Bloodlust hurts new survivors and should be removed
I've seen several people make the argument that removing bloodlust hurts new killers, but what about new survivors? You don't understand loops, you basically just hide, and if you do get to a pallet, the killer can just bloodlust that survivor around the pallet to force a down.
Bloodlust is a hand holding killer mechanic that needs to go. This game requires snowballing as killer or survivor, but bloodlust prevents survivors from snowballing by preventing them from extending the chase beyond a point. That's not in the spirit of this game and it's completely one sided. If survivors are playing well they should be rewarded for it.
And what's more, at high ranks this doesn't affect killers at all because high rank killers don't use or need bloodlust. I see killers often argue that we shouldn't balance vs low ranks, if you really believe that than be consistent and say the same thing about killers. We shouldn't have a hand holding mechanic for new killers that exists for them to do a bit better when they haven't earned it.
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Well many have actually noted a couple of infinites that are now possible without bloodlust, mainly the asylum, the god bus on autohaven, and apparently killer shack when a hook is on the corner. Not to mention the hell that is the house of pain with a 110% speed killer.
If they stick with removing bloodlust then they will have to do some serious map rebalancing throughout every realm.
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I do agree with you that those should be addressed. But each of those would already cost you the game if you were to chase around them. Not much has changed.
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Bloodlust is a saving grace for killers who have to brute force loops that guarantee wasted time unless the survivor royally messes up on their pathing. There are so many unmindgameable loops in this game it's not even funny. You take bloodlust away, you discourage killers from doing many chases and encourage mass slugging and forcing 2nd stage, because that's the only way they're gonna be able to get those kills.
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There are only a few killers that have to brute force loops, the rest have their power that they can use.
Plague while in vile purge, Pig, Michael Meyers, Clown unless he has the chlorine add-on, Legion (when securing a down), and Oni before he gets blood.
You'll notice this list with the exception of Oni, is basically the list of weak killers in this game. So, I will agree that this change makes killers with weak chase powers weaker, however, that's a problem with those killers and that is not enough to justify the bloodlust mechanic. Bloodlust should be removed and these killers may need changes to their kit to make them able to use their power more effectively in a chase.
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I guess the counter point is that bloodlust doesn't punish new survivors the same way the lack of it punishes new killers.
Playing stealthy is a perfectly good way to play the game and can be a lot of fun. Survivor gameplay doesn't revolve around the chase, its a big part but you can stealth around and avoid the killer, get saves do gens, hide in their TR and not get spotted.
There is a myriad of survivor gameplay that bloodlust has no effect on and you can still escape or "win" without ever really being effected by it.
Killer gameplay revolves around the chase, making bloodlust infinitely more valuable to a new killer especially when paired with higher ranks and more experienced survivors through bad match making.
The fact that time management is also infinitely more valuable to killers, and now you have new killers who may not be great at looping even on non infinites or unsafe pallets that get destroyed and then quit.
This game needs both killers and survivors but how often do you see posts by people saying "I'm to scared to play survivor", its typically the other way around, "I'm to scared to play killer" which is nuts because in a survival horror game the survivors should be scared of the killers not the other way around.
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I think you're missing trapper and billy.
Others that also took a bit of a hit are Freddie, Wraith, Huntress, Ghostface, demo and hag.
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Trapper can trap the loops where bloodlust would be considered a problem. That's why he isn't listed. Billy has a 1 shot down and a can break pallets faster with his chainsaw and is very good with mindgames around pallets, he shouldn't need bloodlust. Freddie has pools of blood or fake pallets, Wraith can land easy hits with stealth and shouldn't be spending time around a strong loop, huntress is extremely strong at many tiles that would generally lead to bloodlust becoming active like shack, Demo is a weak killer, however, his shred is the strongest part of his kit and that is very strong at many tiles, and hag, if you're chasing with hag you're playing hag wrong.
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Your counter argument is the strongest argument that I've seen so far. I concede that you have a point. However, I don't think lack of bloodlust is a punishment so much as a reward for playing badly.
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I know trapper can trap loops. It doesn't change the fact that he does still sometimes need to brute force things with blood lust. Billy against decent survivors isn't always going to be able to chainsaw all his problems away and his mind games are about as good as any other killer.
As for the others, I put them separately cuz they are hit by the removal of bloodlust but the difference isn't as bad as the other killers listed but it'll still have an effect on them. My bad if I didn't make it clear enough and you kinda wasted your time.
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With the exception of Nurse, all killers at some point and time have to brute force a loop. And I get that some setups are incredibly strong. However, I agree with the development team that with the exception of a few known tiles. Bloodlust is simply no longer needed for killers. This is clear to see because strong killer players can have games where bloodlust never triggers throughout the whole match. If strong killers are playing without it's time for weaker/newer killers to take off their training wheels and learn to play without it. And for the killers that become significantly worse, some base kit changes may be needed.
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Here's the thing that I'm worried about the removal of bloodlust. It disincentivizes actual chases with killers and I dunno if that's something I'd want. Killers will be more likely to mind game or just use killers that don't need to worry as much with chases.
You've also brought up a point that I didn't think of. It makes it easier for potatoes to rise through the ranks to red ranks who don't really need to learn how to do a chase. Once they reach higher ranks and they need to deal with mind games or strong killers they'll collapse.
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I never made that point, so you may need to reread my comments. That's dishonest and a bit rude.
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I don't think about it in terms of newer players as they will struggle a lot regardless, that's just the nature of being new. No one, or at least no one decent, relies on bloodlust for hits as that's a losing move (see paragraph 4).
Really its just that the map design is have much survivor favored aspects and that's with bloodlust still in. With it removed there are a lot of too safe/strong structures and loops (funbus, house of pain, cow tree, ect.) and maps where survivors running in a straight line take forever to just catch up to (midwitch, Mothers Dwelling, ect.). These were already a pain before, let alone now. Then we have the RNG aspect that can give you 14 pallets that are mostly safe with chainable tiles. It's more for the lack of map balance than for the sake of newer players from the way I see and understand it. If you get bad map RNG, hey here's BL. Oh you didn't? Ok it won't activate.
We also have to keep in mind the game is 4v1, we can't allow killers to take too long to get 1 down on 1 survivor if we want the game to continue to move away from being survivor favored and more towards balanced. Yes survivors should be rewarded for playing well, but that doesn't mean they should be able to string the killer along for multiple gens at a time. As others have stated as well, it will mostly by the already weak killers (so most of them) that will suffer with this change. Spirit and Nurse who don't care about BL will be fine.
I don't really see it as primarily hand holding since if you rely on bloodlust to get hits you're probably going to lose since you lose so much time (it takes 30 seconds for BL 2, and 45 for BL 3, and it goes away once you hit someone once among other things), and as I said earlier we can't let 1 survivor have too much sway when there's 4 that need to be downed potentially 3 times each. Just to reiterate, it's there for the bad map design that's still in the game. A decent killer will only get bloodlust when the structure demands it, and a bad one will still lose with it. Unless the survivors are playing very poorly of course and allowing the killer that much time.
If the map design was better or if killers were the stronger side, I could be all for it, but in DBD's current state I don't think its a good move.
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But it's a direct effect of what you're talking about. Scratch that. It's what you're talking about taken to it's conclusion. Take off the training wheel from the killers so newer survivors won't have to learn
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Yeah true, but there are a lot of elements in this game that reward or at least soften the effects of bad play some more pressing ones come to mind than bloodlust.
I'm alos gonna miss crutching out on it in a bad chase myself.
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While that is true, it is not a problem. Because they will just call certain killers op and wait for them to be nerfed. That worked well so far.
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Some killers desperately need to hit or down a survivor during the early game.
For example, the oni need a hit to use his ability, the pig need a down to start anything, literally, anything.
Without bloodlust, a survivor can loop a main building for a ridiculous amount of time, especially on hadoonfield, and on some loops on the farm. Those killer will need to either hit/down them while others are finishing like, 3 gens, or they should drop the chase and start a whole new one. Either way, they won't get what they need early on and the whole game will be just full of stress.
It's ridiculous, like...
A killer shouldn't tunnel or camp, they shouldn't get a little movement bonus even after a chase that earned enough time for other survivors to finish 2 or 3 gens.
'High rank killers don't need bloodlust.'
Well, the truth is, a high rank survivor will literally toy with a killer without bloodlust.
I don't care, though. I have the nurse and the spirit with mori offering anyways.
While survivors are enjoying teabagging the ghostface, wraith, and pig- while swfs are sharing every single thing happening with each other via voice chat- I'll be mori-ing them. If that's the game you want, that's the game you'll get.
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What will happen to a game that is completely comfortable for any new player or just an overall bad one? I mean, as they say, git gud
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Serious question - what percentage of players do you think know about those loops and will always run them flawlessly?
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I'm still on the fence about bloodlust but I think it hurts experienced survivors more than new ones, new ones will usually avoid chases, throw all pallets immediately and go down before bloodlust kicks in.
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Not all of them for sure, but every good survivor knows to run those loops even with bloodlust. The good ones are the ones that should really count when considering the balance of the game.
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there shouldn't be tiles that instantly lose you the game because you chase around them thats just bad map design
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Against new survivors, i can even down them as nurse with no blinks. They don't even know how to loop, so bloodlust will not even kick in as they go down very fast.
So.. not really. Bloodlust hurts new killers more as matchmaking frequently matches new killers to good survivors, and without bloodlust, killers don't have the slightest chance against them.
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I would counter this nonsense you spew with the fact that new survivors most often learn via swf, rather than solo play, so your argument is not only utterly ridiculous, but clearly biased, as well. It would be one thing if matchmaking was guaranteed, but even then, I've gone against people at rank reset that haven't played for a while, so their rank is lower but they still play like a much higher rank which can be very frustrating for new killers. in this sense something like bloodless is an absolute must have to keep new killers from being dissuaded from further play.
To further that point because matchmaking ISN'T a guarantee, even after the revamps, you still commonly get red and purple ranks as a low-range killer.
So no, it's not a hand holding gimmick, it's absolutely vital at both low and high ranks, depending on who you're playing and how you're playing and who you're playing against.
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^ This 1000%.
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Besides, handholding? Please. Where do you think Blendettes originated from? Low rank survivors needed to hide because they couldn't loop. Get a grip.
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