Why I disagree with the developer's opinion on bloodlust.
In their most recent QnA stream, Ethan argues how that killer should exhibit pressure onto the survivor by gaining movement speed throughout the chase. I find this argument to be pretty weak. A survivor should not be punished by outmaneuvering the killer in a chase. If the killer is being out-skilled then they should not be rewarded with a compensation speed boost to make up for their misplays. If you as the killer is chasing a survivor for extended period of time, then it is more smart/efficient to leave that survivor to pressure others that are on generators. My argument to the devs is that as the killer there are other ways to exhibit pressure around the map than just giving killers a free and undeserved movement speed boost. This discourages killers to play better and instead fall back on a buff that they will inevitably get. This also makes those unsafe pallet 50/50 mind games much less fun. Thanks to bloodlust, the killer is able to down the survivor not because they won the mind game, but because they didn't have to break the pallet and bloodlust passively allowed them to get the cheeky hit on the survivor because suddenly they can move much faster. This meant that it didn't matter how well the survivor played the mind game and that the killer was eventually going to catch up to you with their bloodlust no matter what.
Edit: Many seem to think bloodlust should be removed without any changes to strong tiles. I want the removal of bloodlust AND less strong pallets, but more (unsafe) pallets overall around the map.
Tofu explains this very well in his most recent video, so if you have time please give it a watch.
Comments
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What if it's not a misplay on the Killer and it's based on that loop? What if all 4 Survivors went to that same loop or set up tiles that makes them untouchable? Why should the Killer have to mind game something like that 100% of the time when all it takes for the Survivor is to just run that same pattern over and over until 1) pallet breaks, 2) entity blocks vault, or 3) Survivor someone makes a mistake between tiles? Now for Killers like Huntress, DeathSlinger, or anyone who can quickly close that gap, it's not much of an issue. But what about M1 Killers like Trapper, Wraith, or Pig? It's smart to drop chase when it goes too long for different prey but that isn't always the case. Especially if all Survivors are on the same skill level.
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Survivors get BT SB DH DS IW Adrenaline all to nullify their mistakes, why do you have a double standard for killers?
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Except a lot of the loops don't really have mind game potential. Survivors have been heavily against making loops taller in a way that you cannot see the killer to get mind game potential. Such as pallets between two rocks. L wall loop is also good example of a loop which you CAN mind game.
Bloodlust was added to punish survivors who abuse certain strong loops, RNG is still horrible sometimes when it can spawn shack window facing - jungle gym window with long wall. These kinda loops are nearly infinites for good survivors and bloodlust helps to defeat them, and it still wastes a lot of time.
Examples like this https://youtu.be/NGcVXsOC_Zk?t=110
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I am hoping that the devs will continue look at strong tiles that link/synergize together well and the next map update (nowhere perfect) is a step towards the right direction. Killers should capitalize on survivor mistakes, but survivors should also be able to capitalize on killer mistakes. Except killers get a compensation speed buff which I disagree on.
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You are right a lot of loops don't have mind game potential at the moment which I wish they did. Most pallet loops are still incredibly strong such as long crates, cars, and jungle gyms. If you watch Tofu's video, he proposes an idea where they lessen the amount of strong loop tiles and more 50/50 mind game tiles. But for that to happen, bloodlust also needs to go.
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If every map with multiple safe loops get a massive nerf we can talk about removing bloodlust. Ever played on ormond? Or thompsob house? Yeah thats why.
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Bloodlust was a bandaid to counter infinite loops, god loops, and survivors exploiting their smaller hit boxes to increase chase duration by running around objects.
I'd rather them reduce chase times overall by fixing the actual problem to make a killer catching a survivor based on skill and decision making. Bloodlust can be baked into a talent for those who need it.
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please just stop,all I can hear is just another whiny survivor,if devs actually listened to survivors nonsense this game would be ruined in less than a day,bloodlust have been in the game forever and its not gonna change just because you're a survivor main and want all the unfair advantages in the world,you people are so irritating
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Yeah Bloodlust is an awful mechanic. But some maps are even more awful.
I think Bloodlust should absolutely go away in the future, but we need time to see how the map changes end up working, while also fixing some maps that were missing in the last update. You can't drop a million different changes at once, like they explained in the stream. You need to make changes gradually to be able to see what effect they have, while also keeping the ability to observe which changes produce which results.
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Because if Killer's play their role entirely correctly they shouldn't be rewarded?
Did you forget that it's another person who is playing Killer? Did you forget that the Killer shouldn't be a threat to you - he IS a threat to you.
In a horror movie the survivor doesn't run away from the Killer with the idea "I'm just going to keep him chasing me forever" the victim is running from the killer with the idea "I am scared. I got to get away. I got to hide. Someone come save me".
I think bloodlust should stay indeffiently and be improved on. You're not supposed to be able to out run the Killer forever. It's not that kind of game.
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Don't recent updates and maps have more mindgame potential? This feels like the devs' general direction and I'm definitely not against it, especially not hawkins cause boy that's a fine map.
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Except, as a survivor, you're never supposed to always be at an advantage against the Killer even if you're playing optimally 100% of the time. I see how it can be frustrating to have looped the Killer for a long time and still have them catch up to you, but that's the point.
They're the power role, they're SUPPOSED to catch you. You're the prey, you're supposed to waste the killer's time for as long as possible but not forever.
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Ignoring the fact that that's not what bloodlust does because it goes away when you get stunned lol
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What is bloodlust effect then Lord of this game? For me a speed boost when in chase for more than 40 seconds seems like a "I'll eventually catch you no matter what", and this is the intended reason behind Bloodlust. One of the Devs even said something like "a metaphor for the inevitability of death".
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They're perks, bloodlust is built in. Doubt anyone would complain if bloodlust was a perk.
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I agree, take my vote up.
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I just think it's weird that it's supposed to make the killer scarier but does almost nothing against actual chase strings and instead incentivises the killer running around the same tile over and over letting the survivors get max value from it. Seems redundant and near useless from a competitive perspective and lore perspective.
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The problem with Bloodlust is that it's still needed on more than half the maps. And, in fact, if OhTofu's vision of pallets comes to pass, will be needed more than ever because there is currently no punishment for dropping pallets super early. "Oh, no, you got rid of a pallet" doesn't apply if playing ultra safe is as rewarded as it currently is. Imagine if there were an average of 20 on a map. Who cares if you can play around it after its thrown when the survivor runs to the next loop quicker that you (after faking the break, btw) and does the same damn thing OVER and OVER again. I already get my arse kicked by teams that play safe and do gens because there's no way to catch them because they don't even need to loop/play maze tiles. Sure, get rid of Bloodlust if
1) all maps magically become balanced
2) pallet camping gets punished
Otherwise killers need a way to mindlessly chase, just like survivors have a way to mindlessly run. That 5 percent speed boost for 1 second between pallets can mean the difference between eating another one and getting a hit.
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Bloodlust sucks, it's not even good, I can't for the life of me figure out why survivor players find it so bad, as if it isn't super simple to get rid of or avoid in the first place. It's as simple as keeping time, knowing how to block LOS, and actually doing well at mind games.
If you're at a loop where the killer can maintain LOS on you AND get downed by it, that is completely your fault. Not to mention there's no real way of you even knowing you got BL'd, unless you know you're playing the wrong way or you were just holding forward on joystick (W) forever.
Seriously, can anyone even present an example that isn't based on a complete misplay?
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I like how there are a lot of people saying "When God loops are removed/strong interconnecting tiles are nerfed" like the ptb hasn't been out for ~2 weeks now. Like, seriously? You name check Thompson and Ormond like they aren't being reworked next patch.
Op, I agree. Bloodlust is a bad mechanic theoretically, or will be after this new update. Personally I don't think it should be flat-out removed, but instead tweaked significantly. I don't know how, but I feel like removing it flat-out would be a bad idea.
As for your idea of map balance, couldn't agree more. It rewards good survivors and punishes bad ones, exactly what we need.
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Lore perspective makes total sense, the Entity feeds on the fear of Survivors and loves to extend the suffering of both parts, if the Survivor is taking too long to be downed the Entity gives a little boost to confirm that the Killer can down the guy. Competitive perspective is like a notification telling you "too long in a chase better switch targets" can be misunderstood by some Players but that's their fault and will most likely learn next time to try something different.
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Good points, I just felt the lore perspective was lacking because of its actual utility. If BL got some touch-ups to affect chases more I think it would be a nice QoL change for killers.
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Nothing is wrong with bloodlust. It’s a cool and needed mechanic that is in the game for like 3+ years. Nobody gonna nerf it just because some whiny ass survivor mains have nothing else to complain about the moment. Why won’t you just make another one of those cringe senseless nerf NOED threads? Neither leads anywhere anyway. If there is any change that should be made to the game than it’s fixing maps, gens, broken survivor perks. And seems like the devs are going down in that path this time.
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yeah lets get rid of bloodlust, lets also remove windows being blocked during chase. we might as well make it so killer cant destroy pallets too. that way rly good survs can loop the killer without being punished
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It would be nice if the map balance was like this. The current designs appear to be very straightforward and restrictive so they're easier to randomize, which is disappointing as I'm sure many would prefer chases be skill based and fun rather than a bit more random.
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That's not at all what Ethan said about bloodlust. What he said was that ultimately DbD is about killers killing survivors, and that it shouldn't be possible to extend chases indefinitely. He went on to say that if a survivor is running a killer long enough that they gain full bloodlust, the survivors are likely going to win that match. They don't find bloodlust to be overly impactful in the outcome of matches.
The community is thinking about the survivor experience differently than the devs are. People often think about "my survival" and not the overall survival rate of the trial. Yes, a killer can conceivably gain bloodlust 3 and down and down a survivor in spite of the survivor playing everything correctly. I would almost guarantee one of two things at that point: multiple survivors are going to escape/have already escaped, or there have already been people sacrificed and a killer is just cleaning up. Yes, YOU might get downed due to bloodlust, but it's not determining the outcome of the trial overall. It's a result, not a cause.
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It's a horror game dude.
We're talking about supernatural psycho killers here.
It would be weird if they didn't have a speed boost.
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If bloodlust isn't overly impactful then there's no reason to keep it from a balance perspective. ix-nay the esults-ray
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I'm sorry you want the immortal killing machine to simultaneously fight 4 people simultaneously but you want him to be easily defeated by the ability to walk around a car repeatedly?
Get out.
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what many dont appear to understand is, that you are not supposed to win a chase against the killer.
safe loops turn unsafe, bloodlust turns the killer into more of a threat the longer the chase goes on and the resources are limited.
pallets and windows arent ment to be used as looping spots the killer cant touch you on until the game is over, they are ment to break LoS during chases and allow the Survivor to escape the killer and sneak away - or stall the inevitable demise that comes uppon them a little longer.
in the end, skill during a chase is determined by two possible scenarios: A: you escape the chase and the killer needs to look for a new victim (best possible outcome), or B: you stall your downfall for as long as possible. the later is the most common one, of course, yet some seem to think they could take the killer in chases and just loop them until the game is over - because that used to be possible. the same players are now the most upset ones when the game shifts into a direction where this is no longer possible.
a Survivor should never be able to win a 1v1 against the killer, unless there is a big skill difference between them.
this is a 4v1 game, just because you as a single person can not loop the killer until all gens are done does not mean the game is unbalanced. you are supposed to work together as a team to beat the killer after all, not have one guy distract him all game and everyone else just doing gens and leave.
TL;DR: 1v1 scenarios should always end up in a killers victory. you as an individual not being able to loop the killer until 3 or so gens are done does not make the game unbalanced. the killer is supposed to handle 4 survivors at the same time after all, so it would only make sense to have each survivor equal roughly one fourth of the killers actual strength (a bit more might be healthier). that does include them not being able to stall out a hook for as long as they currently can.
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Y should the killer get punished for strong loops. Not every loop is mind game able. The simple loops would be strong loops without blood lust like y r people considering this?
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It looks like the amount of trolls in these forums doubled in the past weeks. It's hard to have an actual discussion nowadays.
Devs said a lot of questionable stuff in this Q&A. The reason for not removing bloodlust doesn't make much sense, they don't want skillful gameplay I suppose and it's basically confirmed now that the devs view DBD as a competitive game LMAO.
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Oh my that did give me a good laugh
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Simple, get rid of bloodlust AND overly strong pallets. Or just... break the pallet? It takes like 2 seconds to do, and gets rid of one more resource for the survivors. I’m happy to have a stupid dweet throw every pallet in a chase, just makes late game easier
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I'm hoping the dead zones are something the devs plan to fix. Was there any acknowledgement in the Q&A?
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They answered a question about it but I don't think they understood it correctly. They just said that they were going to fix them eventually. It's like they aren't even aware that they added most of them with the recent map changes.
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That's an oof
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In the end the killer catching the survivor needs to be in a way inevitable. Bloodlust isn't enough until multiple stacks to prevent a survivor from lasting long enough to have won the game at that point. Winning the game is the reward for a long loop as is making the killer break off for easier prey. If survivors could run forever, litterally, then there would really only ever be one outcome to a match.
Catching you doesn't win the game for the killer, catching everyone in the match over and over and over again wins the match. If every chase could take the whole match it'd complete break the multi catch system.
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Survivors should not be punished for doing well in a chase. It's a stupid mechanic. Imagine if a built in game mechanic gave a health state to a survivor that was put into the dying state too quickly. While good killers usually don't need it, it's basically uncounterable and good killers can use it to down a survivor in unfair situations when they should break a pallet (EGC, multiple survivors incapacitated, tunneling one person they want to kill ect).
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Personally, I think the speed boost from bloodlust should remain, but be accompanied by an equivalent debuff like a progressively narrowing FOV or tunnel vision effect that would highlight how the killer is really obsessed by the survivor he's chasing, and thus losing focus of their surroundings?
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Why are you letting the killer outplay you by getting bloodlust? Just drop a freaking pallet and loop it till he kicks it, this isnt rocket science. I cant even remember the last time i got to bloodlust 2.
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This 100%
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Bloodlust has no place in this game apart from bandaid-fixing infinites. When they're done with map reworks, it can go aswell. Its an antiskill mechanic, but necessary for those windows.
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I agree with the person who said the killer is in the power position. I actually play both killer and survivor (poorly).
I look at the bloodlust mechanic not as a reward to the killer but a punishment to the survivor for not losing the killer quickly - you should be scared and trying to avoid the killer at all costs, not playing bugs bunny. If I'm chasing someone for too long, I just leave them as I assume they know they can keep away and the other survivors are working on objectives while I'm chasing for minutes at a time.
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We will see this weekend. It will be disabled. Maybe run the trapper perk lol
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