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What's wrong with making deathslinger miss?
I'll probably get shamed for this but where did this mentality of, "You didn't juke him he just missed."
If you see him aiming (and using his power properly instead of faking) what's wrong with making him miss? He thought you were still going one way yet you made a last second decision and swerved to the right or left. *YOU* made him miss, now he has a shot cooldown and reload cooldown. Just the pure fact that you made him think one way instead then change your direction last second then you made him miss because of that. I can tell you, some of you guys dodged or made him miss in some way, yet it's made to seem like you didn't do anything at all in your situation because it's always the Killer making the mistake not you. You had a hand in making him miss his shot why not give yourself credit for doing so? I don't know if I'm making sense or not, but at the same time I'm not making this discussion out of anger or being upset I just genuinely want to know where this mentality came from when it does seem like you.
Edit: Since the original comment was buried, I wanted to thank those who used analogies and explained what usually the idea was since not much posts really talk about what's *wrong* with making him miss. So, I just decided to just ask it myself and only expect just a few responses I thought would just be sarcasm, name-calling at me, some explanations about the topic of said post, and just assumptions about me as usual which this thread has a few of. But I at the same time I didn't want to cause any trouble because I just had a a question that wanted to know the answer to. I never intended any bad vibes either and I feel like I made a few other users disgusted towards me just by this post alone which I sort of feel bad for since I had no intentions of bad vibes or causing an argument. But again thank you to those who explained it and shed some light for me.
Edit 2: Goddamn it man.
Comments
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The argument I hear is that you didn’t juke him. He just missed. I don’t particularly agree with it. I’m pretty sure it’s just people repeating what Scott Jund said when talking about Deathslinger. I see the reasoning. Any Deathslinger with a bit of patience should be able to tag you even with the juking. The main strat is to just force you into a deadzone and gain distance by aiming and then smacking you though.
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I'll probably get shamed for this but where did this mentality of, "You didn't juke him he just missed."
Its not a mentality, its a fact. You can not react to his quickscope, especially not if he is semi-close range.
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The argument mainly comes from not being very good against him, also you made very good points.
Huntress has the exact same projectile speed when fully charged with the hitbox of a train and apparently you can dodge that.
If you can't dodge slinger, you can't dodge huntress. Take your pick.
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Try playing a FPS without a weapon. Instead, your goal is to dodge other people's shots. Let me know if you have fun.
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My question is, why did he not just fake his power if he wasn’t going to shoot instantaneously? What’s the point in trying to aim and giving your opponent an opportunity to dodge when you could just shoot so fast they have no time to even realize you’ve shot your weapon?
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Forces a survivor into a dead zone, makes his real shot more lethal and unexpected when the survivor is injured
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If you see him aiming, as in he's holding his gun up, he's moving slower than you, which means you can pre-emptively dodge without losing distance. You can certainly make him miss in that case by moving unpredictably.
The trouble with Deathslinger is that you can't really make him miss when he's zoning with his power. Like, imagine he's chasing you and spamming his ADS button to repeatedly fake a shot. You have two options: 1) dodge, and you'll lose a lot of distance and he'll M1 you, or 2) don't dodge, and he'll realize you're not going to dodge and you'll be a sitting duck for his ranged attack. In that situation, you can't really make him miss. If he fakes four shots in a row and finally shoots on the fifth, there's just no way you're going to not dodge or the first four and magically dodge on the fifth. You're either taking a hit, or he's going to miss on his own.
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from 0m - 12m it is not humanly possible to juke his shot even if you had the world record reaction time (0.15s) when deathslinger can ads in 0.13s, which means there was no input from your end that affected the outcome you did nothing to make him miss he made a mistake and missed his shot
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Huntress has a wind-up, Derpslinger does not.
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A windup doesn't make it dodgeable, it makes it more predictable. Plus even if it does have a windup - according to people who say you cant dodge a slinger - she will get the hit anyway because it travels just as fast as slinger.
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You can dodge Huntress's hatchet pre-emptively because she moves at 77% speed while readying a throw, but you cannot react to a max-charge hatchet unless you're basically across the map. Deathslinger should behave the same way, because his speed while aiming down sight is 75% and his projectile speed is the same as a max-charge hatchet, but he doesn't because he doesn't need to stay in that stance for a few seconds to shoot like Huntress does. He can just quick scope, meaning he hardly slows down at all because he's hardly spending any time at that 75% speed. That's the problem with Deathslinger. If he was forced to ADS for a second or two before shooting and especially if he also had a cooldown while lowering his weapon during which he couldn't M1, survivors would be able to alligator run and make him miss just like they can for Huntress. As is, if you try to dodge pre-emptively you're taking an M1, and if you don't you're a sitting duck for a quick scope.
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If he’s aiming to force a survivor into a dead zone couldn’t you just M1 them instead for a guaranteed hit? No need to use your power after you’ve forced the survivor into a dead zone unless the survivor still has significant distance.
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Try playing Mordhau without a weapon. Instead, your goal is to avoid fights and run away if enemies get too close to you. See if you have fun.
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Her movement speed does not matter when it comes to dodging, all it means is that she catches up slower. If she holds she's just a really slow deathslinger that throws trains. It's still by the logic of some people not dodgeable because the movement speed doesn't matter, the projectile speed does.
You can already do small strafes side to side and move totally unpredictably to the point where it's borderline impossible for him to hit his shot. Along with dodging at corners despite if he has drawn his weapon or not - this is where he turns into a 50/50 whether he will shoot or not.
More importantly, he is not lose lose like you are proposing. If you start going around a corner he has to guess whether you will dodge or not. He doesn't react to what you do, he guesses along with you as survivor strafe speeds are near enough instant. This lets you dodge him.
As for reference, I do think that you can dodge both a slinger and a huntress, I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of people saying you can dodge a huntress but not a slinger by using the same logic.
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The main reason people say this is because you can't react to when the death slinger is going to shoot. You can only assume he is going to shoot and dodge what you think he is going to do. Most death slingers don't aim down there sights more then a second so him missing his shoot or you juking his shot (however you want to look at it) would be similar to a huntress aiming her hatchet and you juking to the side when you think she is going to throw it.
Its kinda the same thing when trying to dh a fully wound hatchet up close. You are just guessing at the timing and possibly getting it right. Or the killer just messed up and missed.
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this is the perfect analogy
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It being more predictable makes it more dodgeable.
Keep up.
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The movement speed really does matter in my opinion. It's not that Huntress catches up slower while readying a hatchet - she's actively losing distance for every moment she holds her hatchet up. Even if survivors dodge side to side they're probably still outrunning her. So, even though nearby survivors can't react to a max speed hatchet, they can still move unpredictably to force a miss without risking that she'll catch up to them and get into M1 range. You can't do that against a killer like Deathslinger that can use his ranged attack without giving up distance. If you try to move unpredictably, you will lose distance rapidly, and you will eat an M1. If you can't move unpredictably to force a miss and you can't react to a shot, the survivor basically can't force a miss it's almost entirely on the killer.
If you're actually strafing side to side you are either giving up distance on him, or it's just the A + D spam on PC that doesn't really give up distance, but that also doesn't move your torso enough to dodge a well-aimed shot. There's no in-between. Corners are only 50/50s if both of the following are true: 1) the survivor will be able to pre-drop a safe pallet around the corner or vault a safe window around the corner and get clear of it before the Deathslinger can round the corner, and 2) the survivor can dodge away from the corner and still make it to a pallet or window before the Deathslinger can M1 them. That is not most corners, and you do not get to pick where you engage Deathslinger because of his microscopic TR. If there isn't safety in the direction of the dodge, the Deathslinger can just shoot regardless; either they get a hit with the shot or they force the survivor to dodge towards an unsafe tile where they'll be able to land an M1. If there isn't safety around the corner, the Deathslinger can just continue to chase.
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Tbh it doesn't make it any more or less predictable once in range, just more limited. Higher windup limits opportunities to shoot which has nothing to do with the actual prediction so it's the same in terms of dodging.
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That makes no sense.
That's like saying "ok she might throw a hatchet in a few seconds. I still have absolutely no clue however where she is going to throw it".
Knowing when she might throw it doesn't make it completely dodgeable, knowing where she will throw it makes it dodgeable.
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I guess you've never played knife only.
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Yeah but here's the thing, huntress actually has a windup to tell you when she could be getting ready to throw a hatchet. Deathslinger can just instantly shoot you with no way to react.
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Imma just quote myself:
Knowing when she might throw it doesn't make it completely dodgeable, knowing where she will throw it makes it dodgeable.
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Let's clarify something: Dodging is when you see the projectile coming, and get out of the way. Not just randomly moving around and hoping it doesn't hit you, that's just hoping to force a miss. They might sound similar and result in a similar outcome, but they are massively different in terms of counterplay.
How do people not understand this? Deathslinger can ADS and fire his weapon, which can spear you, almost before the game has even updated to show you he has done so. The reason it's so much easier with Huntress is that she has a huge windup that has a big animation AND a grunt, and then there's projectile speed, Deathslinger is 1000% or whatever the second he fires, Huntress is like 600% to start with, and when you hear the "ding," she has caught up to Slinger's 1000%, except generally you'll be much farther away by the time she fully charges (windup animation, grunt, massive slow while winding up a hatchet, charge time, it all adds up to you gaining distance), so it's much easier to dodge, because you see it coming.
Hence, against a good Slinger, it's not you dodging because if the Slinger is accurate, he will hit you, and you will not have time to dodge, just to move around randomly and hope that's enough. He can do that in just a few frames, so you're praying your moving left and right is enough. If you're being super generous, you can call that a "dodge," but in reality, he can hit you so quickly that your movement doesn't matter. The better the Slinger, the less effective your "dodging" becomes. Against a bad Slinger, just juking left and right might bait out a few hits, but a good one will just get close enough to insta-spear you.
It's a matter of reaction time limits and server limits vs. insanely fast projectile speed at low distances. Obviously if you're at max spear distance, you can actually dodge it.
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As a game designer, an active modern fps player, and after having a sizable amount of experience on Deathslinger, I think I have some good insight for this topic.
Deathslinger does have a small delay before the shot goes off when quickscoping. Unless it's close in range you have to lead. Dodging in and off itself isn't hard when moving back and forth near corners because of the hit reg with the servers and these delays at mid/long range. In fact, it is very hard to hit a player that does this.
The fake shots are pretty strong, perhaps too strong and very necessary to rely upon due to the current deathslinger/survivor interaction and game balance.
For the people saying play an FPS without a gun, try to dodge and see if you have fun.
It's actually pretty fun in 2 modern fps games. Overwatch and Apex Legends.
It is very easy to dodge at medium/long range in Apex Legends because of the travel time of bullets. The movement system also allows sliding, jumping and climbing. Some characters also have some movement abilities. Regularly in that game you have to abandon fighting when you are outnumbered or out positioned. Dodging and getting to a desirable location does take skill for sure, and it is very fun/intense when you are trying to save your team.
In Overwatch, there is no movement acceleration meaning you can change directions very quickly, pretty similar to dead by daylight, but the overall movement and strafing speed is faster. People call it AD spamming and then you throw in random quick crouches. It makes it very hard to hit targets doing this even if you are good at aiming, especially if you are using a gun like Deathslingers that has a long time time period between each shot. Automatic guns function a bit differently. Furthermore, dodging as the heroes Lucio, Tracer and Mercy with her ultimate is extremely fun and super easy to do.
Game engine movement style, movement abilities, direction changing acceleration and the rounds per minute/projectile speed of the gun at hand are the variables that determine whether dodging against a shooter is fun, skill based or even possible.
With that being said, if survivors had more movement abilities at their disposal it would make things more fun imo. It is frustrating for survivors currently because their tools are line of sight and trying to predict a quick scope. And if they are not immediately right near an object or wall, the Deathslinger can continually fake shots and there is not much they can do. It doesn't feel very interactive, or at least the interaction is not fun. I think it boils down to poor overall design between current Deathslinger's gun functionality and survivor capabilities.
The frustrating thing about playing Deathslinger is the unreliability of how his projectile functions. Besides intended mechanics such as distance, I think the server/lag changes the accuracy of the gun in any given game against any given survivor. It is not fun to miss when you feel like you perfectly led/timed a shot. It occurs pretty regularly that I have no idea why the shot didn't land.
Perhaps a hitscan weapon and more mobility options for the survivors would make it better for both sides. since the projectile weapon is not very functional with the current netcode that exists and the survivors don't have any fun options to dodge the bullets.
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Huntress fully charged you cant dodge. It also takes time and she cant instantly do it and also has a cooldown for canceling and also cant zone by existing.
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Really if the survivor is aware they're being hunted, and Deathslinger is hunting, then if the shot doesn't land it's most likely both combined. A mix between weaving and missing. Really, the only exception would be if the Deathslinger remained completely undetected, the survivor was unaware, and the Deathslinger still misses. Then that's completely on Caleb.
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Thanks for this analytical post. Makes a lot of sense.
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Yeah obviously, but you have a much higher chance of avoiding something if you have a general idea of when it is coming. With deathslinger you have no real idea of when he could shoot because he has instant ads.
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You still have no idea when it's coming, she could hold it for ages and then cancel or throw instantly. That's where your prediction comes in.
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Yeah but you at least have some idea and can say "okay I need to get behind something" instead of just getting instant sniped with no way to know when he was going to shoot. Hence counterplay.
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Why can't Deathslinger mains accept their killer is BS in a chase and just move on lmao. You don't have to open dozens of threads to try and convince people your main is more fair in a chase than we think. Just play who you wanna play who cares
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Why aren't you running behind cover anyway against slinger? You don't need a warning to get behind cover, it should be pretty obvious to do it anyway.
That's not slinger lacking counters that's you misplaying.
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There's a difference between acknowledging strong mechanics and spreading flat out lies about a killer due to lack of experience as or against them. The amount of arguments made that come from people just not knowing deathslinger is insane.
Even then, some people just hate on deathslinger to hate and follow the bandwagon.
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yes exciting to dodge because of travel time, the travel time of 0.13s which is unreactable and inhumanly possible to dodge without being a plain guess, makes sense
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I came back here after 4 hours because I thought this would've been overlooked and sort of forgotten about it, but I come back to see 32 notifications. And HOLY HELL I've learned some new things and you guys made interesting points mostly on Deathslinger posts I don't see too much explaining about this side of the topic in those types of post (while also genuinely confused on where the idea/fact came from. I don't use deathslinger's power to spam ADS moreover I just use it the way it was supposed to used in the first place.) But more than a lot of you have done their part and explained it out which made it more clear, and either or I'm fine with the ADS getting removed and a cool down to prevent less faking he needs it for the best and I trust the devs with what they might do I just hope they don't turn him that'll heavily impact him. Though I'll try and adapt as best as I can because I grabbed this guy as soon as he came out and I'm not planning on leaving him out to dry anytime soon.
But yeah thank you again to those who explained it, and those who used analogies in some ways to get the point across. Again, not much people or posts elaborated on it so I just went with it and asked. Plus I hope that all of you guys know that I mean well when I made this post. No bad vibes or anything I just had a question that I just wanted to be answered:
Edit: (Oh no)
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There is a lot of misinformation in this thread. Number 1 is, his “quick scope” is not as fast as you might think. If you don’t believe me, go play a match with him and tap m2 into m1; it doesn’t work.
Secondly, his gun is a projectile, not an instant shot. It is fast enough to not be as dodgeable up close, but DS has to predict your movement if you are further away. The most common scenario is that the survivor has distance and is near a corner. DS will be forced to take a shot, which means the survivor can change their path to make him miss. The distance he might gain is negligible since his movement is really slow while aiming.
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Cause people don't grasp the concept of predicting shots. They either wait for something unreactable or they start dodging shots that aren't coming
As a general rule if thumb if you're about to enter a funnel you can bet he will shoot. Other then that it's minimizing the openings he has to shoot you by using LOS blockers.
In the open at most you can run in a serpentine motion. People that do complete 90° turns are asking to be faked
And for the love of god throw the pallet BEFORE he gets there. This completly messes slingers up. Especially when you know he's in a chase you should already throw the closest pallet near you down.
If you play correctly he can't down you near a dropped pallet unless it's the smallest of loops
Hell throw down random pallets and walk away. If you can bait the slowest killer to waste time investigating nothing but a thrown pallet then that pallet did it's job
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Because all you can do is make his shot a little harder. You cannot make him miss. The whole idea of "I can make him miss" shows it's easier to swallow a fantasy than accept that you're facing a bad Slinger. It's the same mentality as "Nurse has counterplay." Like it or no, a good Nurse doesn't, and neither does a good Slinger, because it is on them to fail, not on you to succeed.
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In most cases the huntress won't be able to hold her hatchet for a very long time because the survivor would reach some kind of cover while she's losing more and more distance.
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Because you didn't make him miss? Deathslinger treats you not as a player but as AI, and when that AI produces random motions sometimes, a Deathslinger might fool himself into missing. It has nothing to do with you, but that's true for quite a lot of things irl for which people love to take credit.
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But its the act of you wiggling that makes him miss.
You’re not dodging after hes fired but I guarantee if you ran in a straight line the DS players would miss much less often.
Add in latency too and thats exactly what happens. I played DS earlier and survivors were wiggling and my shots missed even though the harpoon WENT RIGHT THROUGH THE SURVIVOR!!!
Its like when you hit them, see the harpoon hit, see the survivor get turned around and react....and then they turn back and vault the window.
This is what happens when the game matches you against people from the other side of Europe.
You’re not dodging after he has fired maybe but trust me all that wiggling is you making him miss.
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The better DS players will just wait for you to wiggle right in to your ADS though.Same with Huntress
Also latency affects both sides.I had games in which i hit survivors around corners but also shot right through them too.
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Certain survivors want a concrete and mathematical way to "beat" all killers in a 1v1.
Deathslinger is like spirit where you need to get in their head and predict them.
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This. God forbid the killer has an advantage in the chase when it’s a 4v1. Survivors are spoiled because they normally can enforce loops with little to no options for m1 killers. Time to get gud.
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Deathslinger if you're far off or mid distance away, you have to take bait his shot. And seems survivors that want him nerfed don't want to think as much. You have to really think as the Deathslinger too, would you take that shot? You have to think against him.
People say he has no counter play. Which is completely untrue. Huntress is overall better, let's nerf her next yeah? (At least the right thing to nerf on her, you know what it is.)
It's not her being better is my point. How would you counter him? Simple, lose line of sight is one if you're close. Best to GAIN DISTANCE.
Gaining distance is a killer against all killers except a few. Deathslinger is one of them that you can counter with distance. As a survivor, distance is everything. People tend to stay at a pallet, and play normally. You have to play different against these killers. The chase will be different. Play different, and get distance. His power in chase is strong, that's about it. Anything else? Well, he isn't great on. As a 110% killer, he is the weakest in my eyes.
But mostly, if the killer has an advantage in chase, which should be a thing. He is a killer. You can't always get away and have a 10 minute chase.
He is good, but not that good. If a survivor makes a chase a good 30-45-60 seconds, these are are GREAT times as a survivor. These times on a gen is great. Especially is all 3 are on another gen.
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^^^This is true... He may miss because you are weaving but it is all just random luck on survivors part. You can't possibly react in time. I main deathslinger I would advise using line of sight blockers because any decent slinger will see you weaving and fake scope you randomly and close a lot of distance in the process.
I get many m1 hits by quick scope spamming weavers.
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No. because I can't read him every 50/50.
If you give me 30 TL walls to run, I'm eventually going to fail a mindgame and get hit. That's just how the game is and Slinger is designed to be 50/50s.
Lets say I could read everything he does, I could genuinely have him looped for a while, but I can't read him every time and I shouldn't be able to read him every time as he is a good slinger player.
You shouldn't be able to reliably loop an extremely good killer player playing a killer whos power is solely in a chase. You can still loop him for a bit if you somehow guess every 50/50 correct, but expecting to loop him easily is unrealistic.
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Kind of you swallowing the fantasy that the killer is just uncounterable instead of it being you who's not playing correctly?
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