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Ruin, Undying, (Tinkerer)
This combination of perks has a nickname on the Korean server. It is called RuBulDdaem (the first few letters of each perk's name in Korean).
It is, at red ranks, seen in virtually every game. As it seems a necessity to say your rank/play time here, I am a Rank 1 Killer, Rank 1 survivor with 4000 hours in the game. Of those 4000 hours, about 60-65 percent has been spent as killer.
I'm curious if the devs are looking into this combination of perks and/or already have plans in place to reduce its effectiveness.
Before you come in saying "but the killer is spending 2-3 perks. That's a lot!", please understand that this combination of perks is the strongest possible combination currently available to killers. Not only that, it is too strong. The "why" of 'why it is too strong' has already been discussed multiple times on this forum. It really needn't be discussed further.
The issue, which the devs set the precedent for when they changed Ruin due to how often it was being used, is how often it is used at red ranks.
At red ranks, at least on the Korean server, it is the default setting. In the past 50 matches I've played, the only times I haven't seen a killer using these perks is when matching screws up and matches me with a killer who probably doesn't even have enough shards to buy Blight/unlock Undying.
Old nurse, First live version of Legion, Prayer Beads spirit, Old syringes (purple and red), Iridescent hatches (as a Huntress main, please change these to something not absurdly broken). All of these things were broken, creating an unfun game experience for those facing them. You can add RuBulDdaem to that list.
Comments
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Oh no, now killers are using the same perks in every game too
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Wow in 80% of games at red ranks there is DS I hope the devs are looking into this too. While they’re at it how about also Dead hard, borrowed time, iron will, and unbreakable.
See how ridiculous that sounds.
Thats what you sound like making this post.
Also keep in mind two of those killer perks can be erased from the match at the start of it. After that tinkerer becomes more of a “look what gen you’re about to lose”.
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Is DS an issue? For most people yes.
Is Ruin Undying also an issue? For most people yes.
I personally think both of these perks are problematic.
You can make complaints to one side without showing another balance issue with another side. We all know that DS is BS.
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How about DS Unbreakable? This combo has no counters it’s already been explained why it doesn’t have a counter. Almost every high rank survivor run these together. Hope the devs fix these soon unfun to go against.
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It does have Counters.
DS+Unbreakable has counters, but every time someone gives you a counter you move the goal post and cover your eyes and ears and ignore every possible advice people actually give.
- Go for someone else.
- Go for the unhooker.
- PATROL GENS.
- DON'T OPEN THE LOCKER!
SEE?! I just negated DS+Unbreakable.
Ruin+Undying doesn't compare to DS+Unbreakable.
Now, cover your eyes and ears and give me an excuse.
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Are you serious these “Counters” have been given a million times. Don’t open the locker? Does that sound like a counter? It sounds like you have to let someone escape because their is no counter. DS Unbreakable is more powerful than Ruin Undying that’s a fact. Ruin undying had two very straight forward counters. 1. Cleanse the totems literally can end this combo at the start of the match.2. Do gens the killer can’t be everywhere at once with how fast gens are it shouldn’t be a problem. I’ve went against these combos countless times and a DS Unbreakable squad is worst.
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Again, giving me excuses.
Why are you chasing the survivor that's going in the locker? This forum is riddled with terrible killers who whine about DS all the time and they all have simple solutions.
How do you think I deal with DS+Unbreakable at Rank 1 and still manage to 3-4k each game?
DS+Unbreakable doesn't mean a free escape, either eat the DS early, or go for someone else.
Jesus Christ.
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So, you mean the survivor norm of DS/UB/Adren/BT/SG/DH/SB, with little variation in red rank aside from SWF builds, isn't an issue?
They're called meta perks for a reason. The difference between survivor and killer is that atm, killer meta is hex based. 15 seconds a totem, minute 15 for all five, and you negate half the killers perk build. Big whoop. Survivors, on the other hand, are different. The killer is working against sixteen perks, usually the same. And it's trickier to deal with those than a hex.
Hell, you can simply ignore Ruin just by hammering out gens. It's not like old Ruin. Really not seeing why people complain about this combo. Just do bones.
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“DS+Unbreakable doesn’t mean a free escape, either eat the DS early, or go for someone else” This still sounds like no counter so I either get hit by DS or let the survivor escape? Sounds like a lose lose for the killer. Also Ruin+Undying doesn’t mean a free 4K, either cleanse the totems early, or do gens. See I can do it too and sounds less punishing for survivors than “Let them go or leave the locker”.
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Personally, I like Surge better unless I'm playing a high mobility Killer that can really capitalize on Tinkerer
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I chased someone else
I only saw Dead Hard all game. They didn't even get a gen done.
Uncounterable btw.
(Yes, I know that these perks are incredibly problematic when combined together, giving the killer little counterplay to them. However little counterplay is still counterplay. If Spirit has counterplay, so do these perks.)
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The problem is that the combo itself is actually fine when playing against high tier players. Against random solos it is pretty OP though. In general though, if you want to apply that same logic, when are we going to do something about every top tier survivor running DS+DH and some combination of Adrenaline/UB/BT and soon to be Power Struggle + Flip Flop?
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So the counterplay is eat the DS or give 1 minute of immunity to the survivor? Yeah, ok
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I was reading this response seriously until I noticed you were playing Pyramid Head with Ruin Undying then I bursted out laughing. I’ll try to hold myself back and give a clear and short response I’m sure everyone with understand. Pyramid Head DS Unbreakable. With these words alone piece together what I’m trying to say. “ok I can’t hold myself back Pyramid Head doesn’t get affected by DS or Unbreakable”. Also before the “You said DS Unbreakable has no counter just play Pyramid Head”. Oh yea 1 killer of the of the 22 killers counters it welp we should all be PH mains I guess. Seriously why are people trying so hard to disapprove of this it’s simple if Ruin Undying is a problem so is DS Unbreakable that easy to understand.
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Problem is that DS allows you to repair generator right next to killers face and jump straight into a locker when he tries to chase you off of it. There is no counter to that, you either. Waste time chasing the survivor, eat the DS OR let him repair the generator in your face. Most people suggest that DS-de activates once you go repair generator etc (you cannot repair gens while being tunneled)
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I literally used the torment for final judgement. That's it. No tunneling. No camping. Final Judgement. After like, 130 seconds of him being off the hook.
I used RuinDying yeah, because it's a strong combo. I don't use Tinkerer because imo that's when it's pushed over the edge. Imo RuinDying is healthy for the game because it's brought back totems into the meta better than NOED ever could.
My point isn't about RuinDying here, it's that DS/UB is as op omg uncounterabke pain as people make it out to be.
If you want I can upload some gameplay in future of me playing killer; Pyramid Head, freddy, Bubba, nurse, wraith, etc, to prove to you I don't tunnel people? I've been very open about it before so I don't see why I shouldn't be now. Just let me know and I'll record some for you tonight <3
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I disagree. While I think Undying might do too much, i.e aura reading on dull totems, I do not think that combo is overpowered.
It actually encourages fun and "good" gameplay. If you are a campy, tunneling Killer who doesn't spread out pressure, you won't get ANY value from it. However, if you spread out pressure and patrol gens, you will get value.
On the other hand, instead of using the DS example many have already done, I'll use Borrowed Time. BT is designed to allow the Survivor who gets unhooked to have a chance to escape if the Killer is camping. However, that is not how it is used in 99% of cases. Survivors use it to commit unsafe rescues with no punishment and there is NOTHING the Killer can do to stop BT from activating. It promotes bad plays and it should be looked into before Ruin/Undying/Tinkerer.
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I’m not saying DS Unbreakable is the end all be all of combos. I’m just trying to give reasons why it’s similar to Ruin Undying. Both are very strong combos we can all agree on this.
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Indeed we can. And personally I see no issue with ruin dying. Ds/ub is problematic but still has its counters.
Imo RuinDying gets too much when combined with Tinkerer. Particularly in solo when you can't coordinate Tinkerer procs or totem cleansing. Killers will spend upwards of 4 minutes at a single l t wall but as soon as they get a juicy Tinkerer proc it's off they go to defend the gens, forcing an age long battle of attrition that tge killer akways wins because given infinite time the killer always wins dbd.
I've been open about my stance on ds/ub, like I have been on Noed and now RuinDyingTink. They're combos used when the player is bad and can't apply pressure properly, or play loops properly. Regular ds? Fine. Regular RuinDying? Fine. It's when the extra perk is added to the combo that it's too much. Yes there are counters (which was my original point, there are counters to ds/ub) but no there aren't many, particularly if used by actual good players.
RuinDyingTink needs to be looked at, in my opinion.
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Tinkerer is a strange perk. It gives the killer a really important bit of information, and on high-mobility killers that information can be put to use (on low mobility killers the notification is just letting you know what gen is about to pop). Then, on top of that information, it also gives the killer the Undetectable status. That's actually kind of a lot for one perk to do. Discordance and Surveillance don't provide any secondary effects, they just give info. Trail of Torment gives the Undetectable status but with a yellow generator alerting everyone and a large cooldown.
I dunno, maybe I'm out of line with that observation.
(Ruin and Undying being hex perks makes them both vulnerable to bad RNG, which means they can be really powerful or totally useless due to factors completely out of the killer's control. In a way, that balances the combo because if half the time it's powerful and half the time it's weak then that averages out to being just right. Which is [BAD WORD]ing stupid, but that's RNG for ya.)
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I dont understand how you can have 4000 hours and actually see this combo as a problem....
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It's pretty obvious that OP wasn't being completely truthful. Claims to be huntress main and says that tinkerer gives him too easy wins? Much better perks out there to run with her. Also she's 110 killer so i don't know if ruin, undying is even that good because she cannot apply enough pressure due slow movement speed
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Finally a decent response. It seems most of the other posters haven't actually played against this combo.
However, I've actually experienced the opposite: promoting quite unfun game play. The four matches I mentioned above went the exact same way: The killer forced the next hook stage on the first survivor he hooked, and tunneled him to death. From the beginning of the game to the end there was little the other 3 survivors (me included) could have done to change the outcome.
Had we ignored totems and only done gens, that would have been 2 gens left, with ruin and Undying still up when the first player died.
Had one or more players looked for totems while the first player was being chased, hooked, camped, and tunneled to death, that would have been 3 to 4 gens left when the first player died.
Had we all rushed the hook to save the first player before he reached his next hook state, not enough totems would have been broken, (almost) no gens would have been done, extra people would have been injured, and this it might not have even been worth the time (depending on how long the saved players' next chase lasted).
All of these situations give huge advantages to a killer who simply camps his first hook and has 2 (or 3, with Tinkerer) perks equipped. This is not a rare situation. Every one of those matches I mentioned went this way. Again, I am not complaining about camping or tunneling. Whether people do or do not do that is of no concern to me. What concerns me is that there is entirely too much benefit to simply equipping those 2 (or 3) perks and letting them win the game for you.
Maybe the American/European meta is a bid behind. I'm not sure. I haven't been watching streams from those regions recently. But this situation I've mentioned above is the norm on the Korean server. And it isn't fun.
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I refuse to use Ruin, Undying, Tinkerer out of principle. After testing the combo and seeing how broken it is, I stopped using it completely. I don't use it on my Huntress.
I never used the nurse when she was brokenly overpowered. Now that she has been brought down to Earth, I use her.
I never used Legion when so many players were exploiting him when he first came out.
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1) Ok I do that then 2-3 survivors have DS active... what then (especially when I don't remember who's who at this point)
2) Ok... so what if I can't find that survivor (I won't spend time looking around when I know someone else is injured)
3) So if I find a survivor (with ds active) on a gen what then
4) And let that survivor get out and work on a gen till DS deactivates
I understand why DS is in the game... But 60 seconds is quite long
Unbreakable is easier to deal with... Slug enough and they'll use it
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If the Killer is hardcore camping, obviously you know to rush gens. Ruin won't get ANY value unless you leave your gen, so if he is camping, Ruin won't come into play, so I'm not sure I follow.
To me, it sounds like your problems lie in the way the Killer plays, not in his perk choice. Eliminating a Survivor as early as possible is an excellent strategy, provided said Survivor is a weak looper. A 3v1 is MASSIVELY against you. From what I've gathered, it sounds like the Killer would have won no matter what perks he was running.
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It is actually quite concerning that this post received so many upvotes.
First, I'd argue that it is closer to 90 percent of games at red ranks that have at least one DS. And DS is a perk that the devs have mentioned they are closely monitoring several times now.
If you want to complain about Borrowed Time, Dead Hard, Unbreakable, I don't know what to tell you. Lol.
This isn't a Killer VS. Survivor post. I only want things that destroy the balance of the game to be better balanced. I want ebony and green moris radically changed/out of the game. I want keys radically changed/removed. I want killers to be able to see if it is an SWF or not at the beginning of the match so they can plan accordingly. I want the Huntress' iridescent hatchets to be changed. I am not a killer main. I am not a survivor main. I want balance for both sides, because I play both sides fairly equally.
The combo being talked about in this post is something that needs to be changed. It gives too much reward for too little drawback. In other words, easy wins in games that the other side would have won on a level playing field.
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Ruin could definetly see a decrese on regresion but it should have something passive so the perks isnt completely dead once the totems down. I really hate hex perk design. Cleansed its utterly useless no other pupose literal dead perk. Undying massively reduces risk which is imo not the problem. Give hex perks meaningful passives or a post cleanse effect that gives you some value. In ruins case regression effects and normal regression is imprpved by X%
Tinkerer is strong but I would never really see it as an issue its a solid strong perk.
That being said lets look at the other side since only a fool nerfs one sides perk options without also addressing the other sides problematic perks. These perks exist in the same ecosystem afterall. Ds and unbreakable in this case its ds again continuing to be the perk that is every devs balancing nightmare. The lose lose sotuations ds creates is horrendously frustrating.
If you are drawing killer aggro that is massive with ds so taking away a survivours ability to do gens and hold up ds is key. This perk needs to be disabled the minute a gen is touched by that player untill next rehooking. Is it a programming nightmare likely but ds continues to cause havoc and is in dire need of fixing so a player can't just push gens so freely.
For those who say eating the stun isnt that bad let me remind you this game is a time trial. Every stun you eat is another X seconds a survivour is pumping into a gen. Theres a reason extra health state like effects remain dominant as the place to be in dbd.
Tldr high rank dbd will be dominated by regression stall based killer layouts and survivour extra health states. Nerfing one side is and let me stress this is absurdly narrow minded. What I have is suggestions. If you have the time to comment and you want change suggested ideas. If your happy with the balance as is then state it.
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You were doing so well until you decided to put words in my mouth, the opposite of that which I actually said, without actually reading my comment.
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I'm afraid I don't understand.
I merely remarked that Undying/Ruin/Tinkerer seemed to have very little to do with the games you mentioned. Without them, the outcome would've likely been the same.
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- This is pretty much the same as 2 boils down to what if you can’t find anyone else? what if the unhooker hid right away? What if unhooker can’t be found and all that is in front of you is a injuried easy target survivor?
- Patrolling gens doesn’t counter DS, what if the DS survivor is doing a gen in your face? Well have fun on that gen I’m gonna ignore my own objective and go the other direction.
- dont open locker? Oh so basically let them go and then give up any pressure you had and hope you find the other survivors.
All of this is assuming the survivor has DS unbreakable and the killer has no other knowledge of other survivors whereabouts. Your ego is off the charts
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Sure it can be good but one must realize it's a gamble I've seen many games were Undying and Ruin go down in the first few minutes of the game and the killer is only gaming with 2 perks. And considering how a map gamer can ruin the build.
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I wouldn't mind them taking a look at the strongest perks in this game, as long as they do that on both sides. But fair enough, as long as perks like DS, Borrowed Time, Unbreakeable, Sprint Burst or Dead Hard exist, I don't really see how that combo is so op.
It's just a bit harder on solo survivors because they have no totem counter, which of course sucks.
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Sorry, just to play devil's advocate: BT is easily counterable assuming you can count to 15. A lot of survivors in my (anecdotal) experience who try and rub it in your face will hang around trying to goad you into swinging, but you can just count down in your head and then hit them.
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How do DS + Unbreakeable have counterplay but then Ruin/Undying don't though?
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That would imply only a 20% usage rate...
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That's a terrible comparison though. Finding all 5 totems will take a survivor team far longer than 1 minute and 15 seconds, unless survivors have now learned a new ability that lets them teleport from one totem to another. The time to find totems is arguably longer. Obviously, with Undying and Ruin, survivors won't always need to cleanse all 5 totems, but I'm still pretty sure at average it takes more than 1 minute and 15 seconds time for the survivors to get rid of Ruin.
DS/UInbreakeable, coupled with Borrowed Time can waste even more time of the killer, but those instances are much more situational and in many cases require the killer to at the very least semi camp and tunnel.
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I agree.
Actually, the issue I feel they have is that they're too punishing to solo survivor play, meanwhile still countered in the same way as killer is in general countered: by having survivors split up around the map, pressuring multiple generators.
This has me feeling like it's more a problem with the ranking system (or lack thereof) putting survivors who don't know how to play optimally in a game against killers that are running a build designed entirely to go against the most organised and optimal teams.
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(Off topic question) for survivors gen rushing is considered toxic, but its their main objective. With killers their main objective to to kill. When killers Insta kill everyone, is that considered kill rushing? Is it toxic? If not than killers are hypocrites if so than what the [BAD WORD] is this logic here!
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It's strong and annoying, sure, but it is easily counterable.
If you see it every game, bring a map or Small Game and find the totems. You'll find them so fast and get rid of 2 Killer perks in a minute or two.
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Man alright everyone says they forget whos who especially when its a swf running the same character but its like y'all forget to look bottom left after a hit it only takes a second trust me this is how I avoid ds bottom left tells you who's healthy hurt or dieing and its only four ppl down there and guess what the names of the players don't change down there
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Pardon the ifunny watermark
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I'd rather they buff or change the other perks to make them as strong as this combo or at least more interesting
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You know you sound like an entitled survivor right? So let me get this straight, ruin, undying and tinkerer are a problem but decisive, dead hard, insta heals, flashlight stuns, borrowed time aren’t? If survivors are allowed all this then why cant killers have some good perks too. If you really played both, you wouldn’t be saying anything you just said, thank god your not the one to balance the game, it would be a killlers nightmare if we followed your logic
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Ruin Undying Tinkerer is stupid because the game just plays itself for the killer while they follow the neon lights (which I thought was the whole reason they reworked Ruin in the first place?). Put it on a killer that can get to gens quickly while also being good in chase like Nurse or Freddy and the game is downright miserable for survivors and hopelessly unwinnable for solo queue.
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Did you just bring up ds and dh lmao those are barely even useful, you act like you run into the 2% of people that actually make use of those perks, and even when they can make use of it you act like they can't backfire i.e getting exhausted and not dodging the attack some how and being left on the ground till it's useless, silence baby killer and let adults talk please
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I second the motion of iri head and beads, also while it's on the table the spirit needs altered period anyways, she has absolutely no draw backs to using her power and I'd say is easily at the ranks of gunslinger/pyra head
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Don't know how many will read this but I thought I'd give my take on Ruin/Undying.
I decided to play 20 games of Legion, 10 with Ruin/Undying and the other 10 with Surge/Tinkerer, the other two perks for both builds were Bamboozle and BBQ.
I found that I did worse with Ruin/Undying because Undying would almost always get broken instantly with Ruin following shortly after. One game the survivors got 3 gens done and got rid of both totems within 4 minutes of the match starting, (then again it was Haddonfield). I got only six wins with this build. Note a "win" for me is getting a 4k or a 3k with a survivor escaping through hatch.
The games I played with Surge/Tinkerer I did a lot better. Surge almost acts like a non-hex Ruin because by time I hooked a survivor and started chasing the next one all nearby gens were regressed a good amount. I won eight wins with this build.
Maybe it's just me but Surge/Tinkerer felt more fun to use. Take this info how you will, but I definitely prefer Surge/Tinkerer over Ruin/Undying.
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Insta-heals? Flashlight stuns? What?
Are you sure you aren't playing on a 2 year old version of the game?
And you've got things all turned around. It's precisely because I play both that I'd like balance for both sides. When I play killer, I want an equal chance to do well. When I play survivor, I want an equal chance to do well. Too many people on here like you who only have concern for one role.
Do yourself a favor and watch a Korean stream or two in the next few days; take a look at how stifling these perks are when used by killers who aren't worried about 'flashlight stuns' and 'Insta-heals'.
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Stop complaining killers don't have to tailor to you because their using a viable build.
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