I keep seeing undying and ruin is op posts
Yet nobody wants to run small game or detectives hunch. It's used in most of the games, so wouldn't it makes sense to use one of those perks? People wanted a meta shift - well here it is. Or do you need those perk slots for ds, unbreakable, dead hard and deliverance?
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People do run those perks. It's not worth it. The problem isn't just finding totems.
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What is it then?
Edit: and if it's not worth it people should not be complaining
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People do. They also got maps. Undying practically replaces Thrill of the Hunt with multiple chances is the problem. It is a balance issue and defeats the purpose of ToTH existing. I imagine its not touched to encourage people to buy Blight DLC.
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I really don't understand the problem people have with it. It feels more like a 'win more' combo than it does one that helps you.
It does nothing if you can't apply pressure, and if you could apply pressure you probably didn't need the undying to get similar or same value
one of the perks literally just reveals those close to totems and recycles a hex with a 50% chance
If 50% of a killers loadout to have a 50% chance to have 1 hex perk stay longer than normal is OP boy do I have a lot of survivor perk combos to ban for you.
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Honestly, Ruin & undying will get nerfed as too good of a killer combos usually do. Yet survivor second chance perks stacking meta remains with little to no changes.
It'd be nice to see less used survivor perks buffed so they can see some meta play, hopefully less annoying compared to the current one.
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Toth has a completely different purpose. Its for protecting you totems and stacks that you've accumulated.
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Thrill of the Hunt's issue is that it never actually did anything.
Undying isn't overpowered its just the 2 main hex defence perks Thrill and Retribution are underpowered and always have been.
When was the last time Thrill/Retribution had an actual impact on any of your games?
If you can't remember any then instead of nerfing undying we should buff thrill and retribution so they have an actual use.
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Yes that's its purpose. Protecting the totems which should mean having aura reading built in. Undying doesn't need aura reading on top of multiple chances. Its not hard to understand. The fix to the issue is very clear, why ignore the obvious?
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To be fair, the other hex perk is guaranteed to last at least one totem longer.
Still, pretty annoying that devs consistently nerf perk synergy on killers but DS + Unbreakable is fine.
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People are lazy and just want to M1 for a 5 minute game and not do totems.
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They literally nerfed and reworked ds multiple times after people complained about it. You can't nerf unbreakable because how you would nerf that without making it garbage.
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Doing totems requires holding m1 u know right?
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I don't see an issue that needs fixing here.
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Small Game + Detectives Hunch are crap perks that waste 2 slots and all Survivors need to load it in each match for it to be effective so essentially that's 8 perk slots which could have been used for far better perks to even stand a chance against 2 perk slots.
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Regardless of how you or I feel individually. It is a meta shift and that is a good thing!
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Question. Why would you ever want to run both of those perks?? And if you gonna count how many perk slots remain while using detectives hunch AND small game for some reason, it's 8 survivor perks vs 2 or less killer perks
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Because, as allways, people will give you the excuse of "oh, it's just not worth running Detective or Small Game".
Even a map can do the job, but no, they just want easy games with meta perks, how else are you gonna loop a killer if you dont have Dead Hard, DS, etc?
They wont switch playstyles and try stealth to find the totems, they want chases. Too bad killers have adapted and some infinites are not a thing anymore, I bet if things like old pallet Heaven was still a thing people wouldnt be complaining about Ruin+Undying.
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Cleansing totems requires a team to be co-ordinated or lucky. Solo teams genuinely cannot coordinate because the game is literally designed around survivors having no inherent ability to work together, so they have to rely on pure luck.
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The problem is that cleansing totems with Ruin and Undying gives the Killer free pressure because you're not doing gens while they're chasing your teammates.
That's assuming the Killer let's you do totems because they don't have mobility or because they don't care - remember that they can see auras everytime someone comes near any totem. If they interrupt you, because they do have mobility and care about defending totems, you literally just wasted time - you'd have been better off Self-Caring in a corner because you'd at least get points.
The best thing you can to cleanse the totems is find both Hexes first and then cleanse one and then the other. That's still forcing you to spend a ton of time searching for totems though and potentially have you cleanse three Hexes to remove one effect.
Yea, it's not a gigantic deal on Killers without mobility or a power that can quickly end chases; but against a decently good mobility Killer you'll basically just lose if you cleanse totems.
The real counter to Undying is counter to what Survivors expect it to be - what they need to do is to ignore totems and split up on gens. Even Nurse and Blight can't be in multiple places at once; 3 simultaneous Tinkerer activations is the way to beat the build.
The issue with this is that the only people capable of this kind of coordination are SWF.
A solo queue Survivor - even if they understand all the above - can't control their teammates. They can't stop Nancy from cleansing dull totems and Self-Caring. Or Bill from pre-throwing God Pallet and then getting mindgamed while it's still up. Or Felix from getting downed right in front of a 70% gen.
If even ONE of their four teammates plays like that, it gives the Killer a big advantage - and all four of the Survivors can be like that, each wondering what the heck is going on.
Undying and Ruin aren't oppressive in and of themselves, but they contribute to pre-existing scenarios that were already a little busted. They're that last straw, not the entire weight.
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I can cleanse all totems by myself 2-3 minutes into a game depending on the map when I run small game. On top of that it's easier to do it solo rather then trying to figure out which spots on the map your teammates are talking about and where noed might be because you only cleansed 4 out of 5
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Undying is getting a fat nerf.
It's only a matter of time.
My survivor side wants it to be nerfed, but my killer side doesn't.
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So it's 3v1 for the first few minutes. After that killer is left with 2 perks or less for the rest of the game. If they want to come after me while I'm doing bones they are more then welcome. It means my teammates are free to do gens and killer's ruin and undying is useless for the next few minutes. I always play solo and knowing survivors I play with at least 2 of them jump on the gen as soon as the game starts. So no you don't need coordination to do all of the totems. On top of that there is no better feeling then cleansing all totems and then watching killer go " Dur..my noed no work...dur"
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OP included Deliverance as a meta perk 🤣
But no seriously I like never see Ruin/Undying. It doesn't work for me. It doesnt' work for streams. I only ever see it work in youtube videos.
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2-3min xDDDD? Please add me on steam I want you to teach me on custom game how to find this totems so quick on maps like midwich school, swamps, the game, underground complex.
Cleansing all totems take 70 seconds, plus you need to move from place to place which depends on the map can take a lot.
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Good for you. When I do the same I get sacrificed alongside everyone else because half of us were doing bones and not enough generators were popping.
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So you can spend 2-3 minutes running around cleansing totems and not doing gens or saves or chases and there are seriously people arguing that Ruin/Undying isn’t strong? And of course your solo teammates have no way of knowing that you’re doing this so if even one other person does the same thing the game is basically over.
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That's fair, but it's only a 50% chance a useful perk stays, because without the other hex undying has next to no use or purpose.
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sadly you are right meanwhile survivors meta combo are still as powerfull as always.
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Not really, I still run thrill on hex builds just cause I often don't notice the auras, plus the slowdown
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Totem spawns are predictable all you do is just use small game to scan if it's there as you run through the map. If you are a newer player use detectives hunch. Midvich does take the longest out of all maps but it can still be done under 3 minutes.
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You can still save, heal others or take hits for them. There is nothing stopping you. And if another survivor does a totem that's perfectly fine. Once I'll do a pass around the map to cover totem spots I can jump on a gen and eventually I'll see the leftover bones from the totem they did as I go through the map while working on other objectives.
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Its not really a win more combo the amount of time ruin get cleanse before my first chase is stupid. But you are right the combo reward you for applying pressure
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If you think the game being a 3v1 isn't a huge advantage for Killer, I don't know what to tell you.
Also I never said coordination was needed to do totems, you're confusing me with someone else.
I said that doing totems when you could instead be pressuring a gen is a waste of time. And you're agreeing with me by explaining your totem strategy with two teammates on separate gens.
In the scenario you describe, 'I know at least two teammates are on gens', the pressure on the Killer is coming from your teammates. Not you.
And you're better off joining them in pressuring generators. Especially since you can loop the Killer for minutes, as you don't need to worry about getting chased off your gen and downed quickly.
If the Killer commits to chasing you your teammates will just slam multiple gens during your chase and, if the Killer doesn't chase or commit to chasing you, in those 2-3 minutes it would have taken you to locate and cleanse totems you'll solo something like 2 and a half gens.
Assuming those two other teammates commit to their gens and that the Killer can only pressure one of them, they'll get at least one gen, maybe more.
That's 3.5-4.5 gens done because you and two of your 3 teammates did the Objective, instead of maybe 2 gens and as many totems as the Killer lets you get because you focused on the side Objective.
Ruin and Undying are just as worthless both ways, but the way where you commit to separate gens with your team will go faster and give the Killer less chances to snowball.
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It's not free pressure if it costs 2 perk slots.
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No, you didn't say anything about coordination being needed to cleanse totems. I misunderstood when I read the part about Nancy cleansing one of the totems. But I will happily give up 2-3 minutes when the game starts and killer has 7 gens to patrol to get rid of 2 of killer perks and remove that slowdown from a game. Ruin is no joke when it goes to work it's 200% regression for every second on all the gens that have progress. And getting pressured off gens at that point will hurt you a lot. @TheRockstarKnight
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I didn't say it was free pressure for the Killer.
The whole point of using Ruin and Undying is to help slow down the rate at which generators get done. If someone's cleansing totems, they're not doing gens and the perks are helping you.
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using small game still wastes a ######### ton of time looking for totems. And even if you find one, its still a high chance that you could be taking out ruin and having undying just spawn it at another totem. Time in games are precious and you can’t just go Willy nilly looking for totems for 10 minutes. And detectives hunch is even worse. If you have a killer who is also running tinkerer it’s almost impossible to actually finish the gen to even get detectives hunch. These are common things that any survivor deals with, I can tell you mainly play killer and barely survivor.
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If the killer isn't pressuring you off of generators, then Ruin does literally nothing. It only works when you get off a generator. So you can all wipe out the totems, or you can just commit to gens and actually loop the killer for a while. There's 4 of you, and ruin regresses at 50% of the speed it takes you to repair a generator, so unless you're getting stomped, you should stay ahead just by not wasting time screwing around off of generators. Or 3-genning yourself. The killer can still only be in one place at once. Well, aside from the Twins.
Of course, the point of all perks it to give you an advantage, so it's kind of a weird conversation to begin with. If a killer uses half of their perk slots, they get an advantage so long as they keep up relentless pressure on all 4 survivors! OP!
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I've had a similar point brought up to me before while it is true Undying and thrill of the hunt do similar jobs that they do it in different way.
Thrill of the hunt functions as active totem defence it slows people down and gives you a notification if someone's messing with your hexes however it requires you to do actual job of stopping them. It gives you the tools but you're meant to take action to stop it from getting destroyed.
This is the best if you plan on run noed or stackable hex perks
Undying is passive totem insurance it does very little in the way of actually stopping the totem from getting destroyed however it gives you a backup line of insurance of insurance if it does get destroyed without requiring any effort on your part however this comes with the risk of gambling whether or not Undying will the first thing destroyed. If it's destroyed first it's practically useless and you could potentially lose two of your perks extremely easily.
This is the best for single use non stackable Totem. Like haunted grounds or ruin.
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I don't know if they're going to change Undying or not, but in terms of timing they said they've got a formalized review process for new killers that started with Pyramid Head. Pyramid Head's balance tweaks were pushed out in a mid-chapter patch three months after he went live. Blight was released in September so my guess is the mid-chapter patch after the upcoming Twins chapter will have Blight's balance pass which would include his perks (Dragon's Grip, Hex: Blood Favor and Hex: Undying)
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1.) Built To Last is to Streetwise as Undying is to Thrill of the Hunt. Powercreep isn't 1 side exclusive, and it's definitely not too much of a problem
2.) Oh, multiple chances you say? About time Killer got one of those. Now the ratio of Survivor SCPs to Killer SCPs is 9:1 lovely!
3.) Please. Undying being a balance issue? The only reason you're right on that one is because RNG shouldn't be a major part of a perk (which is why Hex perks are a flawed design)
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In your 1st paragraph you say R+U gives the killer free pressure because you are doing totems and not gens while your mate gets chased. Killer spent 2 perk slots for that so it's not free. Once cleansed, the killer has 2 perks.
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No I said, it's a waste of a Survivor's time to cleanse totems when dealing with Ruin and Undying.
Nowhere did I say that Ruin and Undying gives anything to the Killer player for free.
The perks come at the cost of half your build and not only can be played around, but require you, as the Killer, to be able to pressure Survivors.
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"The problem is that cleansing totems with Ruin and Undying gives the Killer free pressure because you're not doing gens while they're chasing your teammates."
Those are your exact words. Since survivors are "wasting time" on totems, the killer is getting free pressure according to those words. The totems are only an issue because as you said, they used half their build on R+U. That time wasting came at a cost of 2 perk slots, hence it is not free. The whole point of the build is to waste time by forcing cleansing or by regression when getting pushed off of gens.
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It helps to get value out of pressure. When you have normally so much pressure, you need to slow down bc of ds. With ruin all gens are atleast at zero, after the survivor reset.
And not wasting time kicking gens makes target switch so much better.
The problem i have with it is the value in comparison to other perks. I dont want to think the best choice would be to use ruin/undying similar to old ruin.
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the problem isnt locating the totems, thats fairly easy on most maps. the problem is actually getting them, thanks to the aura reveal Undying provides the killer with.
on a coordinated SWF group, thats not a big problem of course - but for solo players this aura reveal can be devestating.
and as a cherry on top, the survivor just isnt told when their aura has been revealed, so the killer even gets the jump on them.
i dont think a nerf to the perk needs to be as drastic as Otz suggests (where everything that has respawned thanks to Undying gets destroyed when the Undying totem dies), but what they really need to do is to remove the aura reveal.
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I keep seeing BT is OP topics yet no one wants to run Insidious or Wraith.
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That's the Survivor giving the Killer free pressure by not managing their time efficiently, not the perks giving the Killer free value.
Like if a Survivor just loops around and dies at a hooked Survivor; you'd say they're giving the Killer free pressure with their poor choice of a loop. But you wouldn't say of that scenario that the Killer gets free pressure from downing a Survivor - they had to work at downing them, it wasn't free.
Same thing here. The Survivor is making a mistake they don't need to make by focusing on totem to cleanse a Hex that will take a least two cleansing actions to get rid of - that's them giving free pressure to the Killer.
I definitely could have worded that more clearly though, that's on me.
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That's complete nonsense. Is it theoretically possible to cleanse all totems in 3 minutes? Sure. But acting like it's something you can do with ease and regularity is ridiculous. Especially if you're against Undying. And then good luck doing that on maps with two levels or good hiding spots, like Game, Hawkins or Badham. Good luck doing that on big maps like Huntress' Dwelling or Temple. Good luck doing that on maps with huge open areas like Shelter Woods. Good luck doing that on a map with fences that go on for miles, like Haddonfield.
Also don't get seen by the killer ever. And if the killer happens to be near you, you can definitely cleanse a totem without them hearing. You won't have to stop and start over even if you were at second 13, right?
Ignoring all that, and pretending it only takes 3 minutes.. one survivor doing absolutely nothing but cleansing totems for 3 minutes could cost the game. With one in chase, that leaves two to work on gens. Hope that guy is good in a chase. With one hooked, that leaves one to do gens. Lol at getting out then.
Either you're a parody account or you have zero understanding of what it's like to play survivor, especially solo survivor.
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Also cleansing a totem takes what 14 seconds? That means, in order for you to cleanse in 2 minutes, for each totem you have exactly 10 seconds to travel to and find them. LOL
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