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I thought the goal of killer was to kill
But instead these have been my past matches.
Match 1: Goes freddy for daily ritual, survivors kill themselves on hook. Brutal killer
Match 2: Goes hag. Again for daily ritual, this time focuses on chases more. Ends up with 2 kills and 2 escapes, brutal killer
So i'v had enough, guess ill go my main
Match 3: Plays nurse. 2 kills and one survivor finds hatch and opens it, other survivor gets to go through hatch too. Brutal killer
I have about 46 days played on this game (which is +1000 hours) and i still don't get this. Why am i punished for survivors killing themselves on hook? And why is the entity so picky?
Its like if i chose point A (which is quicker) than point B (which is longer). Even tho they end up at the same result (kill everyone) im still punished
Comments
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not every match is the same? its common knowledge that this game isn't balanced and in your third example a key was used which is the most broken thing on the survivor side. Your also not always going to 4k so i see nothing wrong your second example especially if you lack experience with hag since she is harder than nurse when it comes to her play style. As for your 1st example you had no control over that and can barely be called a example since the survivors basically DC'd but used hooks instead and if you had at least a few chases it makes sense that you would get brutal killer with 4 sacrificed.
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This game has strange and unclear win conditions.
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Yeah killer emblem points are pretty broken right know. If you do a 4k with plague at most you can get "brutal killer" because of her power
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At the end of the next match spend some extra time on the emblems screen, and highlight each emblem to read what is required in order for you to do to earn no emblem, bronze, silver, gold, or iridescent in that respective category.
It’s how many emblems you earn of bronze, silver, gold, or iridescent (or no emblem at all) in each category that determines whether you receive Entity Displeased (de-pip), Brutal Killer (safety pip/no pip), Ruthless Killer (1 pip), or Merciless Killer (2 pips).
Hope this helps.
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Also you’re not being punished if survivors kill themselves on the hook. The goal isn’t to rank up. Brutal killer is still a “win” of sorts.
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😯 the goal is to get as close to 32,000 bp as possible from doing multiple tasks including getting 4 kills (hopefully as the result of 12 hookings) in a game that's at least 10 minutes long (for max xp).
If killers in horror movies just efficiently killed everyone in under 5 minutes it'd be boring af.
...another DbD thread that makes me pine for an F13 that won't ever be again...
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Adept-Achievement players will disagree with this.
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The goal is to get as high of a score as you possibly can. If you decide a 4k is a win for you that’s your prerogative, but the game considers wins pipping. Brutal killer is neutral. You didn’t do good, but you didn’t do bad enough score wise to take pips from you.
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The ranking system is just for matchmaking, that’s all it is. Brutal Killer is just the game saying you did what it expected you to do, no more and no less, so it’s going to keep you at similarly rated opponents. Anything better than Brutal Killer is just the game saying you did better than it expected so it’s going to start putting you against tougher survivors.
That’s all Brutal Killer means. It doesn’t mean you won or lost the match, it’s just telling you that for matchmaking purposes the game thinks you are going against roughly the right skill level of opponents. (And eventually when ranks are replaced for matchmaking entirely it won’t even be used for that. Just ignore ranks and pips altogether is my advice.)
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The Entity wants you to kill everyone but he wants you to toy with them a bit. He wants them to have false hope which is why your rewarded more for the game being longer.
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No, pips have nothing to do with “winning”. They’re an incredibly inconsistent measure of winning a match in fact. You can have literally identical matches against identical survivors with all the same events and kills and escapes and times but if you are currently Rank 10 you gain a pip and if you are rank 2 you lose a pip or gain no pip. It’s as if you played a game of tennis but after the game was over they asked you if you were Varsity or Professional before telling you if you won.
Gaining a pip isn’t winning, it’s the game saying it thinks it is matching you against opponents that aren’t as good as you are. That’s all it means. Brutal Killer just means the game thinks you and your opponents were a close match.
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If you pip you won. That’s how the game measures how well you did. If you want a 4k to be your measurement go for it, but pips are what measure if you won or not. Sorry my guy.
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Sorry but you’re wrong. The game giving you a pip is not the game saying “you won” any more than the game not giving you a pip means the game is saying “you didn’t win”. Like I said, whether you win or lose a match, by any reasonable standard, is measured by what happened in the match. But pips are measured based on your ranks outside the match itself. Pips are a matchmaking tool.
Or Think of it this way, it’s possible for both the killer and most of the survivors to gain pips. It’s even possible I think for every player to gain a pip if everybody got hooked twice and it was a long match with a lot of chases and gen work back and forth and rescues. But obviously they didn’t all “win” the match. Either the killer or the survivors won, not both.
Pips measure mainly how active you were in the match and go up or down in large part based on whether th game thinks you can handle tougher opponents or should be paired against weaker ones. That’s all they do. Sorry guy. 🤷♂️
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Why would you get a pip to rank up... If you lost? Devs implemented pips to measure how well you did. The reliability of it doesn’t matter. Survivors also pipping doesn’t mean you didn’t win. Survivors don’t have to escape to win. Killers don’t have to 4k to win. Pips were added to measure how well you play the game in the ways the devs want you to play it. That means if you pip you won. You move up in ranks. Sorry guy. 🤷♂️
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P.S. I do kind of wish the developers had the game simply declare a winner. “Killer wins” or “Survivors win” or maybe “Draw” if they want draws. Leaving it ambiguous just leads to these dumb arguments about whether kills or bloodscore or pips or whatever are “wins”. Behaviour should just pick an official measurement to declare a winner and go with it, this is the only two sided competitive game I’ve seen that doesn’t declare a winner.
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Why do you keep thinking I’m saying you need to 4k to win as killer? If anything I tend to think the player with the highest bloodscore is a much better indicator of the actual winner of the match. Bloodscores are based strictly on what happens in the match and don’t change based on artificial ranks outside the match, they’re way more consistent than pips. Or alternatively, I tend to go with 3-4 kills is a killer win, 0-1 kills is a loss and 2 kills is a close game with the highest bloodpoint score being the tie breaker.
Pips were not added to indicate a winner, they were added to replace how the game matches you against opponents. Brutal Killer means “maybe you won, maybe you lost, but either way we’re going to keep matching you against the same opponents”. Like I said, you can’t even declare a winner with pips since both sides can gain them simultaneously.
Sorry 🤷♂️
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You know bloodscore and pips are directly linked? Right? If you get 28-32k bp you get merciless. You’re one of few who think whoever got the most blood points out of the five is the winner of the match. You can disagree and say what you personally believe Indicates a win, but pips are what dictate a win or not. You aren’t going to lose and rank up. You aren’t going to win and rank down. The more pips you have the more bp you’ll have.
Sorry 🤷♂️
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You are overlooking that whether or not you gain a pip is tied directly to your current rank. You can literally get 30k and also Brutal Killer if you are a high rank killer.
If you honestly think pips dictate a win then answer these:
- Why can two identical matches have you win one match and lose another match based solely on where you are in matchmaking?
- Why can both survivors and the killer “win” by everybody gaining a pip?
- Why can you “lose” a match if you have a high score and 3 kills?
The only answer to these questions that makes sense is that pips are for matching up opponents of relatively equal skill. They’re for seeding purposes. If you gain a pip it just means the game wants to start putting you in a higher bracket.
And by the way you most definitely can lose a close match, only getting maybe one kill and not having the highest score in the match, and still gain a pip at low ranks. The pips are extremely easy to get in brown ranks compared to higher ranks.
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P.S. Pips also aren’t directly measured the same as score. They actually use slightly different metrics. Pips use the medal system points, not bloodscore. So for example, if you use Speed Limiter and get a bunch of bonus endgame bloodpoints for hits, it has no effect on your medals or pips.
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P.P.S. And there’s another example of how score makes more sense to indicate winner than Pips. Add-ons like Speed Limiter which make you play at a disadvantage but give you a score boost only make sense from a design perspective if the devs consider score to be victory points. Speed Limiter literally hurts you in terms of pips with zero benefit. But hypothetically it can increase your endgame score if you get hits with it during the match so it can, at least in principle, make up for putting you at a handicap assuming that score means something for determining the winner.
Why though would they have add-ons that make you worse but give you a score benefit if score didn’t mean anything?
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If you’re in a higher rank you should be performing better. Of course it takes more to pip the higher you rank up. You act like that changes the fact that pips are what measure a win. Everyone in higher ranks has to work harder to get their win. A rank 20 and a rank 1 aren’t going to have the same conditions for piping. There’s no other way of measuring a win. BP is tied to piping and a 4k can lead to everyone depipping at the end if you down everyone once and get one hook on each. Until a better system is in place it’s up to how you personally define a win if you don’t like how the ranking and pipping system works. Doesn’t mean that the devs didn’t mean for pips to be the win condition.
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The devs have literally never said that Pips mean you won or lost the match. Never. You keep trying to imply that they have but in fact they have stubbornly avoided wanting to give us any actual official winner or loser. There is no official winner or loser in this game, and that’s part of the problem. There are three different metrics for performance (kills/escapes, bloodpoints and pips) and the devs refuse to actually declare a winner and just want players to decide. This is the only competitive game I know that doesn’t declare a winner.
What they have done is said that ranks and pips are used for matchmaking. And that they are going to be replaced for matchmaking by the new MMR once its reenabled. And that they are keeping ranks in the game after that so they can leverage them eventually for other things (no details but probably extra bloodpoints or cosmetics for hitting higher ranks, who knows?)
So please stop trying to say the devs intend pips to be the way the game declares a winner. They’ve never said that.
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Why would you lose and rank up?
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This is a thorny subject. In the LORE the ultimate goal of the Killers is to sacrifice the Survivors before they get out of the match. That creates this notion in the minds of many Killers (particularly new) that doing so in the most efficient manner is the way to go. The problem is that the mechanical aspects of the game don't reward this whatsoever. It would be better to think about it this way in the Lore:
*The Entity is an immortal being which clearly takes great joy, entertainment, and perhaps sustenance from the fear, anguish and emotional roller coaster created by matches. If it was just immediate torture and death it wanted, it would not have the farce of the repeating contests in the first place. Clearly the Entity needs the Survivors to experience hope, so it can be snatched away. For whatever reason (beyond what is speculated here) the Entity wants matches to last a bit, to draw out the event. That is why it considers letting the Killers murder people a "treat". Mostly it wants people put on hooks, pulled off, only to be hooked again and eventually sacrificed.
The mechanics (Emblems and BP) does match up with this viewpoint. You earn more toward advancement (and BP) by playing extended matches. The longer the match lasts and the more different types of activities you engage in, the more you earn. Consider the Gatekeeper Emblem. If you efficiently kill the Survivors in the first two minutes, you haven't really earned much. If you 1-Hook all your Survivors and they die on that hook, you are only shortchanging yourself. Like it or not, the only way for you (or the Survivors) to maximize their Emblems is to play fairly competitive, longer matches. Gen-Rushing Survivors that get gates open in record time and avoid the Killer and injury don't really score much either. The Entity is interested in the STRUGGLE. The outcome is really unimportant since it will just replay over and over again.
So what does all this mean? It means that Killers suffer from 1-Hook and camping in MORE ways than just letting the rest of the Survivors get the Generators up. It means that Survivors who do nothing but Gen-Rush are also costing themselves points. It means that the DEV want games to last longer and be more conflict and angst-driven. Survivors seem fanatical about turning the game into a status-bar simulator and avoiding the dangerous stuff. Killers seem intent on getting a person down and then guaranteeing that kill. Well, I hate to tell you this but the Entity (and the mechanics) do not like a sure thing.
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You can rank up at low ranks simply by playing decently. You only need 9 total medal points out of a possible 16 to gain a pip at ranks 16-20. For reference that’s one Gold and three silver medals. You could easily get those medals simply by getting into enough chases, kicking enough gens and hooking a few survivors. I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t even need to kill anyone at all.
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No. How can you lose and rank up? I didn’t ask how pipping worked. Pipping means you rank up. Why would you rank up if you lost? You could lose your way all the way up to rank 1. Makes sense.
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Because the Entity (Emblems) is happy with your overall performance. It doesn't care if they get away, not really. It cares about the sport, the struggle.
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You can lose and rank up at low levels because the matchmaking system expects you to play badly at ranks 16-20 and not actually do anything productive. But you can be productive and still lose a match if the opponents simply outplay you. If I play well but my opponents also play well they have a good chance of winning. Pips only indicate that the game thinks you “played well” for your current rank, they say nothing though about whether your opponents also played at least as well as you did or whether and to what degree you accomplished the main goals of the games (i.e.scoring points and getting kills)
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Pips mean you played more than well. If you simply played well for your rank you’d safety pip and stay stagnant. It simply doesn’t make sense to say you can rank up and lose. It’s contradictory. In any other game you rank up when you win. It’s inherent in the idea of ranking up.
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I agree, the ranking system is weird. And yes, it does mean that you can, as a killer, get no kills and have a survivor with the highest score but still gain a pip because the matchmaking system thinks “he played well enough for a new player that he should start being put in the deeper end of the pool.”
Again, I wish the devs would actually put in the game “Killer wins” or “Survivors win” instead of intentionally leaving everything ambiguous. It’s this vagueness that causes conflation between matchmaking and “winning” and how much bloodpoints matter or don’t versus kills.
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Yeah, I agree that the vagueness is dumb and I’m not saying you can’t have your own opinion of what winning is. If a 4k or something BP is a win to you I’m fine with that. Many people consider a win to be a 3-4k. I just think the fact that they added a ranking system and medal system means a win is to rank up and get as good of medals as possible. A 4k feels great, but I feel most like I’ve won after a game ends and I see 4 iri medals, 31-32k bloodpoints, and a 4k. That means I played the game and won in the way the devs intended. Ruthless even feels good. At the end of the day winning is whatever makes you feel like you’ve won. If you had a fun and fulfilling experience.
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Again I’m not sure why you think I believe you need 4 kills to win. I already said personally I like measuring my own “wins” as a combination of kills and bloodpoints (3-4 kills is a win, 0-1 kills a loss, 2 kills a tie with bloodpoints the tiebreaker. And if the scores are close then it was a close game all around.) I don’t even bother slugging for the 4k personally, it’s pretty boring doing that.
I get that gaining a pip feels good, the game is saying you did well so great! And nobody likes being told the game is “disappointed” in them. My whole point is simply that as an objective measure of which side won the match relative to the other that pips aren’t a consistent metric because when you look at pips you get odd results where both sides “win” or “lose” or you can win one game when you’re new, do exactly the same things later and not win because now you’re “experienced”. And pips really don’t even directly tell you too much about how your opponents did relative to you either.
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I didn’t say you needed 4 kills. I said you needed pips. If you want the highest possible score you need to get 4 kills and as many hooks as possible. I don’t think the game treating a new player different than one in higher ranks means that pips don’t mean you’ve won. Most games with ranks also do that. It takes longer to get higher and higher in rank. Dbd does this by making it harder to get pips the higher rank you are. I did say many think a 3-4k is a win. I never said I was one. You cannot rank up while losing. It’s contradictory lol
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But you can rank up and lose if the survivors do better than you did. Just because you do well doesn’t mean you win. Also if pips mean you “win” it follows that it’s easier to “win” versus a given set of opponents when you are a brand new player than when you are an experienced player which doesn’t really make sense either. Why should you “win” more as a new player? Or if you derank because you haven’t played in a long time, and start gaining pips when you come back because you are lower rank but otherwise are playing the exact same games you always did, does it make sense that you “win more” after taking a hiatus? (And not because your opponents are worse, but rather because even against the same opponents you had before the threshold to gain a pip is lower after you’ve deranked). Heck, after a monthly derank every killer goes down a bracket and starts gaining pips pretty much immediately, but they’re all playing the same opponents they did the day before. Why would it make sense to say that all the killers across the board are “winning more now than yesterday”?
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you shouldnt measure your wins according to the emblem system the win conditions are lame af
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The strange win conditions are based on the lore of the game.
Entity feeds off survivors on the hooks and their hope. There’s not much hope going on when chases are very short & they are all killed within 3 mins, hence the low score.
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The thing is every other win condition you’ve suggested is arbitrary. The only solid information the game gives on how well you did is medals and pips. Going off bp or kills can be your personal choice and I fully support it, but the ranking system, medals, and pips are all the game has to measure how well you performed at what the devs or lore wise the entity wants you to be doing. In 99% of games with ranks its harder for higher level players to continue ranking up. That’s not specific to dbd. A 4k depip means you lost. A safety pip with 20k+ bp means you didn’t win/tied. You stay stagnant. You can’t say someone loses and ranks up. The two are in direct opposition of one another. To be completely fair the game isn’t all that much of a killer wins survivor loses game. You can both win. It’s all about performance within the game and how to game scores said performance.
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Huh? Bloodpoint score is totally objective. You get X number of points for doing Y. It’s a black and white scoring system, it’s no more arbitrary than medals. Same with kills and escapes, either someone dies or they don’t.
And you keep saying a depip means “you lost” but, again, that’s you saying it, not the devs. Same with you saying you can’t win if you don’t gain a pip,that’s you saying it and not the devs.
I do agree though that the game doesn’t have “winners and losers” officially.
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That’s my point. The only thing that’s not subjective is pips and medals. You are rewarded those for how well you performed. If you pip you won.
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I really like this comment, tho the entity has she/her pronouns
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But bloodpoints and kills aren’t subjective. They’re black and white objective numbers. They’re no more subjective than medals.
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You're reading it completely wrong. I never said i played this game for 46 days. I said the amount of time is 46 days, meaning if theres 24 hours in a day, do 46 times 24 and you get 1104. Thats how many hours i have in reality
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killer: kills
survivor: survives
killer: wait thats illegal
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kills 100% are subjective. If you 4k in the first 3 minutes of the game with Myers you’ll depip because the goal of the game isn’t to just get kills. Bloodpoints and pips are basically the same. If you get a bunch of bloodpoints you’ll almost always pip. Its very rare you won’t.
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Maybe you’re using the word “subjective” differently than I use it? I’m using subjective to mean “its value is determined by the player”. Objective is “its value is determined by the game”. Scoring events are objective - I hit someone i get X points. A survivor unhooks someone they get Y points. The numbers are set in stone, my opinions don’t change them. Same with medals, what medal you get is objective. And same with kills, there’s no disputing whether or not I kill a survivor, it’s not subject to opinion.
What’s “subjective” here is whether or not a player thinks they “won” the game. The game has no objective statement that “you won the game”, it just has objective numbers and saying “here is your score, here is who died, here is your new rank”. What you make out of those things is entirely up to you, that final claim of “I won” is subjective.
My argument is that, in my opinion, pips are not a good way to determine the winner and that the devs have never even claimed that they are intended to be used for that purpose in the first place. So my recommendation is ignore pips when thinking about whether or not you “won” the match and focus instead on the other measurements that only rely on things that actually happened within the match itself for your self-determination. Rank will go up or down as you play naturally anyway, there’s no need to focus on it on an individual match basis in my opinion because, as I said, it is a poor measure of winning and losing.
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Seems As though the killers goal is to SURVIVE the survivors toxicity
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Because the entity feeds on hope. Both the killers and the survivors. Killers hope they get to kill everyone and survivors hope they escape. If all survivors die first hook that's not very nice for the entity so it wont be happy.
Just remember though it's not fun for survivors when another survivor suicides on first hook.
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A better way to look at it is the Entity (the Emblems) enjoys a good game, a struggle. Just like us, the Entity doesn't think a "blowout" is all that fun to watch. Ideally, equally skilled Killers and Survivors go up against one another and thus matches would rarely be anything but hard fought. This is why the Emblems/BP reward people who have hard fought, longer matches more than ones that are over fast and efficiently. Let me point out a few things:
- As s Survivor I can bring (5) Generators up by myself and get out alive and not score all that many points.
- As a Killer I can 4K the Survivors and have the game over in record time and not score much and even lose a Pip.
The Survivors in the examples above didn't earn any Altruism points, probably not much in the way of Bold or chases either. The Killer won't have much in the way of chases, lost out on hooks, etc. The Entity isn't really that interested in watching you play Status Bar Simulator, or see the Killer stand there and whack the hooked Survivor like a Pinata.
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Getting a "win" for some reason is different for every killer and I don't know why
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True
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