Please stop
In the face of the recent trend of criticising certain practices and people, I think there are things that need to be cleared up a little.
It saddens me to see so many users penalised and posts removed. It appears that many people fall for a misconception regarding the way things are operated.
Please, don´t assume that everyone is subject to the same rules and standards. We as customers are just guests here in the forum, for example.
Some are free to break the rules of DBD. They are also free to act in a toxic way, to hurt others and to get them banned, unpenalised as they please. There is nothing you can do about it. You may dislike it, but you may not bring it up if you want to continue being part of the community.
Most of what has been brought up recently is already known by many people. All that is achieved by posts addressing certain issues is the poster getting banned. Some things have to be discussed elsewhere.
The forums have much more to offer. Personally I really enjoy being able to interact and exchange opinions with other community members. There´s great stuff to read here. People looking for help or advice usually get these in an impressively nice manner.
Please stop criticising the wrong people, it´s neither news nor will it change anything about the way things are. Let´s instead focus on productive or engaging things that are allowed, we are not entitled to fairness.
Just my 2 cents
Comments
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Well said thank you for saying this, plenty of times I have said things that probably got myself close to a ban. But lately I've checked myself (before I've wreaked myself) now focus on being memey and positive as possible.
I have tho always encouraged positive behaviour on these forums alot.
I now know as much as I would like to discuss certain things it's really not allowed hear its sad but now I understand how things are.
Being polite costs nothing and please try to bring positive vibes.
🐷💖
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While I do perfectly understand and have related a similar message before, I no longer agree with it in its entirety. Not after some of the behaviour I have seen endorsed.
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A level of decorum needs to be demonstrated though.
Most claiming they’re providing constructive criticism are outright attacking. Or it’s just vile vitriol.
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Personally, I´d also appreciate the oppurtunity to criticise certain things, but ultimately I´d be banned for that. Although I phrased it as vaguely as possible as not to violate the naming and shaming rule, this post refers to a specific set of circumstances which I can not specify any further.
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Let me put it this way. In my line of work, I´ve had to rather strongly bring people to back down and not push things even when they were in the right. In the past, I´ve worked with people that can´t be argued with. They will take any oppurtunity to hurt and abuse people in extreme ways. So in order for them not to get hurt unneccessarily bad it was the better deal to just leave it be.
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I just want to clarify something: people tend to get very passionate about their opinion and about their words, which is fine, but the issues start when this line gets crossed and they fall into insulting.
Constructive criticism is completely fine, but insults and personal attacks are not, and this is where the misconception starts: we do not punish people for their opinion or their criticism, but at the same time we cannot ignore people purposely insulting while explaining their position.
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Thanks. In theory, you are right of course, and this is not neccessarily directed towards you. Recent events lead me to believe otherwise when it comes to practice, though.
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Which translates to "The ones with power can be bullies, so keep your head down." I disagree with that. Keeping your head down is the worst thing you can do.
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Keep in mind you only see part of the truth, people don't get "surprisingly banned", they break the rules a certain amount of times before that happens, or they don't get banned for nothing, sometimes they omit part of the truth to make it look like they are in the right.
Also harsher punishments we apply don't usually come from a decision of a single person, there's a thought process behind and there's a discussion in the team to decide if it's the right call or not.
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This part of the forum is a complaint zone so really no other community feel good aspect to fall back on other than the circlejerk thread. Next we'll have 5000 page "post a picture of yourself" threads and still no ancillary threads to the complaint threads.
I guess community fueled events would be a start like Play a Specific Killer Day or something.
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See, you´d be the one unconscious with a set of broken bones in an alley if you´d argue like that with those people I was refferring to, achieving nothing but that, but I digress.
It´s about what you deem more important. Being able to participate in the community or voicing your concerns about certain things. Of course you can make up your own mind about that.
Let´s also not forget that this is a gaming community and nothing political. I understand your POV but not everything is worth fighting tooth and nails for.
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Forums are a bit outdated part of the internet and they're hard to keep peaceful and even. Additionally, people can't just be 100% objective, they will always have preferences and dislikes, although I agree with you that In and Outside of this forums BHVR needs to do something with all of the influential figures breaking basic rules...
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Well I certainly appreciate your defense of the MO in case of rule violations. It may be time to open a discussion among your team about the image certain things portray, though. Apparently many people are very upset with the behavior of certain people and them apparently getting away with it scott free, something that a lot of people would imagine would not apply to themselves.
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Just going to bring up some counters with some of the statement you said.
Please, don´t assume that everyone is subject to the same rules and standards. We as customers are just guests here in the forum, for example.
Nobody (from what I've seen) is expecting everyone to be under the same rules. However, what we are expecting in a community is ruled depending on your status. EG: If somebody who has no correlation to the game is toxic, then it's not a massive issue. However, lets say, a fog whisperer is heavily toxic, then that's an issue. They should not be promoting a toxic playstyle to the community and people entering the game period. ESPECIALLY since to be a FW, you need to have a overall welcoming attitude.
(Taken from the DBD site):
Some are free to break the rules of DBD. They are also free to act in a toxic way, to hurt others and to get them banned, unpenalised as they please.
Why should they especially considering their status and what they hold to the game? and when these "rules" are made by BHVR themselves? Same example, if a fog whisperer is openly being toxic, why should they stay a fog whisperer when they clearly are having a negative impact on the community? Easy answer: they shouldn't.
There is nothing you can do about it. You may dislike it, but you may not bring it up if you want to continue being part of the community.
We should be able to bring it up as constructive criticism, as I have here. I have not crossed the line of insulting or name and shaming. I have simply brought up current issues while abiding by forum rules. This is constructive, and if this post get's me banned despite me breaking no rules, then we have another issue.
(Just as an EDIT: I understand that people are crossing lines, by insulting, I haven't done this, and I have tried to get across what people are trying to say in a constructive manner.)
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This is just a friendly reminder to avoid any naming and shaming per our rules and be respectful. We do not outright ban people unless there is a escalation already going on or they have broken the rules that are permanent bans. If you check out the rules, we do have a section that are instant permanent bans.
If you want criticism to be heard, being rude, condescending and insulting about it won't help the cause.
We won't be discussing bans publicly. This goes against what we stand for and it is to protect the users that have been affected by this. If they want to talk about this on their own platforms, then they can, but not here. The same goes for others trying to discuss them - the person might not want this to be done. Privacy of the user is important to us.
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Ideally, community members should be held accountable by the same basic rules. Do X, get Y as a result. It´s rooted in a fundamental sense of fairness, which I think is the cause for a lot of frustration.
The apparent inaction in the face of, for example, toxic behavior and exploiting loopholes to avoid the DC penalty with alledgedly an official being present provides the image that rules apply to some, but not others. Hence I draw the conclusion that specific people do not have to follow the rules. I can´t develop any further here without giving too much detail (which I propaby already did anyways) though.
Your supposed civil criticism of the issue has been brought up before and was swiftly removed. The case I´m refferring to may or may not be subject to bias which further complicates things.
I agree with you that FWs ideally should have to meet certain expectations (which in theory they have to), yet there are examples where they don´t meet those and they keep their status. There you have some examples of not-following rules by BHVR without consequences.
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"Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone..."
Well, I'm not without sin in the context of this thread, far from it. I've had the Moderators warn me (rightfully so) and they have been kind enough to correct my worst trespasses. I believe in good sportsmanship, and I also believe in civilized discourse. I am genuinely embarrassed when I fall short. I think I need to correct a few misconceptions about what civilized discourse means, however, because I think the insanity of modern times has distorted things.
- I don't have to respect your opinion or your beliefs. I merely need to respect your right to have them. This is a significant difference that seems lost on many people. They see disagreement as a personal attack. Some people have taken their right to free speech to mean that their speech is equally valid. It is not.
- Passion is not a substitute for evidence. It doesn't matter how much you believe in things or how much your feelings are going to be hurt if we don't share your opinion; that is not evidence to support your cause.
- Personal attacks are not evidence. They add nothing to your argument. They are, in fact, one of the many fallacies. Ad Hominem is the name of this logical fallacy, and it is probably the most common one found on the Forum.
I could go on and on about fallacies, and perhaps one day I will, but I think we have hit the biggest one relevant to this thread. Instead, I want to give an example of the difference between respecting the speaker, while not having to respect his/her idiotic speech.
I sat on a committee once where we had to vote to grant permits to anyone wanting to do a parade, protest, etc. downtown in a specific area. Basically, we controlled the calendar, and we could prevent any such event we wanted simply by granting the permits in the order we saw fit, until the calendar was full. It gave us veto power. The rules of the committee were such that it took a unanimous vote to send anyone to the bottom of the line rather than in the order they applied. I'm sure you can see how this works out in most cases. I wasn't a big fan of the process but ninety-nine times out of a hundred we simply granted permits in the order they came. We were a pretty progressive group in a pretty progressive State.
One day we had a White Power group, basically some hideous combination of the Clan and Neo-Nazis, petition for their right to do a protest there. We voted and to the surprise of my peers I didn't make it unanimous. They asked me WHY would you want to let them go out there. I said, "I respect their right to free speech." I also said, that I would be (and did) getting together a counter-protest to stand out there and take a stand against it. In the end, over six hundred counter-protesters showed up to voice our disgust against the six Clan/Neo-Nazi types that showed up, took the lay of the land and decided after fifteen minutes that our town was not the best place to sell their bile or brand.
We were NOT respectful of their beliefs. We voiced exactly what we thought of them. My point is that we disrespected the hell out of their beliefs, tore them apart and laid them out for the crows. Not all beliefs are valid or worthy of respect. What is important is that we respected their right to have said beliefs. Do you see the fine line I'm drawing in the sand?
Now, let's get back to fun stuff. DbD is a GAME and the things which happen in it, as well as any injustices or opinions around it, are not worthy of the kind of angst and passion they get. Seriously, we have people screaming about how their rights and money are being stolen over a game. With all the real injustices in the world, I think a game which you choose to play (and had to agree to the terms to do it) and can walk away from at any time is not worthy of the angst. I actually get a little annoyed seeing people getting upset about THIS when I can look out the window and watch the news. THIS is where you spend your time and something worthy of venting indignation about?
All that being said, I think it is fine to give opinions here, vent your passions, and engage in debate. I just think ALL of us need to work a lot harder (remember I too have sinned) at doing it without engaging in logical fallacies. I think we can, with a little effort, tear apart the beliefs and arguments of those we are talking with without attacking them personally. I think it is even possible <GASP> to be friends with people whom you disagree with. I have many. I hope to have more.
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I wish people would just stop talking about these things. We're losing too many of us. I'm so sad.
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Sometimes you guys get in your feelings and overreact by issuing punishments some people didn't deserve simply because the mod didn't agree with what was said , I've saw other people complain about the same thing before , I'm not saying you do this but it is a problem in your team and some of you shouldn't have the authority if you can't use it properly
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I agree with this sentiment also, as I think negative feedback loops are destructive to communities. I've often said I don't see the point of having the Forum. :)
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I used to work with a guy who was i shall say slightly crazy lol. Actually he waa just very opinionated amd disagreed with management constantly.
He voiced his complaints and argued about everything. And such he was ignored or punished. He was never fired and he retired after close to 40 years.
Talking to my boss one day, a man who seemed to do everything in his power to make the complainer miserable, and he told me that he fully agreed with almost every one of the complainer's....complaints? But that his attitude was so bad it was immediate walls up and argument.
I bring this up mainly to say that words have meaning but so does inflection. Complainer guy would have been much more successful if he would have apporached with a different manner.
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one way to say that is " if the devs do something I disagree with, I believe it is our right to post constructive feedback as to why the changes are disruptive to the game"
However people here just just complain and don't add value/suggestions and their posts don't really offer anything of value, but muddy the waters.
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My strategy is being too dumb to realize I'm stuck in the hill glitch and thinking I'm just a god tier gamer. And what a great post <3!! We are all human-- We want to have fun playing the game, and the devs hope for the same but have to work hard for our approval. I personally just enjoy, well, everything in the game! I sometimes stand in a corner to see the details of Meg's face and also how the light reflects off my charms because I have the brain of a baby and oOoOoOOh sHinYY. Anyways, staying civil and positive is key!! It's been hard even for me, especially with so many less than lovely matches, but I gotta remember that we are all here to play a game that people work hard on for us! So, to players: Good luck in your next matches and have fun! And for the mods/employees: Thank you for everything, and don't stress too much :)!
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It's so sad when you see people breaking the rules and the same people who should be censuring them seem to be condoning behavior that would be unacceptable from the general playerbase.
It's even more distressing when you don't know how to go up the food chain to report the violations/double standards of the moderators. Or if their overseers would even care.
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*ixnay on mentioning things mods are doing*
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emotions are extreme at times
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I hate to burst your bubble, but that's untrue. The nature of the gaming community being apolitical that is. There's no such thing as apolitical. The issues discussed here falls into political all the time, class inequality, corporate greed, and addiction. You can't discuss the Behavior's direction without it being divorced from politics because the very nature of these discussions are political. Censorship definitely falls in line of the political.
I'd say the future of a game we love is worth fighting tooth and nails for, otherwise...we could just play something else. I hear CIV 5 is nice.
Closing your eyes and wishing the unpleasantness away will solve nothing. Positivity is nice, but not when it's faux
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Anyone else have no idea what's going on or is it just me
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Gamers are gamers :/
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"You may dislike it, but you may not want to bring it up if you want to continue being part of this community"
Thos is the most painful part of this whole post. It's like we're in some fascist regime.
"You may not want to persecute the jews but you may have to if you want to be part of our community."
This is extreme hyperbole ofcourse but it's the same principle. Both cases are bad (yes one more so than the other) and we're just supposed to take it and eat the ######### they serve us.
BHVR needs to get their ######### together instead of silencing those who actually care enough about this community to weed out the toxic shits in high places risking bans. You making this post and the comments made say a lot about the community itself and the blind eyes people turn toward the behaviour of its management.
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This is not some a fascist regime. This is a private club. You agreed to the terms (as did everyone else) when you signed up to this Forum. Nobody is impinging on your free speech. You are free to go form your OWN club, put up your own forum, and set your own rules. Comparing this situation, a forum (which people join of their own free will, agree to the rules, and can leave at any time) to real world persecution is deeply offensive. The fact that you don't even understand the depth of what you just implied over something that is not only apples and oranges, but also unimportant, demonstrates a total lack of social skills and/or understanding of basic ethics.
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Did you even read my post? Because it literally stated its was hyperbole and i emphasised it multiple times. This is a forum for a game where people can discuss stuff. People are getting banned ingame for things they say that the devs/mods dislike. Not only that the "ambassadors" of this game (fogwhisperers) bait people into saying ######### to get them banned by their CM friends while being granted immunity for doing the same thing because they are buddies with the higher ups. The arguement that "this is how the world works" which this post tries to make clear is so weak. Forums are made to both compliment or criticise the devs for decisions they make and have discussions about it. If they are going to ban everyone who doesn't shill for this game or has some valid criticism about the community and the state it's in due to community managers endorcing certain behaviour my point still stands. Yes I joined the forums and agreed to certain terms but if devs wont deal with concerns voiced on a platform that is literally there for that there is no point in this at all. Not being able to voice your opinion in fear of getting banned from a community of a game you still play and are a part of is opression 101.
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And also private clubs require an invitation from members of said group, THIS is a PUBLIC forum.
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Using offensive hyperbole and then saying you recognize it is hyperbole does NOT excuse the poor behavior. That is like calling someone a racial epithet and then just saying, "just joking," or saying something obnoxious and adding a smiley face to try and cover your tracks if you are called on it. The Forum has rules. Nobody forces you to stay on this Forum. You agreed to said rules. If you don't like them, you can leave. Do not equate this to real world persecution. It offensive beyond words.
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No, this isn't a "public" forum. There are posted rules and you had to agree to them to be approved to be in here.
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I dont equate, I merely argue the principles are the same. And this is a public forum, not some high end private club you are a part of. I have not yet broken any rules and my analogy is not offensive in the slightest. Your analogy however is wrong. I did not insult a community and then say haha JK, I presented an extreme example of the same thing happening here. The principle stands be it extreme or not and using said arguement is not offensive in the slightest. Its not apples and oranges in the grand scheme of all of this. Yes, no one is getting physically harmed or even mentally but they are getting silenced. I could make a different analogy and say this is like living in a communist country where going against the people in power be it just or unjust will get you a trip to jail either way.
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No they are not. I'm not going to get the rhetorical sledgehammer out yet, but I am going to demonstrate WHY they are not the least bit the same. If you continue after I demonstrate this, then I will feel compelled to give you a proper lesson and at length. Your hyperbole inference basically discussed the persecution of the Jews (one would assume in Nazi Germany but anywhere would work) and implied that people didn't stand up to it because if they did they would be punished or affect their ability to remain in that community.
These are not the same because:
- Living in a town or country where you are born, raised, and your entire life is located is not the same as just some Forum where you one day chose to sign in (and agreed to abide by their rules) on a whim. One is not a choice, the other is a choice.
- Comparing enforcing the rules of the Forum to the persecution of Jews is tantamount to calling our Moderators murdering Nazis. The people being persecuted in your deeply offensive hyperbole never agreed to any rules. They never got a say. The people persecuting them are monsters. People who join this Forum did agree to the rules and thus these are apples and oranges.
I have left my own ethnic heritage out of this discussion, but I'm happy to bring it in and really get deep down on why this is horrific. Do you care to continue or are you willing to let this lie.
Post edited by Moundshroud on0 -
You lost the argument and all self respect the moment you started down this path in your previous posts. You have now demonstrated that you have no understanding of ethics or human decency. You seem incapable of distinguishing between people making a willing choice and agreeing (by formal contract) to abide by certain rules, and those who simply get persecuted for being born with a certain name, ethnic heritage, religious beliefs, and so on. The people being persecuted never signed any contracts. They didn't opt in. They are victims; you (and anyone else who chooses to break the rules of this Forum) are not. You diminish and demean the suffering of people actually undergoing persecution by trying to infer that the Moderators enforcing the rules here in anyway equates. How can you not understand this?
By all means, continue doing what you are doing. I expect you will get banned. There is literally nothing else I can say that makes you look worse and more tone deaf than you have done yourself. By all means, please continue to equate being shown the door to the Forum with Concentration Camps.
Post edited by Rizzo on0 -
The difference in our arguements is the fact that you wish to focus on my hyperbole because in general it gives you the moral highground while I argue the issue at hand.
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@Herbalyte would you kindly edit you last post to remove the name and discussion of ban please I'm not disagree with you or trying to silence you I just really don't want this thread to be closed as it rises issues that need to be dealt with.
Thank you 🐷💖
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What do you mean? How do i do that?
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There is no issue at hand. There is only your offensive comments. This Forum has rules. Everyone could look them up before opting in. Everyone can look them up now. All of us who are approved to post here had to agree to abide by them. Some people are choosing not to do so. They get warned (usually a couple times)and finally banned. That isn't an issue. They agreed to a certain level of behavior, and failed to meet it. You appear to think there should be exceptions made. That isn't how this works.
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The fact of the matter is that there ARE exceptions being made. What use are rules if ambassadors and CM's don't have to live by the same rules? That's the reason of this whole debacle, the fact that some people seem to be above the law.
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I wish we could talk about certain stuff *cough*bans*cough, but the unfortunate truth is that we can't, and theres likely not a way to do so on here. So unfortunately it appears some people must realize when to bend the knee, as depressing as that is.
Post edited by SCP_FOR_DBD on4 -
I can't speak to that because I don't know if anyone gets special treatment or not. I suspect you don't really know either, but assume or want to believe it. But you know what, it doesn't matter one bit. The rules we AGREED to abide by don't say anything about their enforcement. They only talk about OUR behavior. So the rest of it is MOOT. They only thing you have to ask yourself is:
- Did anyone force you to join this Forum? No? Ok; so you are CHOOSING to be here.
- Did anyone force you to agree to the rules? No? You chose to do it to get in here? Well, I guess that is on you.
- Does that agreement you agreed to indicate you get say? Does it guarantee adjudication? No? Why do you think you do then?
This is a black and white issue, open and shut. It doesn't matter why anyone is upset or outraged. It doesn't matter if their feelings are justified or not. We agreed to behave in a certain way. You (and anyone else) who feels this subject is worthy of some kind of protest or whatnot can (at anytime) go put up a Forum, a web page, stream videos, and complain about whatever you want to complain about however you like. How you do it here, however, requires you abide by the rules that YOU agreed to abide by. How is this a difficult concept?
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DBD mods seem pretty talented politicians with skills to solve conflicts using beautiful words and reasonable-like arguments. This does not mean they are always right with a sole truth; it means they have great abilities to convince customers and accept the mods' actions.
I also believe mods are too easily triggered lately using way too firm hand showing a big ego and ban power, to abort possible revolutions among angry customers that sometimes frustrated, insult - in 2020 insults still exist to describe ideas as part of the freedom of speech.
What the customers don't like is the recurring issues not addressed. We want to have a pleasant gaming experience and we do not want an unnecessary war in the forums against the mods, perhaps both sides are more easy triggered nowadays due to the covid situation...
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@TheClownIsKing 100% agree with you.
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We asked many times on this thread to remain civil and respectful, to avoid talking about warns and bans, especially if those do not involve you, however people still decided to go down that path and even to the point of comparing a videogame forum to Germany during the Nazism.
For these reasons we decided to close the thread.
And I want to be perfectly clear here: we don't mind constructive criticism, if anything it's welcomed, but you should never resort to analogies like that to prove your point, that's deeply disrespectful, not towards us, but towards those who suffered during those times, and you are just demeaning what they have gone through.
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