A Thought on Camping
I want to start by saying I don't have a problem with camping. I think that if the need drives the Killer, they should camp, tunnel, slug, or Mori. These are all special purpose tools in the Killer's toolbox. They are valid tactics and there is no point in shaming or giving a Killer grief over choosing to try them. Used incorrectly, they will cost the Killer dearly. Used correctly, they can make a game.
The issue is that the Killer and Survivors have mutually exclusive goals. Survivor Players don't want to stay on the hook, and quite a few of them say that the Killer should move off so they can be unhooked. This is unreasonable. More level-headed Survivor Players want the Killer to move off enough for there to at least be a chance of a safe rescue. Ok, this is not unreasonable in theory. So how do you accomplish this?
First, penalties will never work. Right now the Killer does lose some points for camping, more if face camping. But in the end, a bird in the hand, is worth two in the bush. You have to give the Killer a reason to depart the hook, something that furthers his/her goals and make leaving worthwhile. Here are some things that might be tempting:
- A base-kit barbecue & chili effect where the other Survivors greater than 32 meters away have their Auras revealed briefly. Killers that have a direction to go are more likely to risk leaving.
- Instead of a penalty for staying near, why not give Killers a bonus for moving away, i.e. the further they go, the greater the value. Think of this like the Bold Survivors get for staying within the Killer's terror radius. In this case, the Killer is being bold by moving away from the Hook, i.e. taking a risk. The logistics would have to be worked out, i.e. a maximum number of points that can be earned, and tied to time away.
- And what if summoning the Entity is paused while the Killer stays within a certain range, i.e. point blank (face camping) until either all the other Players are gone, or the hooked Player simply decided to make his/her three attempts to get off the hook, fails, and the auto-summons the Entity. This would mean face-camping would all but guarantee the rest of the team getting everything done, AND the Player unfortunately hooked can choose to leave whenever they like. *Likewise camping beyond point-blank might simply extend the timer, rather than just pausing it.
My personal preference would be a combination of one and two above. I personally think Barbecue & Chili should remain its own Perk. I put it in there as an alternative, since some weak version of things being base-kit has a precedent. But the combination of one and two above would reward Killers for moving off, while at the same time reward the overall team if they stay. More to the point, if the other Survivors finish everything out, they are more likely to come back for the hooked one as a group with all the advantages for save at the end. Giving that poor guy who had to sit on the hook the "option" to still make the attempts and sacrifice out ensures that nobody will be held hostage unless they want to remain for the good of their team.
Anyway, I'm just spit-balling ideas here. I don't actually think camping is that big an issue. Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes he eats you. I'm just saying that if you want to curb the behavior you have to give the Killer both an incentive for going, and cut into his/her reason for staying.
Comments
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3 was already tried in a few forms, all of which were abused by the survivors. Punishing the killers for being close to the hook will not work. The rest of your ideas might work, though.
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Something I've noticed very often and I'm sure other killers (and survivors with aura reading) have as well is that even when running BBQ and Chili - it's very common to get 0 aura readings at all against 3 unhooked survivors. Whether this be lockers because they are on death hook (or not some times) or because they're all crouching nearby hoping to rush the hook for their Altruism points or even competing for that WGLF stack (which even devs have acknowledged).
Very often, I have to intentionally just run towards gens that I "predict" to be getting worked on just on previous known locations and my most recent chase path to down that hooked survivor. Then some times I find none of the 3~4 gens were even worked on and return to the hook area to find 3 survivors huddled together after finishing their coop heal, trying to LOS me as best as possible.
Some "overly" altruistic behavior is definitely controlling killer behavior to an extent as well even if they aren't willing to admit it. Not every killer feels like staring at a wall and counting to 15 before returning to play Freeze Tag again considering that's not the playground agreement. Especially true for newer killers who have been losing lots of matches because of other shortcomings in their gameplay.
As for the original topic: 1 and 2 seem fine to incentivize the behavior while a direct mechanical one like 3 would require tweaking to not be abuseable in some way or another.
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Treat them like Pyramid head. If the killer stays too close to the hook for too long, the survivor gets teleported far away to another hook.
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This won't work for a couple of reasons.
- It is a punishment, not a reward. Punishments simply are not going to deter the Killer from doing what they think needs doing.
- This is just as likely to get the hooked Survivor killed as it is to help them. Consider the fact that all the Survivors have made a note of where that hook is while they work on other objectives, or move closer for the rescue. Let's say 1+ of them are in the immediate area getting ready to make their move with Borrowed Time or whatever else in combination. POOF! Suddenly the hooked Survivor is somewhere else and they are way out of position. The Killer will just make a bee line for the new position, while the Survivors must be more careful or get picked up along the way. The extra time resetting might well cost that hooked person a sacrifice.
- Rewards work better. Killers camp because they can do the math, and some reward is better than no reward. They have gone from a 2K to being Tea-bagged at the gate by the entire squad who unhooked the people they fought hard to down and put on the hook. You have to make it worth their while.
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I am still new enough that I didn't know a variation of three had already been tried. Yes, I'm sure that it could be worked by Survivors unless very carefully implemented. I'll have to give a bit more thought to how to logistically do it without setting off unintended consequences. I still think it COULD be done, but you are right... it would require a lot careful design safeguards.
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Camping tunneling and others ######### "strategies" are valid, but absolutely anti-fun. In an ideal game, and game is about fun, remember that, these behaviours shouldn't exist.
That said, if devs don't have tools to create a funnier game (or they don't want to), at least punish more who decide to make this game unfun. My idea, negative score events... for killers and survs, don't misunderstand me. For example, hit a surv just after unhook, -800 points, leave a surv on the ground more than 10 seconds, -X points based on how much time is on the ground, let a surv die on the ground, -1000 points, stay 24 meters from hook while not in chase, -X points based on how much time is near the hook... and more.
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With all due respect, I started this thread to talk about potential ideas on how adjustments to the game that might make it more likely Killer would camp less. I would consider it a personal favor if you didn't try to turn this thread into another (one of endless) discussion of "camping bad" and "not fun". There are plenty of those already, and you can even create one of your own. I'm not trying to be snarky, just pragmatic. If people truly want to see adjustments, then discussions have to be more substantive than that. Fair enough?
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Mother of god. So i can't share my ideas an opinion about how to mitigate camping because I said "camping bad"??? ein?? Did I understand well? this still being a forum????
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Certainly you can, but it is just considered a bit more polite to go with the flow of the thread. Your ideas are not, well, reasonable. They are so extreme they are just tantamount to screaming PUNISH THEM... CAMPING BAD... NOT FUN. :) I'm not trying to be rude. I'm asking you to engage in the spirit of THIS thread or join another more in tune with your desire, or start your own. I really want to discuss serious, reasonable adjustments. I am saying this in good faith, not taking pot shots at you.
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Just so you know how it went down, two survivors would sit just outside the radius of the killer forcing them to eithher leav and lose the unhook immediately or sit there and gaurantee that their one person went down allowing the 4th person to just run and clear the gens on the map.
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Heh, funny. Yeah, I'll think about it. For all the grief Killers get, Survivors (and I play one too) are down right obnoxious in abusing things outside the game. This is why we can't have nice adjustments. Give them an inch, and they take a mile. Still, I'll give it some thought on how to implement and find a way to address that exploit.
Post edited by Moundshroud on1 -
best way to handle it is do away with hooks make it when survivors get downed after 10 seconds of being downed( this is to still allow the use of Moris) they turn into a ghost and have to go to other survivors to recover from the spirit state, in spirit form they can only walk not run, make it in the spirit state they cant do anything to progress the game but survivors see the auras of spirits only when said spirit is within twenty meters of them. make it so you enter spirit state twice and third time you just die and your out of the game. this pushes the time burden onto the survivors freeing time for killers to pressure. it ends the need for perks like DS and unbreakable as the killer can't see the ghost and ghost can't see the killer and it also ends unfun things like slugging. could also add in the ability for the killer to see the aura of any survivor healing a spirit. this would also make it so ghost will want to run to the farthest survivor aura so they can recover safely. this is the one system Gold express did absolutely right. it resolve the need for perks like DS its not anti momentum and frees up more time for killers to pressure the map. and a much better system to actually balance the game play. no more need for what both sides consider toxic aspects of the game. the down side it would totally need a rework of most the perks in the game and items like flashlight would have zero purpose.
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I like the other suggestions tho btw.
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I started a smurf and I normally see the camping at ranks 20-8. That said there are obviously some in red ranks as well, just not normally.
Numbers one and two sound amazing, but I am pretty sure 3 was abused back in the day.
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Agreed. Also just a side note if you watch ohtofu on YouTube he’s given a LOT of insight on how trying to make the game “fun” is all around impossible. Make it fun for yourself everything will be alright it’s just a game.
now as for the discussion I really do think there needs to be some kind of penalty for killers and o really love your ideas because camping is annoying, but more importantly the strategy usually only ever lead to one or two kills for me it was never all. I play both survivor and killer. I main killer though and I found that camping was def NOT the best strategy if the killer cares about winning.
I do wanna point out as well that survivors can make your life a living hell too lmao. It’s just a win-lose situation I’ve seen with any changes the developers could possibly have because then it could give survivors too much power still to abuse. I always believe my games are ggs all around, but I love your ideas, got any more?
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Tbh I don't mind camping either, I mainly get mad at survivors who don't try to go for a save or trade.
Also when they get hit and then run the other direction to still fall.
I like #2's idea but wouldn't Demo be able to counter this via portals?
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I dont get it. Point 2 talks about not to punish the killer but reward them. But point 3 talks about punishing the killer by stopping the entity for camping.
U cannot stop camping in this game. The current state is good as it gets. Everyone been thinking about the issue of camping for years.
And blocking the entity timer is basically camaderie. Which needs a buff from 36 sec to 45 at least. To get this for free sucks for the killer.
Almost no one ever uses camaderie in its current form.
Also by taking away camping abilities, ur opening up killers to be bullied by toxic survivors.
U know how ppl hate campers? Well that feeling is similar feeling the killer gets when being harrassed by 4 salty survivors. Teabag, exit gate camping, hatch camping, hook camping, flashlight, infinite loops, 360,180, DS, SG, BT, u mine as well nerf survivor campers.
U really have to get rid of toxic survivors to get rid of camping killers. It will never happen.
U have to teach survivors that killers cannot be blamed. Survivors are the aggressors. Killer is just there for fun. Without a killer, there is no dead by daylight.
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Just to add to my previous point. U can actually get rid of campers entirely.
Devs need to implement bots for killers. Killers who are programmed not to camp. Give survivors the option to play against bots instead of actual humans. Can also be a single player mode.
But the problem is... Who the he'll wants to play against bots? I'll take a camping Bubba over a stupid bot.
My point is, survivors have a entitlement mentality. They want to get beat but just to a point where everyone can escape and do a final teabag at the gate, leave, than sens the killer a troll message.
This is the beauty of dead by daylight. Its to troll. And this is why camping will never disappear.
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Okay, so I have several issues with your statement. Your Ideas are all well and good, no complaints, but slugging and camping only benefit the killer. Several times I have depipped in purple and red ranks because of slugging. The survivor on the ground receives nothing for sitting there and bleeding out, especially if the killer is proxy camping and chasing away any chance of you being revived. If you say BBQ should be base kit, then unbreakable would be the single perk that could combat the horrid existence of slugging, so it would also have to be base kit for all survivor.
In the end, no changes are going to be made. You will still have survivor mains calling camping and slugging killers toxic and you will still have killers who will face camp, proxy camp, and slug.
Side note: Being a jerk is a choice, not a game mechanic, If you are consistently refusing to allow others to play the game in favor of total domination, you are actually toxic.
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Ok, first of all I'm still a noob here 😋 I only started playing about 2 months ago and so far I've been playing both sides but neither at a really high level, I'm still working on the mechanics of how everything works and experimenting with different builds.
Now, considering my short experience in-game, and the somehow unexpected irl-rivalry between Killer and Survivor mains -that I had no idea existed before I started reading forums in general- I was thinking about that second point you wrote. What about instead of penalizing the killer with X number of bloodpoints we had that same amount and "transferred" it from Killer to Survivor? Lets say a random (but tapped) number like 1,000 BP, the longer the Killer camps a Survivor not only the less BP he'll be getting but the more chances the Survivor earns 1,000 BP by doing literally nothing. This way, it wouldn't be just doing the math to reach a +1 or +2 PiPs, you would have to take into account that the longer you do this the more the Survivor benefits from it (and I'm sure the "I won't win but you won't either" scenarios when the Killer camps to secure a kill will need to change).
What I'm thinking now is that camping would be defined by the Killer standing inside a certain radius around the hook AFTER a couple of seconds since he hooked the Survivor AND AS LONG AS he's not actively chasing someone. If he's in the middle of a chase with another Survivor then he's not just standing, thus this feature wouldn't be active.
It maybe sounds like it's a one-sided solution but I think camping is something that only Killers can solve. What noctis129 mentioned above about survivors at the exit gate should be addressed aswell possibly in a similar manner (standing there would mean less points to you and more points to the Killer as he's "preventing" you from leaving), and again, in that case it's something only Survivors can solve.
Anyways, I know this has been discussed many times before and I'm not here saying this could be a good idea at all (I'm not even sure if it's at least original lol) but I read your post and you got me thinking there and just wanted to share my 2 cents. I hope it's understandable enough and excuse my grammar if I messed up, English is not my first language.
😀
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My only main problem is camping, it just gets annoying, like I'm being punished for being good at the game just because you got mad that I juked you, and ran you through enough loops to last the whole game and you made the mistake of committing to chasing me.
Edit: Especially when you aren't camping for for any bait, you are just salty and make the game less fun for me because in the end, I died because you were salty and tunneled me.
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I kind of like the reward idea -- like maybe you get extra BP if an unhook happens far away from you. But I think different players have different motivations for what they do, and getting bloodpoints doesn't account for all of them.
We pretty much all agree that there are specific situations where it makes sense to camp, but if we're trying to discourage the habitual campers, or the players who camp as their main strategy and first resort, I think we also have to consider the reasons they camp that don't have anything to do with points. One reason would be that it's an easy way to get kills (and some players are more motivated by getting kills than BP), and another would be that it makes the people they camp feel bad (and some players are motivated by sadism more than BP).
In the second case, where the motivation is just bullying people, there's no amount of reward that will convince them to change.
In the first case, where the motivation is getting kills, you could try to make camping a less effective way to get kills (by switching to a cage system, as some people have suggested, or by having survivors play less altruistically and focus on getting the gens done while the killer camps) or you could try to buff the killers to make it easier for players to get kills without camping, but I'm not sure there's a threshold of bloodpoints you can give someone that will make them feel okay about a zero-kill game if, to them, that means they lost.
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But u deserve to die.
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Think in favor of the killer. What u are saying is just a survivor entitlement mentality.
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How so?
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Or Give the killers a huge slowdown movemnt for camping and if they miss a hit their cooldown is doubled.
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I deserve to die because I'm good at the game?
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Sure. All the survivors deserve to die. If u don't want to die, play another game like 'flower'. It's peaceful, no death, no trolling, probably the perfect game for u. U should Google it.
If ur looping the killer, either the killer will let u live, or make sure u die. I'll probably mori u for being annoying. Why do u get to be annoying and not the killer? Hypocritical.
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A very intelligent addition to this ongoing discourse. I really wish more players would look for more alternatives than shaming. It fixes nothing and make people not want to play.
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Yeah, no one would play killer. lol
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I originally wanted to make a thread about killer shaming and better alternatives, but this definitely covered the bases I had in mind about camping
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