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Is using a mori against a key justified?
I just had a lobby with a 2man SWF who brought a map(hatch addons)+skeleton key. I didn’t really feel like going against that so I threw an ebony on and mori’d the two gamers who brought the items. I triple hooked the other two because they were just playing the game normally, nothing stupid. In post game the duo flamed me and called me toxic for bringing a mori. So, I pose this question; is it unfair for one side to bring an OP thing but completely okay for the other side to? A lot of people compare moris to keys so I felt like I was perfectly justified in doing this.
Comments
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I don’t really every bring moris, due to the fact they are easily the most overpowered item in the game, but I’ve started bringing them for keys on occasion because it feels like I see a key 1/3 games now. It’s definitely justified IMO, nothing else bar a few like iri head, compound 33 on blight or topknot on oni is really sufficient
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If survivors are going all out with a key + map you have no reason to hold back at all.
Also if they complain about you going all out when they are going all out then they are hypocrites whose opinions should be ignored.
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Yes. It is justified to fight BS with BS.
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Anyone lacking perspective so much that they think keys are fine to bring but attack mori's is not someone you ever need to engage with. They don't care about you or anyone else. It's all about them.
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I usually bring an ivory Mori and try to tunnel map guy early... also it is much more satisfying to also bring franklin's demise and try to hit them mid pallet vault or get a hit during a pallet drop. If you leave the pallet unbroken the item is not reachable. I still bring an ivory because using franklin's effectively in time is lucky.
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Who cares? You don't need a justification for using a mori.
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Yes. Both allow you to skip a Part of the game. Even though both things aren't what I would call balanced for the game.
Just had a blendette with a key + coldwind offering. Guess who complained about the mori?
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I hate that keys are required for some challenges, just like how I hate how moris are required for some dailies. Everyone knows that both sides hate both, and everyone knows that one tends to be met with the other. Can we not be forced to make this issue even worse than it needs to be?
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Yes.
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Moris definitely outclass keys. Moris allow you to just hook one survivor which takes such little effort to do and then tunnel him when he or she gets off the hook. That’s absurd and quite honestly in my opinion ruins the game. There is nothing wrong with keys and that’s because 1) you can’t always depend on your teammates to do 5 generators. So an alternate method of escaping is absolutely necessary. The hatch doesn’t open right away when you’re last alive giving the killer plenty of time to hook the last guy and march right over to it and stomp on it in your face. Killers are already insanely OP
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with a key you can do literally nothing the entire game and still escape with less than 6k points. you can't be handed a more free "win" than that, even with a mori you need to at least hook each survivor one time.
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TBH I think the bigger way to look at it is this: Keys prevent killers from being able to secure their full victory, moris prevent survivors from being able to attempt to earn their victory. Both are awful, in different, yet equally bad ways.
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They don’t need moris. The yellow one is acceptable because it is purely aesthetic. Something you can do for the heck of it. Jesus Christ it’s an OFFERING slot! It shouldn’t have a big impact on the outcome of the game. Killers are granted speed, abilities and add ons. They need Mori too? If you think Mori’s compare to keys you’re out of your mind. Keys are way more necessary than Mori’s. Keys require survivors to do more work than Mori’s to use them. A lot of games either franklins takes care of the key or the survivor simply never got to use that 7,000 bloodpoints investment. Oh but killers get practically guaranteed use? Pathetic man.
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Moving from locker to locker as a blendette is considerably less work to be able to use a key than hitting each survivor twice, hooking them, and then hitting them again another 1-2 times after they get unhooked. Keys can even open the hatch after the killer beats you to it, while they're off patrolling exit gates that are on opposite sides of the map.
Again, both are bad, but you're a fool if you think keys "require more work" than moris.
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I think it's justified when you see a key, if they want to bring a broken item then why can't you? My friend has they saying that he's not going to get pissed if I do something to him that he would've done to me.
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Hooking a survivor is so damn easy though. If you can’t down a survivor, hook him and then tunnel him into another down then Mori You might need more training at being killer. I easily 3-4K every single game because it’s so easy to down and kill In this game. A key doesn’t mean do nothing the entire game. Did You forget that the hatch opens anyways when you’re last alive without a key? You still have to do the gens lol
a key requires at least 3 gens to be done for it to spawn. That’s 2 gens they didn’t have to do and that’s the most that they can go without fixing. That’s a 44% objective reduction. The killer?? 3 hooks are reduced to 1 hook. Which is 12 hooks reduced to 4 hooks. That’s a 66.7% objective reduction. Way too much compared to keys. It’s not hard to kill survivors with some of the insane add ons killers have already. Moris are just game ruining at that point. Key or no key I don’t use Mori’s. It’s an offering slot like I said. I’m sorry wait... do survivors have an offering that allows them to instantly complete a gen after certain conditions are met? Why can’t they do something to impact their progression on their objective in the offering category?
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I started bringing ebonies for key users and in case someone picks up the key they will get moried as well, if they don't I don't mori them and probably will let them escape or will give hatch if that is the last survivor.
If they don't believe that keys = moris then that is on them, most killer mains like myself hate keys especially if paired up with OoO or a map.
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Downing a survivor is still more work than literally nothing.
also, at least 3 gens? If you're the last survivor left, the hatch ALWAYS spawns. There is no other prerequisite in that case. Its normal spawn is dependent on a ratio of gens completed vs survivors remaining, where less gens are required the more survivors have died. But at 1 survivor remaining, it spawns open even if no gens have been touched the entire game. The rest of your argument is completely irrelevant based on this fact alone: It CAN require more work, just like a mori CAN require additional work if survivors bodyblock/heal someone after they get off the hook, the killer can't secure the hits in an efficient enough manner, etc. The comment was about the bare minimums of work, which is absurdly skewed in favor of keys since you can literally afk and nudge the keyboard occasionally to prevent crows and still use your item for a "free win."
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i have played a lot of both sides and I can guarantee it’s not fair for survivors even from a 1v4 perspective. The killer can absolutely down people so fast due to anti loop and speed it’s disgusting. It’s not even really fun for survivors. I can understand why they need that key. 5 gens is actually a lot to do when considering the fact that they’re all squeezed into a small map. I actually got so upset with how close they were on one map Azarovs Resting Place that, for the first time, I actually posted a complaint on this forum about it. I have never seen 4 gens lined up one one side of that map before all within line of sight of the hill I was standing on. How are the survivors supposed to do their job? They can’t. It’s just ridiculous. Complaining about keys.... please stop. Moris are the ones that need to be removed from the game entirely. Do your damn job as killer and put people down. It’s practically being handed to you on a silver platter and yet people complain that survivors have an alternate escape when it becomes impossible to do their objectives?
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I love doing this, it confuses the hell out of people. I'll bring a mori if I see a key or if I expect its a 4 man swf, then just not use it unless they get absurd pressure very quickly or it looks like a pubstomp group. I constantly get asked why I don't bother using the mori, when its really more of an insurance plan than an actual strategy.
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Nonsense.
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what a compelling argument.
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survivors have to do 3 gens to use their key yes. How do you not understand the math behind the comparisons in strength that I am making between keys and Moris?
USING A KEY when hatch spawns :
4 survivors - all gens done
3 survivors - 4 gens done / 5
2 survivors - 3 gens done / 5
1 survivor is not included because we are talking about key strength. Not the hatch auto opening.
so in order to use a key at the earliest point in time it would be when 2 survivors are dead and the other 2 have a key to get out. At least 3/5 gens have to be done. That leaves 2 gens unfinished which is a 44% objective reduction
USING Ebony Mori’s
3 hooks reduced to 1 hook (and possibly 1 hit) after getting tunneled or proxy camped. Easy kill. Rinse and repeat. 12 hooks down to 4 hooks is a 67% objective reduction when you look at the amount of times you need to hook them rather than the amount of kills. The reason I state hooks as an objective and not kills is because that is LITERALLY part of your emblem quality/category score end of match in order to rank up.
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“Nonsense” was supposed to be added at the end of the last sentence of the previous post
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You were talking about the bare minimum effort needed, so yes the hatch opening automatically when 1 survivor is left is absolutely part of the equation, ESPECIALLY since they can reopen if AFTER the killer closes it. You can fail every breath of the match, do literally nothing while everyone else dies, and STILL escape if you have a key. It rewards bad play more than any other item or mechanic in the entire game, both sides included.
Meanwhile, you could always.... not make it an easy kill? A survivor can waste minutes of the killers time easily, especially if they're being tunneled right off the bat (i.e. nobody else was able to waste pallets before them.) Survivors need to mess up at loops for killers to get a hit in, its legitimately part of the design for the game which only a handful of killers can directly influence. Even if you get killed by a tunneling killer who really wants to mori you off the hook, you can easily waste enough time for them to lose 1-4 gens in the process, which loses them most of the game in the process.
for the thousandth time, moris are bad, but your argument that keys are ok and totally fair because reasons is almost as bad as getting mori'd right off the hook :)
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Sometimes I regret not taking a mori in advance for every match only because there are so many last-minute switches with keys. Usually if I have a challenge to be done when I have to kill survivors or get Devout iri, I dodge lobbies with keys, I don't like using moris or Franklin's. But when I see those last-minute switches (even without keys - 4 Blendettes for example), I get mad, because I never do it as a survivor. I wish I could find a mori in the chest too just for situation like this😅
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I would say an ivory mori is justified, but for the people not in SWF the game will be boring as hell, especially since 99% of killers mori off first hook.
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Honestly yes. I hate mori's too but if someone starts the nonsense by bringing a key to your lobby then punish them with something equally annoying and unfair.
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In general, there is no need to justify anything you use in this game. The problem occurs only with the playstyle. Everything else is entitlement. There are no elite league championships for this game, only tournaments that don't allow moris and keys for mentioned "shortcut" reasons. Other than that, an ebony mori is simply hard mode. You need to perform better and more cautious than in normal games. That happens once in a while but people are just playing normally, offensive gen pressure, revealing themselves because they think they can loop good enough and then complain when they got downed twice. Or simply DC. The entitlement behind that is "I deserve more bloodpoints, I deserve escape, but your mori robbs me".
The only problem is when you completely disallow one or more survivors to participate in the game by finding them first early and then mori off the hook for example. But as I said, that is a playstyle problem, not a mori problem. Everything else is entitlement. No matter if someone runs against Spirit, flashlights, moris, keys, Ruin/Undying, BNPs/PT... everyone will just keep complaining and calling it unfun, but that is nothing the other side has to care about.
You cannot count the hooks for that comparison. If you hook or mori them is the same, you need two downs on a survivor to kill him. That is a 33% reduction
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I get how they're both frustrating but I honestly believe ebony mori should be the only thing changed it's really not that hard to hook somebody one time. If the last guy opens the hatch with the key I'm not really raging about it but when somebody brings an ebony mori I just roll my eyes because of how easy it is to hook a survivor and down them again. But I'm guessing there's a rift that requires the killer to kill all 4 survivors by their own hand.
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It’s easier to hide and do nothing for the whole match and wait for hatch than it is to chase a Survivor who knows what they’re doing.
I could equip Calm Spirit on my Claudette, bring in a Key and and offering to go to the Saloon map and never be found by the Killer if I wanted to remain hidden, unless it’s a Killer that has wall hacks like Michael, Wraith or Legion. And even then, it’s rare. BBQ is easy to counter.
You literally have to just hide for the match while your team does all the work. Saying Moris only need a change shows how biased you are.
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Using what the game offers is never toxic.
Play the game how you wish.
Real toxicity comes from those comments players make when they lose or dislike something you use.
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Without a key you can literally do nothing but hide in a bush and watch your team die, and still escape. Looking at you level 2 Claudette... when I died at 17000 points, she had 3600... and got the escape. I watched her hide in the shadows, get some bold points when the killer was near... and that was it.
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no its not 'toxic' to bring a mori. Its part of the game, just as the map offering key combo is part of the game. No I'm not saying they are equivalent. The point is they are not toxic.
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Yeah, you're good. I usually tunnel key users but when I see one or more it's no mercy.
I'm actually really mad at how hypocritical they are.
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Ya know, you could wait as the last survivor until the killer closes the hatch and then open it yourself with a key again while the killer is busy with the doors.
Also imagine claiming killers are OP.
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There's no reason to feel you have to justify anything. If you have a perk or add-on or offering or item and want to use it, then use it. That's most probably what your opponent is thinking their end also.
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It's fairly simple. Mori's are part of the game. Keys are part of the game. They are literally designed to be used in the game. You don't need justification or excuses to use any of them. Are these items particularly fun? Well no, not for the other side, but since this is a game where we play against others this is pretty much a moot point. The devs didn't design parts of the game so that we could wring our hands and wonder if using such tools is 'fair', they designed them to be used. If there are issues with these tools, thats on the devs, it isn't up to either side to politely not use them because their opposing side think its unfair.
So break out your mori's, Keys and spooky lunchboxes. Stop worrying about what the other side thinks about your set up, because if there is one thing i have learned about this game in the years that i've played it; For all that both sides complain about the other sides utilities, they are damn quick to tell their own side that they should use whatever the heck they like because its not their job to care about the other sides fun.
This frame of mind used to bother me. But i've learned to embrace it because things just aren't going to change while both sides are too busy trying to prove they are right or screaming because the other side got more candy in the latest patch. I don't use meta perks because my playstyle is different, but if one day i feel like slipping on the old DS + Unbreakable combo, or go for a wham bam thank you dead survivors match with mori's and pink addons. Imma do it with very little guilt.
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imho depends on the situation. if you knew they were a duo queue, or a swf, sure. if it was a bunch of solos? nah.
Personally I don't bring keys or moris. If I get a key, it's from a chest, and if I get a Mori, it's from a perk or an add-on.
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Mories and Keys are incomparable. Mories are easily the most broken thing in Dead by Daylight at the moment and have been for a long time. More overpowered than old DS, old infinites, instaheals, old balanced landing on Haddonfield ETC.
Franklins is probably enough to deal with keys.
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In that scenario killer can still get a 3k though it's not a complete loss because the survivors are only a 3 man and it's a lot easier.
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sure.
if they bring good stuff, why shouldnt you?
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Still a win for the escaped Survivor and it is still easier to pull off than chasing and downing a skilled Survivor who has competent teammates.
Not saying that Moris aren’t OP, I’m just saying that they’re comparable to Keys and both need to be nerfed.
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How do you think they should nerf keys?
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If one side is allowed to use everything at their disposal to win, then the other should too since it should be the same way. If the problem becomes a big enough issue the devs will need to kinda tinker with them a bit but if they're in the game they can be used. Simple as that.
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you can complain about azarovs resting place all day long and how unfair it is for survivors when maps like haddonfield, ormond, midwich (granted the survivors have OoO), disturbed ward, and fractured cowshed exist. also, i should mention that they brought a grave of glenvale (saloon) offering, and i was playing nurse, a killer i only have about 100 hours on (I say only because nurse requires a LOT of practice to be considered good). i can't change my killer in the lobby, so i was stuck playing a killer that i wasnt 100% confident on. if i had been playing huntress i would've "done my damn job as killer and put people down", as you put it. do you sincerely think there's nothing wrong with keys though? i've been robbed of my victories on so many occasions because there's 1 gen left, the survivors are 3 genned and they're all on death hook, one person is dead but one of them has a key so they make a 3 man escape. is that seriously fair to you? i play almost as much survivor as i do killer now, and let me tell you, the ONLY time i bring keys is to adept. even then, i still do generators, go for hook saves, get chased by the killer, and be a general good teammate. you can't say that for every survivor who brings a key. also, the amount of keys i see in my games vs the amount of moris is ridiculous. i counted how many keys i went against last night. i played 15 killer games total, and 6/15 had keys. thats 40% of my killer games. my survivor games, however, were completely different. i think i played 8 swf games and maybe 4-5 solo, and NO moris. a couple of OP addons, but NO moris. not even a mori addon/perk. most killers dont have their victories "handed to them on a silver platter", and the ones who do typically are going against the average player when they themselves are god tier nurses, billies, huntress', spirits, etc.
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Exactly, I've been asked as well why not mori all 4? And I just say because I didn't see you guys pick the key.
It's funny but hopefully both things get reworked.
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It’s most definitely not justified. I never use ebony Mori and I get 3-4K easy. Do you have a headset? Do you have map knowledge under your belt? Ok then... you’re fine. It’s way too easy to down people in this game if you need a Mori to get a kill then it’s definitely you, not the games fault. Keys provide an alternative escape route which is absolutely necessary in every competitive survival game. Friday 13th has much more ways of escaping. So don’t cry about a damn hatch or a key. As for Mori’s I would say the yellow one is the most fair. It’s an offering. It shouldn’t be that powerful. Survivors don’t have instant gen completion offerings do they? Why can’t they do their objective with an offering? That’s unfair.
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You absolutely should count hooks. That makes up the majority of your objective. To acquire a certain amount of hooks. Downs don’t count because you can down them an infinite amount of times quit trying to dilute the percentages in favor of making the killers look like the victims here. Downs are not your objective lol. Moris reduce overall total hooks needed not downs. Besides that 2nd down is most often going to happen from tunneling someone off of a hook anyways which thats just basically handed to you because you don’t have to actually take the time to look for that survivor again. It’s called proxy camping. Moris are absolutely unnecessary and should only be in the game for pleasure. Not to effect the experience of your opponent. Keys provide a backup option to escape (regardless of whether or not that player chooses to be useless - that’s simply not the god damn point so don’t use that as an excuse) as seen in other games like Friday 13 where the counselors Are given many ways to escape. When one thing becomes too hard to do, you do something else. With maps as small as they currently are and gens squeezed together it’s pretty easy to find someone and then the next and snowball boom 3-4K every game without mori. Mori is overkill in its current state. Survivors don’t have offerings that allow them to complete their objective so why should killers?
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