3 second stun so they buff DS and nerf enduring instead of just buffing DS
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I'm not gonna make a statement or anything but as a survivor main I often just dont run an exhaustion perk because there are other perks that are just more helpful than being in a chase for a few extra seconds.
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I do agree with you in a way. Adrenaline basically only helps if the survivors are already winning and the killer isn't doing well. It's actually very impractical for the survivor because it only helps at the end of the game, and if ur not in a chase or injured its it's useless. There are only some rare exceptions where it's a comeback for the survivor, such as the killer just closed the hatch and the gates are powered. Overall adrenaline should probably be changed.
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Exhaustion addons don't need a nerf or a change. They are fine.
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Enduring wasn’t nerfed, the way the stun reduction was calculated got changed. It actually saves you a bit more time now even though the values are lower. It not protecting you from perk stuns was a nerf though, granted.
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hemorrhage is great for someone like me who’s mains as Spirit. She’s blind when using her power and i solely rely on sounds and my surroundings when phasing, therefore hemorrhage, bloodhound, those work wonders for me!!
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I thought spirit couldn't see blood while phasing? I've never played as her tbf but playing against her none have ever really seemed to notice my blood pools
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The problem with exhaustion is similar to the problem with old ruin.
Against good survivors exhaustion is a minor annoyance, but easily worked through.
Against bad survivors who depend on exhaustion perks to carry their game, it is stupidly strong.
Ultimately I think exhaustion effects should be buffed and encourage better skill. Thats just me tho.
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Yeah like even if you ARE injured and ARE in a chase it's super unfair once that final gen pops for killer because it's a get out of jail free card and the killer can't counter it.
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